Ultegra 6770, 11 speed upgrade help.

jus71n
jus71n Posts: 138
edited February 2016 in Workshop
Morning all,

I've had the bright idea of upgrading my Ultegra Di2 6770 to 11 spd.

To do this (after some reading) I bought a 6870 RD, 11 speed cassette, 11 speed chain

I have a couple of things I require some help with,

Firstly, when fitting the 11 sped cassette to my Mavic cosmic carbone SL (2012) do I remove both the shims I was using on the 10spd?

Secondly, I've installed and connected up the RD, but it does not respond to gear change buttons, Is this because I'm on the oldest firmware on my Di2? (plugged the old RD in and it shifts fine)

Thanks for any help
S-Works Tarmac Disc Di2 2017 :shock:

Felt AR3 Di2 :) (6870 11spd upgrade) 2012 - Now gone.

Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disc Ultegra 2016
«1

Comments

  • majormantra
    majormantra Posts: 2,094
    1. Yes.

    2. Not sure, but probably. You will likely either have to buy the interface or find a shop that has one and use it in exchange for ££/biscuits/pints.

    I take it you're working on the assumption that it's the mechs that determine the number of available gears? I believe that's right but I've not actually tried the combination you've got.
  • jus71n
    jus71n Posts: 138
    Yes, I believe that's the case with the rear mechs, or thats what I'm hoping.

    Ordered a loan unit from Tuneyourdi2, better than LBS as they wanted £40 to to update the firmware, where as this way I can set it up better for me (if it works)
    S-Works Tarmac Disc Di2 2017 :shock:

    Felt AR3 Di2 :) (6870 11spd upgrade) 2012 - Now gone.

    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disc Ultegra 2016
  • jus71n
    jus71n Posts: 138
    Success! 11 speed 6870rd working on 6770 system
    S-Works Tarmac Disc Di2 2017 :shock:

    Felt AR3 Di2 :) (6870 11spd upgrade) 2012 - Now gone.

    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disc Ultegra 2016
  • majormantra
    majormantra Posts: 2,094
    So what did you do?
  • jus71n
    jus71n Posts: 138
    Bought 6870rd, 11 speed cassette, chain.

    Fitted the cassette with no spacers, and installed the new RD, but at first there was no response when pressing rear shift buttons.

    so found a place called tuneyourdi2 and hired a shimano sm-pce1 to update firmware, once all firmwares were upto date it works perfectly (the shimano software said there was an error as a 6770FD won't work with a 6870RD) but it works just fine.
    S-Works Tarmac Disc Di2 2017 :shock:

    Felt AR3 Di2 :) (6870 11spd upgrade) 2012 - Now gone.

    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disc Ultegra 2016
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    And is it worth all that for the extra gears?
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • jus71n
    jus71n Posts: 138
    All that, the cost wasn't that bad, once I've sold the 6770RD, and rear cassette (which was almost new) it will have cost £100 maybe, also enjoyed the experience of fitting it and setting it up, as for the extra gear? Who knows.
    S-Works Tarmac Disc Di2 2017 :shock:

    Felt AR3 Di2 :) (6870 11spd upgrade) 2012 - Now gone.

    Cannondale Synapse Carbon Disc Ultegra 2016
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    It would look like it was worth it!!
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • DiscoBoy
    DiscoBoy Posts: 905
    smidsy wrote:
    And is it worth all that for the extra gears?

    Don't forget that the rear D weighs 21g less, has the multiple shift function, and isn't as bulbous ;)
    Red bikes are the fastest.
  • cojones
    cojones Posts: 131
    jus71n wrote:
    Yes, I believe that's the case with the rear mechs, or thats what I'm hoping.

    Ordered a loan unit from Tuneyourdi2, better than LBS as they wanted £40 to to update the firmware, where as this way I can set it up better for me (if it works)

    Glad I could help! ;-)

    Enjoy that extra gear!

    Matt - tydi2.com
    http://www.tuneyourdi2.com
  • mitchgixer6
    mitchgixer6 Posts: 729
    The new Ultegra deraillieur looks way better than the old one. So from that view alone I'd say 'all' that was worth it!

    Enjoy.
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    mitchgixer6 wrote:
    The new Ultegra deraillieur looks way better than the old one.

    That sums it up really - a complete waste of time and money.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • shrimpchip
    shrimpchip Posts: 7
    jus71n wrote:
    Bought 6870rd, 11 speed cassette, chain.

    Fitted the cassette with no spacers, and installed the new RD, but at first there was no response when pressing rear shift buttons.

    so found a place called tuneyourdi2 and hired a shimano sm-pce1 to update firmware, once all firmwares were upto date it works perfectly (the shimano software said there was an error as a 6770FD won't work with a 6870RD) but it works just fine.

    I just tried the same - have the 6870 RD, 6770 FD. I borrowed a PCE, all firmware updated for all components, but when both are plugged into the system nothing works. When I disconnect one of the derailleurs, the other works, and vice versa. Called Shimano and they essentially said I have to buy the 6870 FD and that the forums are not correct - cannot mix the components.

    Did you have to do anything in sequence? I get the same compatibility message, but could not get anything to work.
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    shrimpchip wrote:
    Called Shimano and they essentially said I have to buy the 6870 FD and that the forums are not correct - cannot mix the components.

    That's rubbish but you can't blame them for wanting to sell you the rest of the 6870 kit. I know as I have done this to my bike and my GF's, recently. Nothing works until you have v2.2 uploaded, though.

    Here's what to do...

    Download v2.2 this from the eTube website. It's a big file and takes quite a while to download.

    Pull the lead off the battery holder and remove the battery. The ECU is in this and this needs v2.2 first. Follow the instructions on screen to upload the latest OS.

    Once you have updated the battery holder, disconnect PCE, re-connect the bike's cable and re-fit the battery.

    Plug the PCE into a spare port in one of the shifters. You can access these by pulling up the rubber hood and removing the little plastic bung in the spare port. These ports are for climbing shifters or aero bar switches. Once connected, you will get a list of all components that are connected and they will show as yellow on the screen. Work your way through the list, updating each component one by one. Once done, they all show as green.

    You will get a message saying that some functions of your 6870 rear deraileur may not work. Ignore this, they do.

    With v2.2 uploaded you can also change shift speeds, add 'press and hold' functions and re-assign switch functions.

    I have mine set as Fast changes, press and hold is 3 cogs across and I have my switches set as 'paddle shift' mode. The two front buttons control the FD and the two rear paddle type buttons control the RD. This is really nice to ride with. Left hand makes it easier, right hand makes it faster.
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    smidsy wrote:
    mitchgixer6 wrote:
    The new Ultegra deraillieur looks way better than the old one.

    That sums it up really - a complete waste of time and money.

    How so?

    The only thing that is a waste of time or money is having to re index ye olde mechanical gears when the cables stretch/stick every so often, or every ride, if using Campag.

    Some people thought colour tv was a waste of time and money. It seems to be catching on though.
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • shrimpchip
    shrimpchip Posts: 7
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    shrimpchip wrote:
    Called Shimano and they essentially said I have to buy the 6870 FD and that the forums are not correct - cannot mix the components.

    That's rubbish but you can't blame them for wanting to sell you the rest of the 6870 kit. I know as I have done this to my bike and my GF's, recently. Nothing works until you have v2.2 uploaded, though.

    Here's what to do...

    Download v2.2 this from the eTube website. It's a big file and takes quite a while to download.

    Pull the lead off the battery holder and remove the battery. The ECU is in this and this needs v2.2 first. Follow the instructions on screen to upload the latest OS.

    Once you have updated the battery holder, disconnect PCE, re-connect the bike's cable and re-fit the battery.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Problem, as I think you identified or along the same line is with the current release of the SM-BR1 firmware (released July 14, 2014) which mine was updated to. every eTube version prior to 2.6 won't detect or has problems detecting the battery holder then prompts to upgrade the eTube software to the latest version. Also, Shimano doesn't give any options to revert back to older firmwares. I went through the paces on prior versions of eTube and for other readers out, v2.6 stops you in your tracks if you try and mix the 6770 fd with 6870 rd. Meaning, it gives a warning screen about compatibility issues, then does not allow you to continue, only allows you to check connection. Older versions, give you the compatibility warning, but allows you to customize...

    I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a battery holder with an older version (which most shops should have since this firmware was just released).

    Will verify and report back.
  • shrimpchip
    shrimpchip Posts: 7
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    shrimpchip wrote:
    I have mine set as Fast changes, press and hold is 3 cogs across and I have my switches set as 'paddle shift' mode. The two front buttons control the FD and the two rear paddle type buttons control the RD. This is really nice to ride with. Left hand makes it easier, right hand makes it faster.

    Interesting setup. Makes sense. Will have to try it, and see if I can get used to it. Thanks for the suggestions.
  • gaddster
    gaddster Posts: 401
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    smidsy wrote:
    mitchgixer6 wrote:
    The new Ultegra deraillieur looks way better than the old one.

    That sums it up really - a complete waste of time and money.

    How so?

    The only thing that is a waste of time or money is having to re index ye olde mechanical gears when the cables stretch/stick every so often, or every ride, if using Campag.

    Some people thought colour tv was a waste of time and money. It seems to be catching on though.

    I've done my Campag mechanical old fashioned gears once, when it was first setup. If you have to keep doing it then you're doing something wrong to start with so in that case electronic is probably best for you. Dumbed down and all that..

    Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any better, it's usually just another way of screwing more money out of people for stuff they're made to think they need.
    ARTHUR
    "Hello oh great one"
    LARRY
    "Are you talking to me or my ass?"
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    You could try updating with your 6770 plugged in, then plug the PCE direct into the 6870 RD to load that up then fit the 6870 RD.

    If Shimano has changed the OS to stop you mixing components then that is poor.
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    smidsy wrote:
    mitchgixer6 wrote:
    The new Ultegra deraillieur looks way better than the old one.

    That sums it up really - a complete waste of time and money.

    I d never have Di2 but if I ever did, then this is the sort of thing I d play around with.... its only money and sounds like a pretty good learning curve to me :)
  • shrimpchip
    shrimpchip Posts: 7
    edited August 2014
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    You could try updating with your 6770 plugged in, then plug the PCE direct into the 6870 RD to load that up then fit the 6870 RD.

    If Shimano has changed the OS to stop you mixing components then that is poor.

    Thanks for the suggestion Bar Shake. Tried that initially. doesn't work, but I got the system to work after swapping out the battery holder for an older version.

    So here's my official finding (also credit to Diy2diy that posted on http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-everything-you-need-to-know/). I'm pretty confident after my last test that resulted in my system working. Disclaimer - Worked for me, follow at your own risk though...

    If you want to upgrade to 11 speed di2 - as posted you really only need to upgrade
    1. 6870 Rear derailleur
    2. Cassette
    3. Chain
    4. Make sure you have a wheelset that supports an 11 speed cassette.

    HOWEVER - None of the LBSs in the area knew anything about this, let alone too many techs with a lot of experience or software understanding so most will just reply - "I guess you have to get the new FD" or "you have to buy the FD". SO, if you or your LBS decides to perform firmware updates or make modifications to your shifting (multi-shift, reassign buttons, etc) -

    Now my caveat to below is - unless there is a real safety claim by Shimano (vs possible ride quality or performance issues)...

    1. DO NOT allow the software to convince you to upgrade to the most recent 2.6 etube software. If you do, all you will be able to do is test the connection, the software will tell you its detected an 11 spd and 10 spd, that's not compatible, and won't let you do anything else. Prior versions allow you to customize settings after that alert. I think all you need is v2.3 if you're riding road di2s. that is the first version that supports 6870. I tested each version of etube software from 2.2.3 to 2.6.0.

    2. DO NOT upgrade the battery holder SM-BMR1 firmware to the latest firmware as of July 14, 2014. Unless Shimano removes the firmware code that to me is tantamount to a virtual "OFF" switch - you will experience what I experienced. No shifter commands will be sent or read by the derailleurs. It appears they are controlling that through the battery holder. I was able to confirm this after swapping out my battery holder out for one that had not been flashed to the most recent 3.0.5 firmware. If you upgrade to the most recent, you will be hosed and will either need a new battery holder (just don't upgrade the firmware) or get the 6870 FD unless Shimano releases a subsequent firmware removing this "OFF" switch. It appears all other firmware updates in 2013 for the 6870 and 6770 are completely fine (others who did a firmware update prior to July 14, 2014 can probably chime in and reconfirm) this, but my results I believe are pretty conclusive since my system worked immediately when I swapped the battery holder out.

    EDIT - ADDED PIC FOR CLARITY - I think some people are confused with the version of eTube Software and Firmware versions. eTube software is, at a basic level, the means (delivery mechanism) to flash the firmware (program) into a piece of hardware. The firmware contains the logic needed for the hardware to know what it needs to do when it receives an input. i.e) what should the derailleur do when there's an input (click) from x shifter (button) - go up or down? and how fast should it respond... or should I do anything at all, or if the button is held down for x seconds, should I shift up or down 3 times and how fast?...



    RE:
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    If Shimano has changed the OS to stop you mixing components then that is poor.
    IT IS POOR IMHO. Below is my case to support this.

    I have basic microcontroller experience and web & app programming which is why this bugs me so much. Based on what I am able to replicate in the etube software and what I'm calling an "OFF" switch in the firmware my opinion is there is a strong case that there may be deliberate attempt to convince LBSs and DIYers that they had to get the FD.

    1. They don't give you or the LBS a way to revert firmwares (modern WiFi access points for example - consumers can download firmware versions new and old and upload to their device). I get some desire to protect users from themselves, but even the LBS cannot do this. Basically a firmware is the programming instructions saved directly in the microcontroller - essentially when it receives input -> do this (output). My take based on what I just experienced is the battery holder may have code put in the recent firmware that told the system (here's the logic flow) - IF mixed components (6870 and 6770) are detected in the chain, then don't do anything when the user presses any of the shift buttons. That's it. in the eTube software, it's the same - deactivate the customization button if there's mixed components (even though if I plug each component in independently I can customize) That line of code is not that hard to put in, but doesn't make sense why that conditional statement would even exist. There's no safety issues but more of a marketed performance issue, but that should be up to the consumer with standard disclaimers. It is hard for me (at this point) to understand a scenario where they had to this. Not a bug fix. And if there were a bug, fix the bug - i.e) user clicks shifter and old front derailleur adjusts too far - don't turn it off, adjust the range that the front derailleur moves. The battery firmware updates seem to just add support for other devices or manage power. get that. If my shifters support old versions, and the exact same battery supports the old and new devices, it doesn't make sense that my system just doesn't work (no commands are interpreted)


    2. It is interesting that Shimano posts eTube Software links as of this writing to just 2.6.0 and 2.2.3. Why 2.2.3? Why not start at 2.3.0, the first version to support the 6870 series. If you read the list of changes in the software 2.2.3 is pre-6870 support. If you tried to run the mixed setup and ran the 2.2.3 software, it prompts you to upgrade to the most recent version which skips all other versions that allow you to customize the RD and FD despite the mixed components, and upgrades you to a version that just stops you completely.

    Nuff said... I hope Shimano does the right thing and recodes their eTube and firmware to allow people to mix and match their components. I don't see a reason for the hassle programmatically speaking. If they claim that x will happen because of the mix, then it's at least up to the consumer to see if it's true, and make their decision from there.
  • murf1480
    murf1480 Posts: 117
    I have mine set as Fast changes, press and hold is 3 cogs across and I have my switches set as 'paddle shift' mode. The two front buttons control the FD and the two rear paddle type buttons control the RD. This is really nice to ride with. Left hand makes it easier, right hand makes it faster.[/quote]

    I've never changed mine around like that was it hard to get used to.
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    murf1480 wrote:
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    I have mine set as Fast changes, press and hold is 3 cogs across and I have my switches set as 'paddle shift' mode. The two front buttons control the FD and the two rear paddle type buttons control the RD. This is really nice to ride with. Left hand makes it easier, right hand makes it faster.

    I've never changed mine around like that was it hard to get used to.

    It took me about half an hour. Now I love it.


    Scrimpchip - great post. My laptop isn't normally connected to the internet so eTube won't know there is an upgrade from my v2.2. I'll stick with it until someone reports that Shimano have turned off the blocking code.
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    Carlton Bale has posted a link to the last OS that will allow component mixing.

    http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-ever ... d-to-know/
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • Pryally
    Pryally Posts: 132
    thanks for the info everybody - just about to do this...
  • shrimpchip
    shrimpchip Posts: 7
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    Scrimpchip - great post. My laptop isn't normally connected to the internet so eTube won't know there is an upgrade from my v2.2. I'll stick with it until someone reports that Shimano have turned off the blocking code.

    Glad if it helps others. If someone needs 6870 support, they will need etube v2.3.0 minimum though. It's the first version supporting 6870 components (you can see that in the version descriptions: http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/ - I went through version v2.2.3 through v2.6 when trouble shooting this issues). Good reminder to just disconnect from the internet as well.

    RE: Carltonbale link. My post name on that page is Steven N. Posted the links to versions 2.3 to 2.5.2 there.

    v 2.3.0
    http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/downlo ... _2_3_0.zip

    Pretty simple to follow their naming convention to download other versions 0 just replace the numbers after V in the link- i.e) v.2.3.0 --> V_2_3_0, v2.4.0 --> V_2_4_0

    Anyhow - happy upgrading =p
  • lostzx81
    lostzx81 Posts: 1
    Upgraded all components in my setup using the latest e-tube project (2.7.0): RD-6870, FD-6770, ST-6770 (internal battery, SM-EW90). Not only will the e-tube software report an incompatibility but the FD won't work when connected to the system; and nor will the RD (when the FD is disconnected it fires back up). I've used both PC connection methods and rolled back to early versions of the PC software. I've also tried using another FD-6770 that is running a version 1.X firmware (not the latest 2.2). No good. Shimano are blocking the use of the 10-speed FD (it would be interesting to know how, but since you can't roll back firmware it wouldn't offer more than academic interest). I know that the trim is slightly different between the 10s and 11s FDs but I am really disappointed that Shimano did this. The Di2 setup and configuration tool is fun and I've spent a shed load of money on more than one bike. $25 for a cable? I paid it. $125 for a battery? Yes, I've bought those... Have resorted to ordering an FD-6870 -- otherwise my bike is an expensive ornament. (Really happy about having to split my Dura Ace chain...)
    Hope this helps.
  • fatdaz
    fatdaz Posts: 348
    smidsy wrote:
    mitchgixer6 wrote:
    The new Ultegra deraillieur looks way better than the old one.

    That sums it up really - a complete waste of time and money.

    Who are you to decide what is a good use of somebody else's time and money
  • shrimpchip
    shrimpchip Posts: 7
    lostzx81 wrote:
    Upgraded all components in my setup using the latest e-tube project (2.7.0): RD-6870, FD-6770, ST-6770 (internal battery, SM-EW90). Not only will the e-tube software report an incompatibility but the FD won't work when connected to the system; and nor will the RD (when the FD is disconnected it fires back up). I've used both PC connection methods and rolled back to early versions of the PC software. I've also tried using another FD-6770 that is running a version 1.X firmware (not the latest 2.2). No good. Shimano are blocking the use of the 10-speed FD (it would be interesting to know how, but since you can't roll back firmware it wouldn't offer more than academic interest). I know that the trim is slightly different between the 10s and 11s FDs but I am really disappointed that Shimano did this. The Di2 setup and configuration tool is fun and I've spent a shed load of money on more than one bike. $25 for a cable? I paid it. $125 for a battery? Yes, I've bought those... Have resorted to ordering an FD-6870 -- otherwise my bike is an expensive ornament. (Really happy about having to split my Dura Ace chain...)
    Hope this helps.

    Not sure if you read my post on upgrading, but did you end up upgrading the firm ware on the battery holder SM-BMR-1? What you experienced is what I experienced. The firmware releases pre Jul 14, 2014 for the FD and RD have nothing to do with the incompatibility you experience. It's the firmware release on Jul 14, 2014 for the SM-BMR-1. Sorry if my long winded results might have been confusing. That's the culprit.

    See attached picture... Maybe more clear....


    Shimano IMHO are trying to tell us we need to upgrade the firmware on that to 3.0 when you don't need to for the 6770 and 6880s. Or get us to without us knowing what will happen. They are quite vague on what the firmware will. Cuz they only tell you what new functionality they provide, not what they take away. I kinda explained how. But again IMHO, I think - they inserted into the battery holder some conditional logic that tells it to let voltage through when the shifters are pressed (buttons like your remote control or mouse) if both RD and FD are the same. If not, don't. Relatively simple conditional statements. And my rant again, pretty deliberate.

    Grab another SM-BMR-1 to test. See if your LBS will lend you one, or just go down with your bike swap out the battery holder, and watch your system work with the 6770 FD and 6870 RD. The battery holder is cheaper, but... up to you. I was able to swap out mine when I got hosed. Got lucky I suppose. BUT, even though Shimano could let you revert to an old firmware, they don't give any ability in their software.
  • boblo
    boblo Posts: 360
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    shrimpchip wrote:
    Called Shimano and they essentially said I have to buy the 6870 FD and that the forums are not correct - cannot mix the components.

    That's rubbish but you can't blame them for wanting to sell you the rest of the 6870 kit. I know as I have done this to my bike and my GF's, recently. Nothing works until you have v2.2 uploaded, though.

    Here's what to do...

    Download v2.2 this from the eTube website. It's a big file and takes quite a while to download.

    Pull the lead off the battery holder and remove the battery. The ECU is in this and this needs v2.2 first. Follow the instructions on screen to upload the latest OS.

    Once you have updated the battery holder, disconnect PCE, re-connect the bike's cable and re-fit the battery.

    Plug the PCE into a spare port in one of the shifters. You can access these by pulling up the rubber hood and removing the little plastic bung in the spare port. These ports are for climbing shifters or aero bar switches. Once connected, you will get a list of all components that are connected and they will show as yellow on the screen. Work your way through the list, updating each component one by one. Once done, they all show as green.

    You will get a message saying that some functions of your 6870 rear deraileur may not work. Ignore this, they do.

    With v2.2 uploaded you can also change shift speeds, add 'press and hold' functions and re-assign switch functions.

    I have mine set as Fast changes, press and hold is 3 cogs across and I have my switches set as 'paddle shift' mode. The two front buttons control the FD and the two rear paddle type buttons control the RD. This is really nice to ride with. Left hand makes it easier, right hand makes it faster.

    And that sums up why I won't be going Di2 unless there's no other choice. Getting disparate electro mechanical stuff to work together reliably long term is royal PIA and not something I want to do for hobby as I already do it for a living.

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