Britain lagging behind

VTech

Many of you will have read the other thread about the yacht but is this the main reason we as a country and falling rapidly ?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/china-high-spe ... ml#Nbwh9F2

6 years we take just to discuss a venture whilst other countries invest the money, make it happen and in the end it costs fractions of what we spend.
We will have spend £60b by the time we ever get started on HS2 yet the Chinese, as do others, simply get it done spending the money where it matters, on getting the job done.

When we took the trains idea to the USA it flourished, we did the same with India and yet we can't seem to uphold what we started. We biatch and moan about how hard up we are as a country but we know no real hardship in the grand scheme of things but I am not so certain that will be the case for my grand children's era.

ugo.santalucia

China is now what Britain was in the 50-60s things were easy back then... fast forward 30 years and CHina will face the same issues.
The western world is pretty much bankrupt and yet there is so much wealth around that many live in fear of losing their slice... the property obsession virtually halts every future development (unless it adds value to the existing properties)... it spirals into nonsense, but that's the world we like to live in
You can always move to China...

finchy

I think that you're right in saying that other countries will invest the money whereas in Britain we just try to make do. Then again, I'm not sure that trains are the best example. If you look at countries like China, France, Germany, Japan, the major cities are spread out across the country, so a bullet train or, in the future a maglev really is quite essential to have a properly functioning system. In the UK, the vast majority of the population live within a few hours' train journey of most of the major cities, so the pros don't outweigh the cons in the view of much of the electorate.

My own view is that the HS2 would be well worth it from the point of view of getting people out of planes and onto trains, inspiring a new generation of people interested in the sciences and engineering and freeing up capacity on the WCML, but I can't understand why they are building a railway line to a station outside Birmingham - surely once you've changed trains and taken a connection service into the city, the high speed advantage will be nearly wiped out?

VTech

johnfinch wrote:

I think that you're right in saying that other countries will invest the money whereas in Britain we just try to make do. Then again, I'm not sure that trains are the best example. If you look at countries like China, France, Germany, Japan, the major cities are spread out across the country, so a bullet train or, in the future a maglev really is quite essential to have a properly functioning system. In the UK, the vast majority of the population live within a few hours' train journey of most of the major cities, so the pros don't outweigh the cons in the view of much of the electorate.

My own view is that the HS2 would be well worth it from the point of view of getting people out of planes and onto trains, inspiring a new generation of people interested in the sciences and engineering and freeing up capacity on the WCML, but I can't understand why they are building a railway line to a station outside Birmingham - surely once you've changed trains and taken a connection service into the city, the high speed advantage will be nearly wiped out?

Thats the whole point surely ?
This is why we lag behind, you took 30 seconds to type the solution to a problem we have already spent billions discussing and will spend billions more before it either happens or doesn't.

arran77

VTech wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

I think that you're right in saying that other countries will invest the money whereas in Britain we just try to make do. Then again, I'm not sure that trains are the best example. If you look at countries like China, France, Germany, Japan, the major cities are spread out across the country, so a bullet train or, in the future a maglev really is quite essential to have a properly functioning system. In the UK, the vast majority of the population live within a few hours' train journey of most of the major cities, so the pros don't outweigh the cons in the view of much of the electorate.

My own view is that the HS2 would be well worth it from the point of view of getting people out of planes and onto trains, inspiring a new generation of people interested in the sciences and engineering and freeing up capacity on the WCML, but I can't understand why they are building a railway line to a station outside Birmingham - surely once you've changed trains and taken a connection service into the city, the high speed advantage will be nearly wiped out?

That is the whole point isn't it, an inability for decisions to be made in this country.

That is the whole point.

You only have to look at the whole Heathrow expansion debate, it's been going on for decades and in my opinion will go on for decades to come and all the time this country lags further and further behind.

Colinthecop

ugo.santalucia wrote:

fast forward 30 years and CHina will face the same issues.

Unions and H&S reps....?

arran77

Colinthecop wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

fast forward 30 years and CHina will face the same issues.

Unions and H&S reps....?

That's a bit simplistic if you think that's the reason this country is fecked.

Colinthecop

Can we blame the benefits system too, and perhaps immigration...?

Does that help...?

markhewitt1978

China has achieved the rarest of things, a dictatorship which doesn't ruin the country attempting to keep itself in power.

Colinthecop

Colinthecop wrote:

Can we blame the benefits system too, and perhaps immigration...?

Does that help...?

Is it too late to add The Human Rights Act to that...?

So my reasons -

1. Unions
2. H&S Reps
3. Benefits as a lifestyle choice
4. Immigration
5. Human Rights Act

Pretty sure that's a definite answer to most of the countrys ills.

bompington

markhewitt1978 wrote:

China has achieved the rarest of things, a dictatorship which doesn't ruin the country attempting to keep itself in power.

And aren't those new autobahns wonderful, and isn't it great that the Italian trains are running on time?

markhewitt1978

Yeah I admit there might be a slight flaw in the plan

clickrumble

markhewitt1978 wrote:

China has achieved the rarest of things, a dictatorship which doesn't ruin the country attempting to keep itself in power.

The Chinese government has created some massive environmental problems. Personally I'd rather be living in a country considered to be "lagging behind" than have to experience some of these;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_China

Bozman

How will spending £60bn on HS2(which will shave ten minutes off a train journey) save the country?
You're not going to expand your business to the UK purely because your train journey is slightly quicker, you've still got all the shite at either end.

VTech

Bozman wrote:

How will spending £60bn on HS2(which will shave ten minutes off a train journey) save the country?
You're not going to expand your business to the UK purely because your train journey is slightly quicker, you've still got all the shite at either end.

The trains have nothing to do with the point being made.
The issue being its the way we (as a country) operate.
Whilst others get the job done, we fek it up.

Another example.

Motorways, we go to a depth of 8" with a life of 6 years.
The germans go to a depth of 12" with a life of 20 years, costing only 18% more to complete.

pblakeney

I wholeheartedly agree with the original point.

We used to over engineer, now we engineer to a price. Which is usually blown before construction begins.

As examples:-
Japan was up and running within months of the Tsunami. Days in some areas.
San Francisco was back to normal in 6 months after the earthquake.
Christchurch is back to normal a year after their earthquake.

I drive past a flood defences construction site around a very small river that have been on going for 1 1/2 years and they still do not have an anticipated completion date as it is too far off in the future.

Even more disconcerting - Top Gear proved that they could resurface a road in 24 hours that was scheduled to take 7 days. And that is with Jeremy Clarkson organising things!

This Country is woefully mismanaged.

markhewitt1978

VTech wrote:

Motorways, we go to a depth of 8" with a life of 6 years.
The germans go to a depth of 12" with a life of 20 years, costing only 18% more to complete.

That's how much road construction happens now. Get the original project in as cheaply as possible in order to get it approved, no future proofing. Maintenance down the line is someone elses problem.

de rien

How to get on with it .....http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013 ... er/100469/

Did someone mention our potholes

arran77

markhewitt1978 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Motorways, we go to a depth of 8" with a life of 6 years.
The germans go to a depth of 12" with a life of 20 years, costing only 18% more to complete.

That's how much road construction happens now. Get the original project in as cheaply as possible in order to get it approved, no future proofing. Maintenance down the line is someone elses problem.

I'd say this is also true of many other sectors of our economy too, I work in construction and it's certainly the case here

arran77

de rien wrote:

How to get on with it .....http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013 ... er/100469/

Did someone mention our potholes

This country would be utterly f*cked if we suffered natural disasters on that scale :shock:

southdownswolf

arran77 wrote:

de rien wrote:

How to get on with it .....http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013 ... er/100469/

Did someone mention our potholes

This country would be utterly f*cked if we suffered natural disasters on that scale :shock:

There are some areas of this country that would be better off if a "natural disaster" happened...

arran77

southdownswolf wrote:

arran77 wrote:

de rien wrote:

How to get on with it .....http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013 ... er/100469/

Did someone mention our potholes

This country would be utterly f*cked if we suffered natural disasters on that scale :shock:

There are some areas of this country that would be better off if a "natural disaster" happened...

Like anything north of Hadrians Wall.

sloppyschleckonds

southdownswolf wrote:

arran77 wrote:

de rien wrote:

How to get on with it .....http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013 ... er/100469/

Did someone mention our potholes

This country would be utterly f*cked if we suffered natural disasters on that scale :shock:

There are some areas of this country that would be better off if a "natural disaster" happened...

Wolverhampton?

steerpike

Colinthecop wrote:

Colinthecop wrote:

Can we blame the benefits system too, and perhaps immigration...?

Does that help...?

Is it too late to add The Human Rights Act to that...?

So my reasons -

1. Unions
2. H&S Reps
3. Benefits as a lifestyle choice
4. Immigration
5. Human Rights Act

Pretty sure that's a definite answer to most of the countrys ills.

More likely it's a result of having arseholes like you living here.

Mikey23

Ouch

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

As examples:-
Japan was up and running within months of the Tsunami. Days in some areas.
San Francisco was back to normal in 6 months after the earthquake.
Christchurch is back to normal a year after their earthquake.

We wouldn't have built a nuclear power station in a tsunami risk area (moot point I know but the point is we wouldn't have) and we would have had adequate flood defences for New Orleans (though that admittedly is in a second world country for the most part) which was hopelessly inadequately protected for an event that could be predicted to occur more frequently than once every 10 years. And we are sufficiently slow off the mark not to do as the Dutch did and build a high speed rail link that saves a grand total of 8 minutes between Amsterdam and Rotterdam and which hardly any trains run on and hardly anyone uses.

Yes, we are a bit crap in some respects but lets keep a perspective.

DesB3rd

Note: UK highways generic spec. is 50mm HRA, 60mm HDM, 240mm HDM (larger aggregate in the base course) - just shy of 14". If the compressed limestone is included them we're looking at ~2.5'

pblakeney

Rolf F wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

As examples:-
Japan was up and running within months of the Tsunami. Days in some areas.
San Francisco was back to normal in 6 months after the earthquake.
Christchurch is back to normal a year after their earthquake.

.....and we would have had adequate flood defences for New Orleans ...

I notice that you have conveniently cut the part in my post about the lack of flood defences in my area.

Colinthecop

steerpike wrote:

More likely it's a result of having arseholes like you living here.

Living where...?

Oh hang on, is that you dad...? What have I told you about unsupervised internet access. :roll:

sloppyschleckonds

Colinthecop wrote:

steerpike wrote:

More likely it's a result of having arseholes like you living here.

Living where...?

Oh hang on, is that you dad...? What have I told you about unsupervised internet access. :roll:

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

As examples:-
Japan was up and running within months of the Tsunami. Days in some areas.
San Francisco was back to normal in 6 months after the earthquake.
Christchurch is back to normal a year after their earthquake.

.....and we would have had adequate flood defences for New Orleans ...

I notice that you have conveniently cut the part in my post about the lack of flood defences in my area.

No I haven't. It wasn't particularly relevant to my point. How many people have died because of the lack of flood defences in your area (where is it as a matter of interest?)?