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Wheel Experts: one last question, honest !

MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
edited February 2014 in Road buying advice
It's come down to this, I have a decision to make !

I mentioned the Fulcrum Racing Zeros in a previous post, but can't quite shake the idea of some hand build wheels. So, the choice is;

Fulcrum Racing Zero
Or
White Industries T11 hubs with Pacenti SL23 and CX-Ray spokes, either 20:24 or 24:28

Weight is about the same, sub 1500g (with alloy nipples but may go brass) as is cost, and I weigh about 186 lbs.

Ignoring the usual argument that hand built scan be rebuilt and Fulcrums are expensive to rebuilt, which do I go for ??
Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved

Racing Zeros or Custom ? 27 votes

Fulcrum Racing Zero - Dark Label
29% 8 votes
White Industries with Pacenti SL23
70% 19 votes
«1

Posts

  • 23mm do give a very nice assured descending and cornering feel.
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    if you are not worried about re builds for accident or wear etc then it really doesn't matter, it ll be down to what you like the look of.
    fwiw my zeros are v nice wheels - rebuild aside - and with any decent tire, descend perfectly well.
    the zero f/h outer bearing is prone to wear in anything but dry weather.

    I wouldn't buy them again nor could I recommend them to anyone, so I say go for the HBs
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Anyone else ?
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • MattC59 wrote:
    Anyone else ?

    The Zero are as exciting as a couple of Dulcolax pills before going to bed
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    MattC59 wrote:
    Anyone else ?

    The Zero are as exciting as a couple of Dulcolax pills before going to bed

    Hmmmm........ That would certainly keep you on your toes !
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • russellorussello Posts: 102
    The handbuilts, because you've picked the parts, and you'll see few, if any of them on the road.

    If you get the Fulcrums and see some pacenti when out riding, I guarantee you will be kicking yourself. The other way round and you ride on safe in the knowledge the other fella has seen your wheels and thought "nice wheels"

    24:28, and away you go.
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,210
    I would personally go with the handbuilts (as I build my own :mrgreen: ). Not sure I would bother with the expense of the Sapim CX-Ray spokes but that is a personal preference. Dubious advantages for inflated cost IMHO.

    I am similar weight to you and 24:28 would definitely be the way to go.
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    I'm having similar thoughts about the CX-Ray spokes, it would appear that Lasers will cost me about £30 or so less and will weigh about the same. So, that £30 gets me a different profile and the dubious aero benefits..... Which I probably don't need !
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • oviovi Posts: 396
    These are mine if it helps:
    hi1q.jpg [/url13co.jpg
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    ovi wrote:
    These are mine if it helps:
    hi1q.jpg [/url13co.jpg

    Yum !

    How do you find them ?
    Are the T11 hubs a quiet hub, or noisy like CK or Hope ?
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • northpolenorthpole Posts: 1,499
    MattC59 wrote:
    MattC59 wrote:
    Anyone else ?

    The Zero are as exciting as a couple of Dulcolax pills before going to bed

    Hmmmm........ That would certainly keep you on your toes !

    More than a bit harsh. I've had mine for a few years and I'd be happy to recommend them - I've found them to be a super wheelset. No clue where the negativity is coming from but not my experience. And the bright red spokes are a breath of fresh air to my mind in the midst of the black everything brigade! (Not sure if they are still available with these).

    Peter
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 5,990
    Never choose alloy nips over brass. Ever.
    Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    If you ever get your wheels wet, go with brass nips.
  • oviovi Posts: 396
    @mattc59 the sound is fine and is quieter than hope with a quality feel. Bearings can be bought at any bearing shop as long as you know the size you need. I think Chris King need their own bearings if ever they wear out.
  • oviovi Posts: 396
    Your bike will look great with a set of handbuilt wheels, tan wall tyres might be worth a try too.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I use alloy nipples in most but not all of my personal wheels granted they are probably seized by now I have no issues with these wheels. Brass nipples after a while can become difficult to turn if ridden in the wet as well and if they are they require some patience with the addition of plus gas but it does not always work. I have found wheels with brass nipples to be un-truable because of this.

    The Pancenti rim from the distributor is only showing in 20H and 32H drilling so unless the builder you are using imports them direct then you might have a problem with the drillings you want.

    Lasers and CX-rays weight the same as each other. If a CX-ray can be safely used so can a Laser spoke. There is a new ryde rim the Pulse comp due out which is as wide internally as the SL23 nearly as deep but a bit lighter. Personally due to the supply issues with Pancenti SL23 rims I do not bother with them.

    WI hubs are not something you see everyday for that reason alone they are worth a look.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Why get Wi hubs when you could have DA or Royce? If the budget is there, those two would be on my short list. Also archetypes over pacenti. Lasers if desired I suppose.
  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    If you ever get your wheels wet, go with brass nips.

    Never choose Sapim Lazers at 186lbs either (at least not on the back wheel)
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    styxd wrote:
    If you ever get your wheels wet, go with brass nips.

    Never choose Sapim Lazers at 186lbs either (at least not on the back wheel)

    Why ?
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Why get Wi hubs when you could have DA or Royce? If the budget is there, those two would be on my short list. Also archetypes over pacenti. Lasers if desired I suppose.

    WI are quality hubs, get excellent reviews, are lighter then DA or Royce (although there is supposed to be a lightweight Royce in development) and you don't see many about.

    Why Archetypes over Pacenti ?

    Your Lasers comment seems a little meh, why's that ? I mentioned Lasers as they're no lighter than CX-Ray, but save a fair amount of money.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    Not durable or stiff enough. At 186lbs, there is little to no point in picking flimsy spokes to try and save weight.
  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    MattC59 wrote:
    Why get Wi hubs when you could have DA or Royce? If the budget is there, those two would be on my short list. Also archetypes over pacenti. Lasers if desired I suppose.

    WI are quality hubs, get excellent reviews, are lighter then DA or Royce (although there is supposed to be a lightweight Royce in development) and you don't see many about.

    Why Archetypes over Pacenti ?

    Your Lasers comment seems a little meh, why's that ? I mentioned Lasers as they're no lighter than CX-Ray, but save a fair amount of money.

    WI hubs look great, doubt many over here have much experience of them, Try some forums from across the pond.

    Those pacenti rims are about £100, archetypes are half the price and pretty much identical? Rims are disposable, not much point in speding £100 on them.
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    styxd wrote:
    MattC59 wrote:
    Why get Wi hubs when you could have DA or Royce? If the budget is there, those two would be on my short list. Also archetypes over pacenti. Lasers if desired I suppose.

    WI are quality hubs, get excellent reviews, are lighter then DA or Royce (although there is supposed to be a lightweight Royce in development) and you don't see many about.

    Why Archetypes over Pacenti ?

    Your Lasers comment seems a little meh, why's that ? I mentioned Lasers as they're no lighter than CX-Ray, but save a fair amount of money.

    WI hubs look great, doubt many over here have much experience of them, Try some forums from across the pond.

    Those pacenti rims are about £100, archetypes are half the price and pretty much identical? Rims are disposable, not much point in speding £100 on them.

    Fair points.
    Archetypes are £55, SL23s are £85.
    SL23s are slightly wider, deeper and lighter, they also have a slightly thicker braking surface and wear indicators........ and like the hubs, you don't see that many of them :D
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    styxd wrote:
    Not durable or stiff enough. At 186lbs, there is little to no point in picking flimsy spokes to try and save weight.

    Really ? That seems contrary to everything else that I've read.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • Exactomundo. Nothing wrong with WI hubs at all, just stating a preference for more readily available products in the UK. Hub weight is moot anyway. Pacenti are good but so are Archetypes for 1/2 the price. At 185lbs the longevity of laser spokes might be a problem. Sapim Race or similar with a decent spoke count would be more durable.
  • Matt,

    There isn't a final answer or correct way.

    1) Many respected builders don't want to build rear wheels with Spokes having a round section of less than 1.7 mm, because they bend and twist more resulting in poor stiffness and loss of tension over time, which in turn cause them to snap. Some do use them and if the rider is not particularly powerful or heavy they might last

    2) I have never used the Pacenti, but at twice the price of an Archetype in this country, you are paying a lot of money in import and distribution, it's not so pricey in the US... Archetype is a rim which is pretty much perfect in every respect and it also looks better. I still have to hear a bad word about them.

    3) White Industries: probably very good hubs, the distribution is what it is... I suggested you do a bit of research on how easy it is to get hold of a freehub in case you swap groupset or in case it fails... if you are happy with the results, why not?

    4) Alloy nipples: it's an old rat... but they do seize if the wheel is not maintained to perfection and they do seize fast if it is ridden on wet or salty roads. The alloy also becomes brittle over time and fails regardless of your maintenance. The issue has been known for over a decade and attempts to revamp them with new evidence showing the opposite is a bit pointless really. That said, if you are prepared to accept the consequences, why not? There is a wapping 40 grams to save there...
  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    MattC59 wrote:
    styxd wrote:
    Not durable or stiff enough. At 186lbs, there is little to no point in picking flimsy spokes to try and save weight.

    Really ? That seems contrary to everything else that I've read.

    It was probably all lies :D

    Maybe you could go for Lazer NDS, Race DS. I'd just go for race all round due to cost and durability.

    The fact is, you're 186lbs, there is no point and no gain to be had from trying to save a few grams in your wheels. Stiffness is what you should prioritise.
  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Now, you're going to have to excuse my ignorance here, but Sapim state the following strengths:

    Strength on middle section

    CX-Ray - 1600 N/mm2
    Lazer - 1500 N/mm2
    Race - 1300 N/mm2

    Why would I go for the Race on DS, bearing in mind the above figures ? I'm assuming that a higher strength means more tension can be applies to the spoke (within reason) and will therefore be stiffer stronger in use ?

    Of course, I'm not a wheel builder, so that may be a dumb question :oops:

    Edit: Ugo's answer about spoke diameters sort of answers the question about not using Lazers on the rear....... I think :?
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • MattC59 wrote:
    Now, you're going to have to excuse my ignorance here, but Sapim state the following strengths:

    Strength on middle section

    CX-Ray - 1600 N/mm2
    Lazer - 1500 N/mm2
    Race - 1300 N/mm2

    Why would I go for the Race on DS, bearing in mind the above figures ? I'm assuming that a higher strength means more tension can be applies to the spoke (within reason) and will therefore be stiffer stronger in use ?

    Of course, I'm not a wheel builder, so that may be a dumb question :oops:

    Edit: Ugo's answer about spoke diameters sort of answers the question about not using Lazers on the rear....... I think :?

    That's not strength, that is "specific strength", you have to them multiply for the section.

    Nobody has mentioned strength... I said stiffness of the spoke under tension and fatigue behaviour upon loss of tension, they have nothing to do with tensile strength
  • smidsysmidsy Posts: 5,273
    Why bother asking for an expert to advise if you are not going to take the advice on board?
    Yellow is the new Black.
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