Wheel Experts: one last question, honest !

MattC59

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Now, you're going to have to excuse my ignorance here, but Sapim state the following strengths:

Strength on middle section

CX-Ray - 1600 N/mm2
Lazer - 1500 N/mm2
Race - 1300 N/mm2

Why would I go for the Race on DS, bearing in mind the above figures ? I'm assuming that a higher strength means more tension can be applies to the spoke (within reason) and will therefore be stiffer stronger in use ?

Of course, I'm not a wheel builder, so that may be a dumb question :oops:

Edit: Ugo's answer about spoke diameters sort of answers the question about not using Lazers on the rear....... I think :?

That's not strength, that is "specific strength", you have to them multiply for the section.

Nobody has mentioned strength... I said stiffness of the spoke under tension and fatigue behaviour upon loss of tension, they have nothing to do with tensile strength

So, as I thought, a daft question then............
Ok, so are the Race going to build me a stiffer wheel then ?

MattC59

smidsy wrote:

Why bother asking for an expert to advise if you are not going to take the advice on board?

And you know that I'm not ?

cycleclinic

186lbs is 84kg. If the rim is stiff enough then Lasers will work fine. I am bit lighter (80-82kg) and ride on RR415 rims (not the stiffest rim ever made) 28H and I use them with Lasers. The wheels are actually quite stiff (good hub bracing angles help here) and they are reliable having done a fair few miles now. I would not suggest that this wheel would work for every 80kg rider though.

the archetype rim is very stiff so for a 84 kg rider a 28H build with Lasers on a DA 9000 hub (not sure of the WI hub dimesnions) is a very stiff wheel and more than capable of taking a 84kg rider. If you use Race spokes you get a stiffer wheel but whether you get longer spoke life will depend on the rider. The riding style of the OP will make a difference though. A rider that puts high lateral loads on the wheels by rocking the bike when climbing for example may benefit from Race spokes on DS. The Race and laser spokes are made from the same steel and wire stock so fatigue performace is very similar.

I do not like never rules, they never fit all. With wheels there is no such as never only pro's and con's the balance of which needs to be weighed up. Laser may not be the stiffest spoke but neither is the CX-ray and many builders do not hesitate to recomend those (please I know there are some who think CX-rays are stiffer than Lasers but in terms of lateral stiffness they not they have the same cross sectional area) and there will be many 84kg rider rolling around on Archetype built up with CX-rays with no issues.

I know there will be many who disagree with me but my practical experience suggest otherwise. Laser can be used on a rear wheel if the rim and hub selection are right for the rider, get it wrong and then trouble may rear it's head.

My suggestion is Race spokes DS rear and Laser NDS rear it is a safe combo. Use race both sides if you do not care about the small increase in weight.

MattC59

So how do the likes of Mavic/Fulcrum etc etc get stiff wheels with such a low spoke count ?

Very high spoke tension and heavier gauge spokes ?
Proprietry rims that are stiffer than the likes of the Archetype/SL23 etc etc ?
Bit of both ?

My Aeolus 5.0 ACC have 16 spokes front and rear and I've never had any issues with them (but that could just be down to a smooth riding style and a lack of power ). In fact, after a brief coming together of a spoke and rear mech which resulted in a bent spoke, the wheel was still true and just needed a new spoke.

majormantra

Large stiff spokes and stiff rims I would think. Spoke tension has little effect on wheel stiffness (within normal ranges).

ugo.santalucia

MattC59 wrote:

My Aeolus 5.0 ACC have 16 spokes front and rear and I've never had any issues with them (but that could just be down to a smooth riding style and a lack of power ). In fact, after a brief coming together of a spoke and rear mech which resulted in a bent spoke, the wheel was still true and just needed a new spoke.

Sounds like they're perfect and you don't need new wheels after all...

MattC59

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

My Aeolus 5.0 ACC have 16 spokes front and rear and I've never had any issues with them (but that could just be down to a smooth riding style and a lack of power ). In fact, after a brief coming together of a spoke and rear mech which resulted in a bent spoke, the wheel was still true and just needed a new spoke.

Sounds like they're perfect and you don't need new wheels after all...

N+1 applies to wheels as well (well........... N+2 does anyway )

the_jackalcp

What about using D light spokes (assuming you want black spokes that is)?

I am on the verge of sorting a Pacenti sl23 build and will be using a mix or Lasers and D light spokes. Granted at 70kgs and being quite tall they may suit my riding style better than a heavier rider however my builder was pretty sure that all Lasers would have been fine. The D lights will add a little more rigidity to the rear wheel.

cycleclinic

I would use just Laser's. D-light though won't hurt they about 40g heavier for 64 290mm spokes compared to Laser's.

I doubt you will have any rigdity issues with Laser's on SL23 rim. Today I built up an archetype on novatec hubs 28 spokes 2x rear with Laser's. The wheel is very stiff. the SL23 rim is as least as stiff as the Archetype.

yellowv2

I am considering a similar build but where are the Pacenti SL23's £85? I can only find them at £98!

mjbennett

I've got white Industries hubs, they are the best hubs I've ever had bar none. And that includes Chris King

2poc

I nice set of wheels i had built earlier this year to wet your appetite. DA9000 hubs, SL23 rims

MattC59

2POC wrote:

I nice set of wheels i had built earlier this year to wet your appetite. DA9000 hubs, SL23 rims

Nice !!! How are you finding the tubeless tyres on them ?
I notice they're 24:28, how heavy are you and what sort of riding do you do ?

Cheers........ M

2poc

I float between 84 and 86 kg. They're a very stiff wheelset for the weight. The tyres aren't hugely different in feel to normal tyres and good tubes however being able to run them at lower pressures and the lack of punctures do make them more comfortable, reliable, better in corners and certainly better descending. They're 23mm tyres, i'll go 25mm next time as i they'll suit the wider rim even more.

I ride in the uk, don't race. Reasonably fit - doing the Tour of Wessex and the Dragon Ride this year amongst other events.

2poc

Stats for you if you're interested

FRONT
Hubs: Dura Ace 9000 24
Rims: Pacenti SL23
Spokes: DT Rev 2 cross
Nipples: Brass
Rim Tape: Stans Yellow
Weight: 722

REAR
Hubs: Dura Ace 9000 28
Rims: Pacenti SL23
Spokes: DT Rev NDS, Comp DS 2 cross
Nipples: Brass
Rim Tape: Stans Yellow
Weight: 892

TOTAL WEIGHT: 1614 grams (ex skewers, tubes, sealant)