Achieving max heart rate

DrasticBill

Hi I am a 50+ male that has started road riding and time triallling in the last few years. over last season I founf that for 25 mile time trials I could an avaerage pulse of ~158. So I have assumed that this represnts 85% of my max, but training this winter I am struggling to get my pulse above 162.... do hearts get sluggish and max heart rate is really a notional concept?

Ideas/ comments most welcome,

cheers Bill

imposter2.0

Do you know what your MHR is? How have you tested it?

xavierdisley

A cold environment will also often result in lowered heart rates (as does endurance training!). Don't use 220-age, it's a made up number - better to test it as mentioned above

Xav

fixie71

Would suggest a test in controlled environment, turbo trainer, sometimes I have seen a blip after an outdoor ride due to power lines or a high tech car going past. The test is hard and may need more than one attempt.

bahzob

Max heart rate really isn't a very useful measure. It can be hard to assess, differs widely between individuals and does not really tell you much about your fitness (as you get fitter MHR may actually go down).

That said, if you want to check your HR I find the best way to raise it in a controlled manner is a ramp test. Just pedal easily for a few minutes then increase effort every minute. HR should increase as well and other indicators will be noticeable too, the most useful of which is effect on breathing. Ideal is do around 10 steps so that by around 10 minutes you are unable to complete a full minute and are sucking in every breath. HR then or shortly after should be a reasonable guess of max.

JayKosta

It is typical for the max HR to actually decrease with more training.
Training increases the 'stroke volume' of each beat - you can read about this in a college level text book about exercise physiology and training.

Also, max HR depends on the specific individual - the 220-age is a 'guideline' that works for many people, but is probably not exact.
Another consideration is your level of rest and recovery when doing the HR tests and measurements.

My feeling is that training by HR is not necessary IF you can keep your training effort at the desired level by how you feel. Using HR can work to prevent unintended reduction (or increase) of training level because it shows a specific number for you to maintain.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

DrasticBill

Thanks for the responses.

No I have not done an MHR test, I had assumed the age formula seemed a good fit for me. However that would put my max at 172 ish. As last year in time trials I was able to average just under 160 for an hour I have to assume that my max is much higher.

However I have found this winter in turbo sessions i struggle to get my HR upto about 163. Do I need to train my heart or mind to allow me to push higher - or could I really be racing at 95% of my MHR?

imposter2.0

Age formulas are practically useless. If you haven't done an MHR or LTHR test, then anything else is just speculation.

caadybrompton

Imposter wrote:

Age formulas are practically useless. If you haven't done an MHR or LTHR test, then anything else is just speculation.

This ^^^
I'd be very surprised if you could maintain 95%MHR for an hour.

95%MHR is anaerobic , so only capable for a short time ie. sprinting/intervals. Your breathing would be very heavy/gasping for breath etc.

It sounds like your fitness has changed from last season to now. Also MHR declines with age.
I would suggest doing a test if you really want to know. It's the only way and even then it's not 100% ,but will get you close enough.

For example , I had a VO2 max test at Loughbrough this year they said my max was 193bpm. Since then I've had it up at 195bpm. So close , but not exact.
I don't think any of us will really know our absolute max or hit it.

More important is your resting HR. This should come down as training progresses and you become fitter.
Hence TT's will see you have a lower HR for the same pace/power output/time.

JayKosta

General training guideline -
Be certain to allow adequate time between hard training sessions for rest and recovery.

During hard training the body actually is slightly 'injured' by the stress, and shortterm fitness is reduced. During the rest and recovery after training is when the body rebuilds itself to a higher level of fitness by 'super compensating' for the stress of the previous training. The amount of time needed for rest and recovery typically increases with age due to lower hormone levels. It is counter-productive to train hard with inadequte recovery.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Team4Luke

DrasticBill wrote:

Hi I am a 50+ male that has started road riding and time triallling in the last few years. over last season I founf that for 25 mile time trials I could an avaerage pulse of ~158. So I have assumed that this represnts 85% of my max, but training this winter I am struggling to get my pulse above 162.... do hearts get sluggish and max heart rate is really a notional concept?

Ideas/ comments most welcome,

cheers Bill

well done first.
Really depends on whether or not you are giving it all in the race, you may think you are, but there is a difference between that and actually doing it. As you get fitter and stronger from training you will be able to suffer more and push your ave HR up, however equally as you get fitter and stronger your max and ave HR will come down but you will be at least riding as fast if not faster. Basically you want to ride faster but at the same approximate average HR, this means you are fitter.
Don't worry about winter, just try to train regulary, that is the key, don't be too concerned with HR in winter, ride and train in a controlled manner especially for TT training (on the flat as much as poss), constant efforts keeping HR steady not too much bouncing it up and down, unless you want to do RR.
Ramp test or a max effort up a short hill to find max HR this has to be to exhaustion, providing you are healthy of course. Rough guide only for TT and only once you have trained properly (not riding) but you would be looking to TT at around 15bpm below your max HR, 20bpm untrained state, top riders pros etc can ride much much closer to their max.

Team4Luke

xavierdisley wrote:

A cold environment will also often result in lowered heart rates.Xav

I don't beleive that is the case. The heart will go into defence mode accordingly and protect itself and together with numerous winter layers on this will not be an issue. Should a rider be badly under-dressed in cold conditions and riding at a none warming effort then yes indeed. Maintaining HR levels and power should be the same but perceptive feel wise forces the body to consider this is more difficult.
I do consider that riding in cold conditions generally has an effect on how high a quality session you can achieve, I suspect their is a quality limit and trying to train above that in winter is counterproductive long term, where that limit is I could not say. Factors such as wearing extra body layers, thick jackets, winter tights restricting leg/knee flexibility/power, extra weight of carrying such garments and extra drag. Others such as the body does not wish to maintain a full temperature, feet, hands, ears, all add up to making winter training generally less easy than equivalent summer training.

xavierdisley

It will be, either in a precooled situation or a cold environment, eg:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10358130
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10597847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23675353

Decreased heart rate in the cold is due to decreased blood flow to the skin and extremities, regardless of core temperature

Xav

Dave_P1

xavierdisley wrote:

It will be, either in a precooled situation or a cold environment, eg:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10358130
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10597847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23675353

Decreased heart rate in the cold is due to decreased blood flow to the skin and extremities, regardless of core temperature

Xav

Would this explain why I'm seeing higher power figures (when comparing to HR) when on the turbo to what I'm seeing on the road?

xavierdisley

In the current climate, maybe. But it's much more common for people to have a higher power output outside rather than on the turbo, due to inertial load and muscle firing patterns which are lower/different inside compared to out, as well as inadequate cooling strategies

Xav

Dave_P1

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I will monitor it again tomorrow to see what everything's reading, but it wouldn't surprise me if I'm an odd case

Team4Luke

xavierdisley wrote:

It will be, either in a precooled situation or a cold environment, eg:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10358130
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10597847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23675353

Decreased heart rate in the cold is due to decreased blood flow to the skin and extremities, regardless of core temperature

Xav

precool aside.
If you are properly insulated with decent clothing the reduced blood surface flow will be minimised, any small decrease in HR when riding outside and not in a controlled environment will not be noticeable to a large degree, if any and if training to HR very specificly or with power in the right hr zone then this would lead you to work a fraction harder to push that hr to where you ideally want it thus a better quality session but still limited as I said above, so lower zone work not an issue, maybe upto sub threshold or sub ftp. Above that due to the factors I offered it becomes much more a severe training session than the equivalent one in summer. Should not be a problem achieving any HR zone in the cold, buy perhaps its maintaing that for long periods more a problem with the other factors.

xavierdisley

For any given intensity in a cold environment (especially where convective cooling is concerned, ie. riding outside) then your heart rate is likely to be lower. Heart rate is not a measure of intensity. In the same vein your heart rate will increase in a warm environment for the same intensity.

You are less likely to be able to reach the kinds of maximum heart rates in the cold, as you might do in other environments. Max heart rate is a bit of a difficult one really, as it will vary from day to day due to all sorts of factors, so should be looked at as a guide, given +/- 3bpm, but is obviously useful as intensity response for training.

Xav

dw300

xavierdisley wrote:

For any given intensity in a cold environment (especially where convective cooling is concerned, ie. riding outside) then your heart rate is likely to be lower. Heart rate is not a measure of intensity. In the same vein your heart rate will increase in a warm environment for the same intensity.

You are less likely to be able to reach the kinds of maximum heart rates in the cold, as you might do in other environments. Max heart rate is a bit of a difficult one really, as it will vary from day to day due to all sorts of factors, so should be looked at as a guide, given +/- 3bpm, but is obviously useful as intensity response for training.

Xav

How much are we talking in terms of variance? And how cold does it need to be?

I was fairly surprised to see very high HR numbers at the weekend for what didn't seem that high an RPE at 3-4ºC.

http://app.strava.com/activities/107511215

Popped into the 190s on 2 occassions, half an hour in and then 2 hours later (albeit after a coffee).

Now the max Ive ever seen on my computer is 194, so should I expect high HRs to be more attainable this summer?

I've been doing almost exclusively short interval work recently, which might have pushed my LT up and explain the RPE difference I suppose.

xavierdisley

HR is in itself very variable, so from a training perspective is only good for trends and gross analysis. As for individual variance then that won't be the same from person to person either. I wouldn't worry too much if you see higher heart rates (or lower heart rates) than you're used to from time to time, as long as you understand that there are reasons behind it (sleep, caffeine ingestion, thermal stress, dehydration, carbohydrate processing, life stress, fatigue, physical trauma, illness etc.)

Xav

bigflangesmallsprocket

These rides where your HR is lower, are you working to a set average speed, or working to a specific effort? If you're doing the same route working to a set avg speed, but your HR is lower, then it may be because you're fitter and it's simply taking less effort to maintain that pace. If you're working to a set effort but your HR is not what it usually is for that perceived effort, it could be that you're actually overtraining, or maybe there's other stuff going on that just means you've not got as much energy to spare, such as your family or work-life taking up more energy, or you're not getting enough sleep, maybe not eating properly.

Also, I think as mentioned, atmosphere can also have an effect, cold and damp can lower the bodies ability to function at optimal levels, and apparently to intake oxygen so you're just getting less instant fuel to power your ride, That's normal at this time of year, and at the same level of fitness you'd be a just a smidge faster and probably your HR higher if the weather was nice n warm. Winter being a time for many serious cyclists to just eat some steady miles and concentrate on other aspects of fitness, top performance isn't usually considered crucial. I'm more of an on-off cyclist, but being 51 myself I've found that taking it a bit easier every few weeks helps me. If you did do a max HR test, then it has been recommended to retest every now and then; testing in mid-winter will probably give a slower max than in summer, so that'd mean re-assessing as the weather warms up.

if you're regularly training and competing then you're much more accomplished than I am, but the things I've mentioned do tend to crop up in training articles, so I thought worth mentioning.

Team4Luke

xavierdisley wrote:

HR is in itself very variable, so from a training perspective is only good for trends and gross analysis. As for individual variance then that won't be the same from person to person either. I wouldn't worry too much if you see higher heart rates (or lower heart rates) than you're used to from time to time, as long as you understand that there are reasons behind it (sleep, caffeine ingestion, thermal stress, dehydration, carbohydrate processing, life stress, fatigue, physical trauma, illness etc.)

Xav

qualification here, dependant on how highly you are trained and what level of rider you are, if you are highly trained particulary around sub and at threshold then you should see little hr variation at any time regardless of weather or what you have ingested. People who see large variations tend to be less well trained, if like myself over the years have specialized with very specific HR training you will have a very stable output.

xavierdisley

Do you have evidence for that?

Xav

imposter2.0

Team4Luke wrote:

qualification here, dependant on how highly you are trained and what level of rider you are, if you are highly trained particulary around sub and at threshold then you should see little hr variation at any time regardless of weather or what you have ingested. People who see large variations tend to be less well trained, if like myself over the years have specialized with very specific HR training you will have a very stable output.

So medical science has been wrong all this time? It's a good job you posted....

Bill_aberdeen

Last week, at the end of a turbo session I did a blast and got my pulse up to 168 and realise that I never try to push beyond my 85% threshold, I am always pacing myself for the whole session/ride.
Maybe I need to introduce some intervals where I push into the hurt zone,, briefly. Any good suggestions ?

sloppyschleckonds

Bill_aberdeen wrote:

Last week, at the end of a turbo session I did a blast and got my pulse up to 168 and realise that I never try to push beyond my 85% threshold, I am always pacing myself for the whole session/ride.
Maybe I need to introduce some intervals where I push into the hurt zone,, briefly. Any good suggestions ?

What do you want to achieve?

Bill_aberdeen

Hi SS, what do I want to achieve? Well improvement in my time trialling, and Sportives. If working above my threshold is beneficial then I shall try to get up there more frequently

JayKosta

For improvement with TT and sportive when training, ride the middle 1/3 at an overly hard pace, AND leave enough energy for the final 1/3 to slow down and get home. If hills are a concern, then work on them too.
Also be sure to have enough time for rest and recovery between hard training sessions.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA