Britain lagging behind

capt_slog

Could one of the reasons that China will be able to build a HS line so much more easily than the UK is that they don't give a flying f*ck about how they do it and who they upset?

I remember something about them forcibly evicting people from their houses to build stadiums for the olympic games when they were held there.

markhewitt1978

Capt Slog wrote:

Could one of the reasons that China will be able to build a HS line so much more easily than the UK is that they don't give a flying f*ck about how they do it and who they upset?

This. And the fact they don't have to go through a due process for planning and they can just allocate money to a project without anyone complaining.

capt_slog

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

Could one of the reasons that China will be able to build a HS line so much more easily than the UK is that they don't give a flying f*ck about how they do it and who they upset?

This. And the fact they don't have to go through a due process for planning and they can just allocate money to a project without anyone complaining.

Yup, 'way-to-go' China, an inspiration to us all.

arran77

Capt Slog wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

Could one of the reasons that China will be able to build a HS line so much more easily than the UK is that they don't give a flying f*ck about how they do it and who they upset?

This. And the fact they don't have to go through a due process for planning and they can just allocate money to a project without anyone complaining.

Yup, 'way-to-go' China, an inspiration to us all.

Hey don't knock the Chinks, they get things done

pliptrot

There comes a time when quality of life must be judged as a separate idea to that of monetary success. The comparisons between European ways and those of other, fast-developing nations (to be made today in a speech by George Osborne) suggests that the rest of the world has a lesson for us. Yes it does: don't let that happen here. If British people were to compete with the Chinese on pay alone, we could have a huge and "vibrant" manufacturing sector here, too. This would be winding the clock back 200 years or more and would see starvation and real, grinding poverty. This is what the rich and powerful want. We should have a race to the top, where we should start paying more for imported goods so that the labourers who make them are afforded a little dignity. Instead we are racing to the bottom. A vibrant middle class is the essential element in a successful economy. China is developing one, and much of their infrastructure development is to be lauded. But it is still a nation of sweat shops and exploitation, and probably always will be. All the glitz and fast trains are built on that unavoidable truth. We (The USA and The UK) have abandoned the idea of a middle class, who have been set out to be the fall guys for the rich (and set themselves out, it seems), and we are paying the price of economic stagnation. Not everyone gets to be Bob Diamond, but then again, I think everyone should be able to live a dignified life. Just how many of those countries "leaping ahead" of Britain can offer that?

pblakeney

Rolf F wrote:

No I haven't. It wasn't particularly relevant to my point. How many people have died because of the lack of flood defences in your area (where is it as a matter of interest?)?

No one has died, and I was not intending for that to be the point.

The point of this thread is that it takes an age to get things done in this Country, anything.
It is not about wealth, class or any other similar issues that seem to continually get dragged into almost any thread, it is about attitude.
Most shops, or public houses, or restaurants that you go into have the staff too busy in conversation, or on the phone to be distracted by customers.
Go past a construction site and you will see very little actual construction going on.
Look around your work place. How many people are working as opposed to those shirking off doing non-work related activities?

And a final prime example, how many people reading this post should actually be working?

One of the main problems with this Country is the lack of work ethic.

VTech

PBlakeney wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

No I haven't. It wasn't particularly relevant to my point. How many people have died because of the lack of flood defences in your area (where is it as a matter of interest?)?

No one has died, and I was not intending for that to be the point.

The point of this thread is that it takes an age to get things done in this Country, anything.
It is not about wealth, class or any other similar issues that seem to continually get dragged into almost any thread, it is about attitude.
Most shops, or public houses, or restaurants that you go into have the staff too busy in conversation, or on the phone to be distracted by customers.
Go past a construction site and you will see very little actual construction going on.
Look around your work place. How many people are working as opposed to those shirking off doing non-work related activities?

And a final prime example, how many people reading this post should actually be working?

One of the main problems with this Country is the lack of work ethic.

Nail on Head my friend.

pliptrot

PBlakeney wrote:

One of the main problems with this Country is the lack of work ethic.

I'd suggest we are not alone in that. Go to pretty much any other country, and -where the workforce are less enfranchised, less included, less well treated- you'll find the interest in doing as little as possible just as strong there as here. The way to get people to work well is treat them well, include them, empower them. Every bit of the capitalism which is now, evidently, accepeted as the only way forward is geared toward reducing employee engagement, involvement and autonomy. This has everything to do with class, social structure and and collective thinking: we reward bankers, board executives and similar obscenely well, yet anybody who actually does something is treated increasingly poorly and told that they must be competitive (read: get paid less, and have less job security). Of course, at the other end of the spectrum we must compete to attract the best talent (read: bankers) or they threaten to leave. Would it not have been better if Bob Diamond and Fred Goodwin had left?

pblakeney

pliptrot wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

One of the main problems with this Country is the lack of work ethic.

I'd suggest we are not alone in that. Go to pretty much any other country, and -where the workforce are less enfranchised, less included, less well treated- you'll find the interest in doing as little as possible just as strong there as here. The way to get people to work well is treat them well, include them, empower them. Every bit of the capitalism which is now, evidently, accepeted as the only way forward is geared toward reducing employee engagement, involvement and autonomy. This has everything to do with class, social structure and and collective thinking: we reward bankers, board executives and similar obscenely well, yet anybody who actually does something is treated increasingly poorly and told that they must be competitive (read: get paid less, and have less job security). Of course, at the other end of the spectrum we must compete to attract the best talent (read: bankers) or they threaten to leave. Would it not have been better if Bob Diamond and Fred Goodwin had left?

Speak for yourself young man as I have done rather well out of my work ethic and you would now consider me to be at least one "class" above where I started. Opportunities exist for those willing to make the effort.

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

No I haven't. It wasn't particularly relevant to my point. How many people have died because of the lack of flood defences in your area (where is it as a matter of interest?)?

No one has died, and I was not intending for that to be the point..

Yes, but that was the point I was making. Look at the 1953 floods - over three hundred people died here and rather a lot more in Holland. Compare that to the floods of last month - similar magnitude environmentally but what a different outcome. The danger was identified and solutions put in place to ensure that an event like 1953 could never have the same impact again. In contrast, America protected a major city with endlessly sinking earth banks which were known to be inadequate to protect the city even from an event that might have a return period of only five years or so. It's in someways not a fair comparison because most of America is hardly first world (and, of course, in this case it wasn't that America was necessarily slow to get it done - rather that the solution was woefully and obviously inadequate yet nothing was done about it) but it does illustrate that we can be good where it really matters.

Still would like to know where your flood defences are.

pblakeney

I really cannot comprehend why you keep trying to use Britain's flood defenses as an example of superb efficiency.
Just ask those flooded recently if their buildings and infrastructure will be restored in adequate time.
I could also suggest that you try asking those who died but that would be flippant.

VTech

I have a home in Bewdley Worcestershire and although the defences are there, it floods almost yearly.
The government are working on this subject but as with most things, there is either not enough money or it takes too long to get the projects started.
To add however, there have been huge thefts of these units by scrap metal thieves over the past few years as well.

rolf_f

VTech wrote:

I have a home in Bewdley Worcestershire and although the defences are there, it floods almost yearly.
The government are working on this subject but as with most things, there is either not enough money or it takes too long to get the projects started.
To add however, there have been huge thefts of these units by scrap metal thieves over the past few years as well.

You get a lot of water in the River Severn and the more you constrain the flow in one location the more you will have problems elsewhere so it's not just a case of bunging up random walls. There have been some pretty big cutbacks in funding and quite a few flood schemes get delayed into death by objections from residents. Personally, I live on the side of a hill! But if my property was flood prone, I guess I'd make it so that the impact of flooding was minimal. There's a pub in York that gets flooded several times a year - usually the floods don't even seem to much affect the opening times and it's usually back to normal as soon as the water is gone.

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

I really cannot comprehend why you keep trying to use Britain's flood defenses as an example of superb efficiency.
Just ask those flooded recently if their buildings and infrastructure will be restored in adequate time.
I could also suggest that you try asking those who died but that would be flippant.

Because it is a good example. You compare the relatively small number of properties (often built in inappropriate places in the first place) with what happened in New Orleans.

If you get flooded on a regular basis, maybe you should take some responsibility for it yourself? After all, we all pay for flood defences whether or not we have any personal need for them (and this is a good thing). Yes, it's all very horrible if it happens to you but even in the most ideal world, realistically somebody is going to get flooded. So are you going to say that we are crap because we haven't eliminated every single risk for every single severity of event?

Are you advocating (because this is what it sounds like) that no expense is spared in protected everyone from any possibility of flooding at all? Because if you are, then how are you planning on funding this and what funding are you going to cut to pay for it?

It's about compromise - and I am pretty sure that our ability to protect all but a very small number of properties from flooding, rarely involving injury to the occupants, is rather better than the farce of New Orleans. Here, most flood related deaths are due to people being foolish. Or do you think ruined plasterwork is as bad as being dead?

You seem to have very high demands before you'll classify the UK as efficient at anything and extremely low expectations of other countries to achieve the same.

pblakeney

Rolf F wrote:

If you get flooded on a regular basis, maybe you should take some responsibility for it yourself?

My house has never been flooded. I was not even complaining about floods.

My original point was using an example where a major road junction has been cut to one lane with three way traffic lights causing congestion for 1 1/2 years. With no end date in sight. And in the past 6 months, I have not seen one worker. That is the problem. Maybe the work should not have started in the first place. Planning, finances or worker ethic. Take you pick for each situation, but this Country is woeful and could easily be improved. I see so many examples on a daily basis of people procrastinating when they could simply get on with it.

PS:- Shouldn't you be working?

Alain Quay

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Capt Slog wrote:

Could one of the reasons that China will be able to build a HS line so much more easily than the UK is that they don't give a flying f*ck about how they do it and who they upset?

This. And the fact they don't have to go through a due process for planning and they can just allocate money to a project without anyone complaining.

We have less to learn from China

than from other European nations.

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

My original point was using an example where a major road junction has been cut to one lane with three way traffic lights causing congestion for 1 1/2 years. With no end date in sight. And in the past 6 months, I have not seen one worker. That is the problem. Maybe the work should not have started in the first place. Planning, finances or worker ethic. Take you pick for each situation, but this Country is woeful and could easily be improved. I see so many examples on a daily basis of people procrastinating when they could simply get on with it.

.

OK, so the basis of your disdain for the efficiency of the UKs flood defence implentation is a single local roadworks issue? Frustrating I appreciate but it doesn't exactly seem to be the basis for a convincing overview.........

I do agree with you about roadworks in general. It seems odd how even if I leave early, a long lasting roadworks can be entirely empty of people. Up here, it is Northern Gas Networks who seem to be particularly bad - eg diverting pedestrians uneccessarily inconveniently and having stupid traffic light intervals. But we can't blame the state for that - beyond that they were privatised in the first place.

PBlakeney wrote:

PS:- Shouldn't you be working?

Is this directed at me specifically or everyone posting here today, yourself included?

pliptrot

PBlakeney wrote:

I have done rather well out of my work ethic and you would now consider me to be at least one "class" above where I started. Opportunities exist for those willing to make the effort.

Whatever that means.....there are 22% of 18-24 year olds in the UK who would disagree with you. People need a choice, and if they don't have that -and they don't- something is wrong. However, I think your use of the term woeful to describe Britain is way off the mark. If you think anywhere else has a lesson for us in efficiency and motivation, go and live there and report back after a while. You will be surprised. Britain is a great nation, the British the greatest people on earth, but we are led - and always have been - by clowns and idiots. Oddly, every time somebody moves up a class (whatever that means) they leave common sense and decency where they came from - perhaps because they need the space for all that greed.

VTech

pliptrot wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I have done rather well out of my work ethic and you would now consider me to be at least one "class" above where I started. Opportunities exist for those willing to make the effort.

Whatever that means.....there are 22% of 18-24 year olds in the UK who would disagree with you. People need a choice, and if they don't have that -and they don't- something is wrong. However, I think your use of the term woeful to describe Britain is way off the mark. If you think anywhere else has a lesson for us in efficiency and motivation, go and live there and report back after a while. You will be surprised. Britain is a great nation, the British the greatest people on earth, but we are led - and always have been - by clowns and idiots. Oddly, every time somebody moves up a class (whatever that means) they leave common sense and decency where they came from - perhaps because they need the space for all that greed.

I don't buy that, I think British people make huge mistakes and at times are like lemmings.
I was bought up in Longbridge.

pliptrot

VTech wrote:

I was bought up in Longbridge.

Were you expensive?

VTech

pliptrot wrote:

VTech wrote:

I was bought up in Longbridge.

Were you expensive?

Cheap actually (bludy ifone arto corect) :oops:

pblakeney

Rolf F wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

My original point was using an example where a major road junction has been cut to one lane with three way traffic lights causing congestion for 1 1/2 years. With no end date in sight. And in the past 6 months, I have not seen one worker. That is the problem. Maybe the work should not have started in the first place. Planning, finances or worker ethic. Take you pick for each situation, but this Country is woeful and could easily be improved. I see so many examples on a daily basis of people procrastinating when they could simply get on with it.

.

OK, so the basis of your disdain for the efficiency of the UKs flood defence implentation is a single local roadworks issue? Frustrating I appreciate but it doesn't exactly seem to be the basis for a convincing overview.........

I do agree with you about roadworks in general. It seems odd how even if I leave early, a long lasting roadworks can be entirely empty of people. Up here, it is Northern Gas Networks who seem to be particularly bad - eg diverting pedestrians uneccessarily inconveniently and having stupid traffic light intervals. But we can't blame the state for that - beyond that they were privatised in the first place.

PBlakeney wrote:

PS:- Shouldn't you be working?

Is this directed at me specifically or everyone posting here today, yourself included?

I did not ascertain a disdain for the efficiency of the UK's flood defence. I simply used one example of a lack of efficiency. That the cause of the maintenance was flooding was neither here nor there. The point was the inefficiency of the maintenance.

The comment about you working was tongue in cheek but still valid, and does apply to everyone on a work's computer during work time. Does it apply to me? Well, as I am the owner of the company then I can decide.

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

The comment about you working was tongue in cheek but still valid, and does apply to everyone on a work's computer during work time. Does it apply to me? Well, as I am the owner of the company then I can decide.

Well, that's the problem with this country. Slack bosses!

Pross

VTech wrote:

Bozman wrote:

How will spending £60bn on HS2(which will shave ten minutes off a train journey) save the country?
You're not going to expand your business to the UK purely because your train journey is slightly quicker, you've still got all the shite at either end.

The trains have nothing to do with the point being made.
The issue being its the way we (as a country) operate.
Whilst others get the job done, we fek it up.

Another example.

Motorways, we go to a depth of 8" with a life of 6 years.
The germans go to a depth of 12" with a life of 20 years, costing only 18% more to complete.

I sort of agree with your original point. Basically, the reason it takes so long for things to get built (talking major infrastructure projects) is that we elect politicians but then don't want them to make a decision and insist on having a say in all stages of the planning process. The government is completely confused as on one hand they are saying they want to cut through this red tape and at the same time they introduce a localism bill to give more power to locals to veto planning.

However, on your point above you are completely incorrect. New motorways and trunk roads in the UK are built with a 40 year design life i.e. you have to calculate the predicted traffic flow in units of millions standard axles over a 40 year period and the overall depth of black stuff is than taken off a chart to provide for that level of traffic. You can use thinner depths of stronger materials or thicker construction with standard materials but the key is the overall life (40 years is the planned length at which the road needs replacing, minor maintenance is expected after 10 years). There is a false impression in the UK that our roads are inferior in design to other countries, in reality we are just as good as anywhere for original build standards. Where we fall down is on the lack of funding for maintaining lower category roads and it has got too far to rectify the situation.

VTech

Pross wrote:

VTech wrote:

Bozman wrote:

How will spending £60bn on HS2(which will shave ten minutes off a train journey) save the country?
You're not going to expand your business to the UK purely because your train journey is slightly quicker, you've still got all the shite at either end.

The trains have nothing to do with the point being made.
The issue being its the way we (as a country) operate.
Whilst others get the job done, we fek it up.

Another example.

Motorways, we go to a depth of 8" with a life of 6 years.
The germans go to a depth of 12" with a life of 20 years, costing only 18% more to complete.

I sort of agree with your original point. Basically, the reason it takes so long for things to get built (talking major infrastructure projects) is that we elect politicians but then don't want them to make a decision and insist on having a say in all stages of the planning process. The government is completely confused as on one hand they are saying they want to cut through this red tape and at the same time they introduce a localism bill to give more power to locals to veto planning.

However, on your point above you are completely incorrect. New motorways and trunk roads in the UK are built with a 40 year design life i.e. you have to calculate the predicted traffic flow in units of millions standard axles over a 40 year period and the overall depth of black stuff is than taken off a chart to provide for that level of traffic. You can use thinner depths of stronger materials or thicker construction with standard materials but the key is the overall life (40 years is the planned length at which the road needs replacing, minor maintenance is expected after 10 years). There is a false impression in the UK that our roads are inferior in design to other countries, in reality we are just as good as anywhere for original build standards. Where we fall down is on the lack of funding for maintaining lower category roads and it has got too far to rectify the situation.

I don't actually know anything about roads but one of my friends is a part owner in one of the biggest council contractors in the midlands for roads and from what I've heard in passing conversation they have to tender so cheaply that corners are cut and for a small percentage extra the work would last massively longer.
I didn't know about the 40 year cycle as you say but I can't see that being the car in reality ( not that it isn't meant to be) as I'm 40 and can't think of a road that hasn't been working on over the years.

diplodicus

I do find it slightly amusing when people go on about how the roads in France are so much better than ours. They seem to forget that a lot of them are toll roads. The local roads in area around where my in laws live are terrible, more suited to a mtb than a road bike.

Pross

There'll always be some minor maintenance going on (this can include taking off the top surface and replacing it) but much of the work will be 'improvements' such as widening or getting ready for hard shoulder running. Council roads will have their own regimes based on budgets but they'll use a similar process for building new roads. It may be that they use a 20 year life (as motorways did until a few years ago) rather than 40 but even a lightly trafficked housing estate road will probably be up around 200mm (8") thick. Very occasionally you might go down to 170mm on estate roads but that's because they have virtually no HGV traffic and the damage factor for cars and LGVs is negligible. I've just designed a road in Iraq through an oil field and they only wanted about 100mm despite having trucks double the size of ours, they did have more stone under the blacktop though. Workmanship is usually a bigger cause of failure than the design or materials.

florerider

Read the term time holidays thread wtf and there might be a clue about the attitudes that feed this decline

Mikey23

Yup, pretty depressing I thought!

Brassknocker

VTech wrote:

Bozman wrote:

How will spending £60bn on HS2(which will shave ten minutes off a train journey) save the country?
You're not going to expand your business to the UK purely because your train journey is slightly quicker, you've still got all the shite at either end.

The trains have nothing to do with the point being made.
The issue being its the way we (as a country) operate.
Whilst others get the job done, we fek it up.

Another example.

Motorways, we go to a depth of 8" with a life of 6 years.
The germans go to a depth of 12" with a life of 20 years, costing only 18% more to complete.

My other half is German, and we spend 6 months of the year now between 'here' and there.

I think it's easy to take shots at the UK ( I blame our media constantly taking the negative view) but think we have a lot to learn from the Germans (regarding health, Education and social provision), but I have to say German AutoBahns are terrible in comparison to UK motorways... Our roads (with the exception of Edinburgh's ploughed up tram works) are excellent. Cats eyes, good road markings are first class. Go to Germany and drive at night in the rain... there are no street lights, no cats eyes, very poor road markings, really bad drainage, terrible stationary traffic jams, ...but considering they tend to have 2 lanes rather than our three - they have good lane discipline!! Add to that, Mercs flying past at 150mph, it's madness!

The thing that impresses me there over the UK is that the focus is on the average person... it's a cliche, but it genuinely is about 'the people'. Take an area in Germany, every child in a catchment area goes to that local school, regardless of parental income, address, etc, draw a circle around a school with a compass, and all the kids within that go to the same school, there's little social segregation (it does exist though, but on a much smaller scale to here). You can't judge the back ground of those kids either. The UK is great, but the class system, the Etonion hereditary peers, career politicians in Westminster are ruining this country, holding it back.
In Germany compared to the UK, it seems that the 'average' person is valued. Look at what they produce, it's for the benefit of the average person. Ok, they do top end, but generally, the Golf, VW transporter, 3 series, A4.... over here we produce Bentley, Range Rover, the Vantage, there's an obvious target aim.

Regarding social engineering projects, the UK is still excellent. There's a local bridge in Germany that's been started and delayed and delayed due to local politics and disputes with private rail companies... it's not just the UK...

..rambling over.