Heart rate - turbo vs the open road??

I am the god of hell fire

Hi

OK firstly I accept that training with heart rate is a veritable feast of discussion and opinion

However, Ive been using a HR monitor for absolutely ages, it works for me and I think Ive worked out how my ticker ticks

The thing is Ive noticed, consistantly noticed, that for any given perceived exertion my HR on the turbo is pretty well 10-15 beats per minute lower than when Im out on the road and I just cant work it out

Or the other way round as I leave town and plod up the hill to cycling nirvava my HR will indicate that Im working moderately hard even though I feel great

I use the same monitor on the bike and turbo

All I can think of is that riding the bike gives me an endorphin rush which puts up my heart rate

When working at the top end I also notice the same phenomena, flogging myself on the bike gets me to a max HR 10 higher than flogging myself to peri cardiac arrest on the turbo

Anyone clever care to comment please?

cougie

I'm not clever - but I've noticed the same. It is a lot hotter inside - that might be a factor - but a turbo is a very different situation from being on the open road.

gotwood25

I found it the same, put it down to perceived effort on the turbo was a lot higher than being on the road. On the road you have that many more distractions that you are probably working harder than you think.

On the turbo, all there is to think about is the work and so it feels harder for a comparative HR.

Thats the way I see it anyway. Using Sufferfest vids, very loud music or a Trainer Road plan helps to take the mind off just pedalling and I find when I do this I get it to more of a normal perceived effort/HR.

diamonddog

No wind resistance etc on the turbo, push a bit harder when you are on it and you will get the same/similar HR reading.

imposter2.0

I am the god of hell fire wrote:

The thing is Ive noticed, consistantly noticed, that for any given perceived exertion my HR on the turbo is pretty well 10-15 beats per minute lower than when Im out on the road and I just cant work it out

That's not unusual. Use your HR as an indicator, nothing more.

I am the god of hell fire wrote:

Or the other way round as I leave town and plod up the hill to cycling nirvava my HR will indicate that Im working moderately hard even though I feel great

HR will only tell you how fast your hard is beatiing - nothing more. As you noticed above, it will give usually you a rough approximation of effort level, but nothing more than that. If you 'feel' like you are working hard, then you almost certainly are - regardless of HR.

alihisgreat

I can get my HR up on the turbo no problem. You guys obviously aren't working hard enough

taon24

I am guessing there are two effects.

on the road you are cooled by passing air. This cooling effect may cause a lower perceived exertion. Just a theory.
Alternatively you are warmer when cycling on the road (more layers, perception that you should be wrapped up due to cold ouside) than on the turbo (planning to get sweaty). A warmer surface temperature will lead to a higher heart rate, especially if you are well covered so have just the face to radiate off heat.
Of course if you had the same problem in summer then my theory would be rubbish.

Roads also tend to cause a bigger variation in speed/cadence. You have to stop at junctions/traffic lights etc. On a turbo you can sit at HR X for hours, building up a high percieved exertion, while you will see a bigger variation on the road. On the road you slow for a junction, get a recovery, then cycle off feeling better than if you had been equally paced. Your heartrate would be more variable, but could have a similar average.

damocles10

There's also head/cross/tail winds outside which certainly would have an effect on exertion and HR.

bisoner

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

I can get my HR up on the turbo no problem. You guys obviously aren't working hard enough

+1

Trainerroad + Sufferfest videos and I'm struggling to keep my HR in check and that's with a large fan blowing at me with a back door open to increase the flow of cool air.

imposter2.0

bisoner wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

I can get my HR up on the turbo no problem. You guys obviously aren't working hard enough

+1

Trainerroad + Sufferfest videos and I'm struggling to keep my HR in check and that's with a large fan blowing at me with a back door open to increase the flow of cool air.

If you are trying to keep your HR down, then it is either set too low, or you are working harder than you should be. Or possibly HR is not much use as a guide - as said earlier.....

bisoner

Imposter wrote:

bisoner wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

I can get my HR up on the turbo no problem. You guys obviously aren't working hard enough

+1

Trainerroad + Sufferfest videos and I'm struggling to keep my HR in check and that's with a large fan blowing at me with a back door open to increase the flow of cool air.

If you are trying to keep your HR down, then it is either set too low, or you are working harder than you should be. Or possibly HR is not much use as a guide - as said earlier.....

I'm focusing on keeping the power output where it should be according to my FTP. I've set it based on doing the 2 x 8 min test on TR. 90% of the average power accross the two efforts is my calc'd FTP - which were within 1 watt of each other. Doing the SF videos is now very hard. When it's hurting, I'll usually look at the HR and that confirms I'm close to cracking.

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/689245-8-Minute-Test

alihisgreat

bisoner wrote:

Imposter wrote:

bisoner wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

I can get my HR up on the turbo no problem. You guys obviously aren't working hard enough

+1

Trainerroad + Sufferfest videos and I'm struggling to keep my HR in check and that's with a large fan blowing at me with a back door open to increase the flow of cool air.

If you are trying to keep your HR down, then it is either set too low, or you are working harder than you should be. Or possibly HR is not much use as a guide - as said earlier.....

I'm focusing on keeping the power output where it should be according to my FTP. I've set it based on doing the 2 x 8 min test on TR. 90% of the average power accross the two efforts is my calc'd FTP - which were within 1 watt of each other. Doing the SF videos is now very hard. When it's hurting, I'll usually look at the HR and that confirms I'm close to cracking.

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/689245-8-Minute-Test

I do Sufferfest by speed (proxy for power).. I think a few people fall into the 'perceived effort' trap and don't realize that physically they are capable of going a lot harder during intervals.

damocles10

Imposter wrote:

bisoner wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

I can get my HR up on the turbo no problem. You guys obviously aren't working hard enough

+1

Trainerroad + Sufferfest videos and I'm struggling to keep my HR in check and that's with a large fan blowing at me with a back door open to increase the flow of cool air.

If you are trying to keep your HR down, then it is either set too low, or you are working harder than you should be. Or possibly HR is not much use as a guide - as said earlier.....

I think HR is a good guide, it's all about the conditions set, accurate information and how you respond to that.

imposter2.0

damocles10 wrote:

I think HR is a good guide, it's all about the conditions set, accurate information and how you respond to that.

It's probably ok for monitoring steady threshold or sub-threshold efforts, but pretty useless for anything beyond that..

damocles10

Really? I have had really good results ( competitive races ) using HRM. Power output is more accurate but I would not dismiss heart rate entirely.

alihisgreat

damocles10 wrote:

Really? I have had really good results ( competitive races ) using HRM. Power output is more accurate but I would not dismiss heart rate entirely.

I think you have good results because you are a strong rider, not because you use a HRM

imposter2.0

damocles10 wrote:

Really? I have had really good results ( competitive races ) using HRM. Power output is more accurate but I would not dismiss heart rate entirely.

In relative terms, I've had good results (competitive races) by training with HR too. I'm not dismissing HR at all - but it is still a fairly poor guide to effort for anything at or beyond threshold..

damocles10

OK fair point....when I raced we didn't have PM's so HRM was the best gauge for measuring exertion. Times change and tech moves forwards.

davidof

I think just churning away on the turbo it is difficult to judge the effort and hence maybe difficult to go as hard as you might. Here's an graph of a recent set of VO2Max 4x2minute intervals and my Max HR was 182, which is around what it is on the road on a climb. If I train with power my HR follows what it does on the road under intense effort.



there was a problem with the HR strap for the first set.

This is a set of 2x8x45 second intervals



The interesting thing here is the slowly rising background heart rate showing I was getting tired towards the end, or not recovering fully between efforts. Both these Turbo rides (and others) were hard efforts. The result was I buried a guy on a long cross country ski today who was whipping my ass last ski season.

andyeb

I see the same with HR. It's a decent way of pacing yourself on long rides, but as you say, there are variations between turbo and road. I even find variations at different times of day - in the morning my HR rises easily, both on the turbo and out on the road, whereas during the afternoon and evening I have to work much harder for the same HR.

I think there a number of turbo vs. road factors:

- out on the road, you are engaging your core muscles in order to balance and pedal, while holding onto handlebars that can twist. This instability means you work harder for the same power output. Rollers may be better from this point of view, but I've not plucked up the courage to try them.

- out on the road there are far more distractions and things to think about. The sensation of speed and freedom is a great motivator to work harder, without really noticing it.

- most turbos resistance settings are linear with speed (unless you have a more expensive fluid model), whereas air resistance out on the road goes up with the square of the speed. In other words there's a bigger jump in effort to go from 22 to 24 mph on the road than on the turbo.

- when out on the road, your speed subconsciously feeds into your perceived exertion. Have you ever done a new route with a deceptive long-drag climb, looked down and seen your HR much, much higher than you expected? This has happened to me quite a lot.

Finally, I've noticed that ambient temperature and cooling make a huge difference on the turbo - if I forget to switch the fan on before starting an interval session, my HR will noticeably trend upwards when I review the data after the workout.

HR is a great tool and much more accessible than power to the average joe, on cost grounds. But it does have it's limitations - for example it's not much good for pacing short interval sessions. For this I tend to use a combination of recording my turbo resistance levels and speed read from the rear wheel via a speed/cadence sensor. I then use the HR data after-the-fact to see how I performed compared to previous sessions and to view overall trends during the workout.

Max Bridges

Heart rate is a very good tool, particularly when combined with power. The key is in comparing the power heart rate relationship like for like. This is difficult to use in conjunction with power outdoors where conditions, terrain, and power output are so variable.

Heart rate is probably most useful training indoors where you can control things like temperature. But even then you must be careful to make sure you are comparing like for like.

eg if you compare 2 - 20 minute sessions of similar power several days apart, and you see your power heart rate ratio has improved. Does this show an improvement in fitness? Possibly, but, was the warm up the same for both efforts? If one warm up was done at a much higher power this would cause heart rate during the 20 minute effort to be higher than if the warm were more gentle. Was the temperature higher or lower? Were you cooled as efficiently? There are many things to take into account and you need to see consistent trends.

However, if you do control everything, the power heart rate ratio can be very useful.