Carbon - not commuter friendly?

guinea

I had a bit fit last week on my good bike so decided to ride it for a few days to get used to it. I wouldn't normally use my best bike for the daily grind to work, but I gave it a go anyway. I cycle from Epping to Angel. I only moved there recently, so am still getting used to the pinch points and likely accident spots (Woodford seems full of them).

Anyway, on Monday morning I was negotiating Whipps Cross roundabout when a woman entered the roundabout and ploughed into me. The visibility was perfect, I still had my lights on including an Exposure 1100 lumen flasher on the front, was wearing reflective gear and even a helmet! There was only one other vehicle on the roundabout at the time so she had no excuse not to see me.

Here is the Garmin map -

Anyway, she hit me on the left hand side and I went down on the right. I was doing around 23kph according to the garmin and the accident wasn't too hard. I'm a little bruised and stiff, but I've had far, far worse in the past. The bike wasn't so lucky.

The bike is/was a Canyon SLX CF 9.0 LTD. Which is a full carbon/super record affair. Everything is broken.

The frame is cracked, wheels totalled, bars wrecked (spokes and rims), seat buggered and the derailleur and pedals look like they've been in a war, although they still work. The total price to repair is pretty much the same as the new bike, to about £15 difference.

So, I am now completely against riding on the commute with carbon bits. Although it had the potential to be worse, this was a pretty innocuous accident and a £4.6k bill seems crazy. The woman has accepted liability and is deciding whether to pay in cash or go with insurance. Given I have her insurance details, if she doesn't make her mind up soon, I'll make it for her.

I was building a new titanium commute bike anyway and was thinking of carbon niceties, but nope, this will be a full metal job. For such a minimal impact the cost is eye watering.

New bike will be titanium with discs, Chris King hubs, H+ Son rims, Deda aluminium finishing kit (except for carbon post) and chorus groupset. I was considering Enve carbon bars and rims but after this experience I just don't want the hassle. Rising 365 days a year mean little spills are inevitable, whether they are self inflicted or not, and the cost of them has to be kept low.

Here's some damage porn:

Frame:


Front wheel:
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk29 ... ff5e0.jpeg

Rear wheel:


Bars:


Seat:

katiebob

Eep! Glad you're OK!

samsbike

looks rough. Good thing you are ok and she has admitted liability

lockstock666

I wouldn't be hesitating going to the insurance company. How long does one need to decide if they are going to cough up £4.6k? Its either "No problem, I'll have it sent over right away" or "Sh*t a brick! How much?!".

She may be wondering if you trying it on with the bill size, I would just get the ball rolling and make sure you see a doctor regarding your injuries. Were the police called?

It seems callous to say that the prospect of another £4.5k bill for bike repair might improve her driving skills in the future, but its probably true.

markhewitt1978

No way should you even be thinking about letting her pay in cash - straight to the insurance company!

For £4.6k it's always going to be better for her to let the insurance deal too.

chris_bass

looking at the damage i['d say whatever the material you'd be looking at a new bike/parts. As it wasn't your fault although the price is high you will be able to claim it all back from her insurance so you wont be out of pocket.

If I were you ride the bike you like the most, life is too short to keep these things for the perfect conditions :-)

TommyEss

To be honest, if a bike gets hit hard/run over, it doesn't matter what it's made of, it'll be a write of. I've had the misfortune to see a custom titanium Lynskey in pieces. The rider wasn't much better.

slowbike

an accident is never a good thing - no matter what bike you're on.
Glad you're ok though.

Insurance or cash? Cash would be quicker if she's got it - but perhaps you won't get any compo for injuries. Don't forget to include a new helmet & any clothes that were damaged in the claim.

Carbon on a commute? No problem with it - my commute bike has carbon forks - although the rest of it isnt. The only reason I don't ride the best (carbon) bike on the commute all the time is that I like having a best bike for longer rides at the weekend and the commute bike is marginally cheaper to maintain.
Then there's the replacement cost - it's far cheaper to replace my commute bike parts if I damage them - an off could easily be my fault. Granted, I could equally crash the best bike whilst out on a ride, but the commute is in most weathers and limited choice of route - if there's a hazard I've just got to go round it.

That said - when it's dry and sunny I'll happily bring the best bike in - it's nice to ride and makes a change from the commute machine.
You're a long time dead so may as well enjoy your toys whilst you can.

jomoj

you pays yer money and takes yer choice as they say but if you have the cash and space to spare I would just spend a small portion of what a titanium frame would cost on a complete off-shelf steel or alu bike that you can ride in all weathers and not be too precious about or distressed about if - fingers crossed it won't - it gets damaged.

And yes - go through the insurers and don't let her dictate the terms of the settlement.

cookeeemonster

Just wanna say I've heard too many stories of people admitting liability only to turn round at a later date and change their mind...including my mate who had the cow try to claim off him for damage to her car - some people are utter scum.

If she doesn't pay up the next day or two then do everything by the book - doctors/police everything. In fact it may be best to do that now- there is a sticky I think that explains exactly what you need to do.

And glad you're not too hurt!

guinea

I have the lady's insurance details, she gave me them at the scene. I also phoned them and checked I could initiate a claim if I wasn't satisfied with the response. The lady doesn't know I have the GPS tracking of the incident that shows I was in the perfect position on the road and had the right of way. I also have two witnesses.

For sure, the insurance claim would net me a little more money, but there would be more hassle to me as well as a delay and a risk that she'd change her mind about what happened. My preference is for her to make the bike right quickly.

She has an independent quote for the repair from my LBS and I've given her the option of paying them or ordering me a new bike from Canyon. I'd keep the old one for parts (shifters, crank and stem are still perfect) in lieu of travel expenses, new helmet, bike fit etc.

If she hasn't let me know her preference by the end of the week, I'll make the decision for her and initiate a claim for the whole shebang including bike fit, clothes, helmet, travel, taxis and any potential injury.

guinea

And ten seconds after I write that reply she's called to say she's taking advice from her insurer.

Great stuff.

Juddlinski

GPS tracking of the incident? Ooh, nice one! Now that IS sexy :P

markhewitt1978

And also useless as GPS is nowhere near accurate enough to give you exact road positioning, if it does on the map it's an illusion as it'll be using 'snap to road' to make it look more accurate than it is.

Good to hear it's going through insurance tbh, it's the best for all concerned. Don't forget it's the insurers job to put you back where you were before, for that sort of price of bike they may start talking about sourcing you a replacement themselves. You don't have to accept their first offer!

guinea

While the GPS will not show me exact position, it shows clearly the direction I was traveling and the point of impact as well as the trail of the bike being taken to the side of the road.

It shows, in all probability, that I was in the right.

She said originally that I must have been in her blind spot. Clearly I wasn't.



The red line is the path the bike took. You can see it get pinged towards the middle of the roundabout before a witness took it off the road.

markhewitt1978

I concede, that's pretty good evidence!

goonz

Blimey how fast was she going to cause that much damage!?

guinea

Honestly, not very fast. After years of commuting in London I clock every car approaching my path and this caused me no concern.

She slowed down, but then accelerated into me. I knew about 2 seconds before impact that it was coming and there was nothing I could do but brace for impact. I don't actually know which bit of the bike/me she hit, but she had a little wing and front bumper damage.

My feeling is she saw a van that was ahead of me and in the inside lane and once it was passed she went. I was actually between her and the van, but she didn't see me for some reason.

markhewitt1978

Sounds similar to my accident, saw her coming fro the left, the last thing I remember is the sight of my front wheel going into her wing/door and next thing I remember I'm lying on the deck thinking "got to get off the road".

Similar to yourself I thought get a direct payment but she baulked at the comparatively small amount of £275 I was asking for.

I don't envy you going through insurance. Have you filed a police report? And have you contacted a doctor?

guinea

I spoke to a passing police officer who wasn't sure what to do so radio'd a colleague.

The answer was, since nobody was hurt and we exchanged details, they would not do anything. I called her insurance and they agreed.

I don't have time to see a doctor. I've only got minor bruising and stiffness, so am not concerned. If I hve issues next week then I may follow it up.

markhewitt1978

You don't have to see a doctor, merely call up for a telephone consultation. However I'd urge you do to just that - e.g. I spent approx 10 minutes on the phone to the nurse. Considering the compensation that resulted that was an hourly rate of £6,000 per hour, a bit more than I normally earn

jomoj

take photos of any injuries, bruising etc, no matter how minor. I certainly don't condone ambulance chasing compo claimers but you should not take any chances at all. I would even consider getting photos of the collision site if you can illustrate line of sight and road layout and write down the conversation you had with her afterwards word for word if you can.

As an example, about 15 years ago I was involved in a multiple car pile up on the M1. Traffic in the outside lane came to a very sudden stop and I managed to stop in time but the 7 cars behind me didn't (can still remember it in slow motion.... anyway) so several loud bangs later we were all standing by the central reservation and I had a ford mondeo embedded in the back of my old escort and was exchanging details with driver behind me, all very civil considering.

After going to hospital and then being discharged to find my way home by train with whiplash and bruised legs and arms - thanks Derby A&E department for that - a couple of weeks later I went to the scrapyard where my crumpled car was to retrieve a few things still in the boot and took some photos that I hadn't been able to get at the time - this being in the age before everyone carried a camera in their pocket - and found the mondeo's bumper was still wedged into the back of my car, complete with numberplate

Once the claim was in process I got a court summons from the gentleman behind me claiming that I had cause the accident by stopping suddenly in the middle of a motorway, obviously as you do, and claiming all kinds of damages.
Miraculously though, once his solicitors where in possession of copies of a few choice photographs of parts of his car firmly mated with mine, illustrating the speed he must have hit me, the court summons was quickly cancelled and his insurers settled for the full value of my car, possessions and compensation in 24 hours.

dont take any chances, seemingly decent people can be right b*stards

awavey

guinea wrote:

Honestly, not very fast. After years of commuting in London I clock every car approaching my path and this caused me no concern.

I think with carbon fibre, if you catch it just wrong in a particular direction, it can break alot more easily than youd expect. its generally super strong in one direction, and they try when they build up the layers to overlap the weave of the material so you get an more even distribution of directional rigidity, how far they go on that with bike builds I dont know, but certainly in motorsport and aeronautical use they can play around with that property enough so that it actually bends under pressure rather than cracks.

but its possible that you were just unfortunate and all the force of the impact caught in its weakest point hence the damage, and you could replay the same accident many times and never quite see the same damage replicated.

personally Id have said that carbon isnt commuter friendly just because its more attractive to thieves, but then we've had a spate of bike thefts at work lately, then damage necessarily.

guinea

Oh well, she's changed her story.

Apparently I was weaving. While I categorically wasn't weaving, I don't see how that can help her. Even if she saw me zig zagging all over the roundabout she still should have given way to me before entering.

I've sent the above picture off to the insurer with my version of events. I just hope they sort if quickly. I've also taken some pictures of my bruising.

markhewitt1978

Look at that car coming towards me weaving all over the road! I know I'll drive into it.

That in fact further undermines her defence, if she saw you weaving, then she she's admitting she saw you.

notnot

guinea wrote:

I spoke to a passing police officer who wasn't sure what to do so radio'd a colleague.

The answer was, since nobody was hurt and we exchanged details, they would not do anything. I called her insurance and they agreed.

I don't have time to see a doctor. I've only got minor bruising and stiffness, so am not concerned. If I hve issues next week then I may follow it up.

Another possibility is that the impact/fall was harder than you realise (another reason why you might consider seeing your doctor). When the adrenaline's pumping, it can be hard to assess how hard a bump was. Carbon normally takes a fair impact to break - you might just have been unlucky with the angle of collision, but writing off several bits of the bike that way would be pretty unlucky!

The Rookie

guinea wrote:

Apparently I was weaving. While I categorically wasn't weaving, I don't see how that can help her. Even if she saw me zig zagging all over the roundabout she still should have given way to me before entering.

Hmm, so she saw you and still drove into you, sounds like escalating careless driving into dangerous, an assault with a weapon or attempted murder!

guinea

I sent her insurers my side of the story last night and the screen shot.

They called me this morning to settle, which I am very happy about.

They've offered a cash amount for injury plus additional travel expenses which I have accepted and the "cheque's in the post".

They also will cover the bike + accessories/clothing. The guy asked if they could do it through their supplier Wheelies, so I am awaiting their call. I don't think they'll be able to compete with Canyon and provide a sub 6.8kg super record equipped bike with carbon wheels for £4.6k though, so likely the cash will instead be paid to my bike shop or me.

If the insurers continue to behave as they have then I have to say I'm impressed by their speed and fairness.

I am utterly disappointed with the driver though. Their lack of integrity sickens me.

notnot

Glad you've got a settlement you're happy with.

The insurer may be happy to pay for a bike with a bit more than £4.6k face value if it's going through their preferred supplier - they might get a discount from Wiggle (so for example a £5k bike might cost them £4k). See what they offer, and whether this appeals or you'd rather have cash to you/your bike shop. If this incident has put you off riding pricey carbon bikes, you might prefer cash to bike.

slowbike

guinea wrote:

I sent her insurers my side of the story last night and the screen shot.

They called me this morning to settle, which I am very happy about.

Excellent - your GPS track seemed straight forward enough - from that and your report she was clearly the give way vehicle - so nice to know the insurance co aren't quibbling. £k's may seem a lot of money, but car repairs can be at least that much so no reason to be shy about it. I'd get the cash from them - then you get to sort your bike out yourself.
I guess you've got a few spares as well now ...

guinea wrote:

I am utterly disappointed with the driver though. Their lack of integrity sickens me.

Sounds usual - perhaps it was a co car or she hadn't protected her no claims.

cookeeemonster

Didn't think I'd be proved right about the driver so soon

Glad you've got a settlement so quickly...though I'm guessing the fact you haven't claimed for any injuries (which might show up after a few days etc) has something to do with it. Settling before you see a doctor could save them a couple of grand in their eyes, but it's looks like you're ok so fair enough, I'd probably take the money too as otherwise you're looking at months and months of hassle.

Happy shopping!