Mark Duggan inquest

rick_chasey

mamba80 wrote:

when I worked in London, some great engineers would be repeatedly stopped for one reason...they were black -.

This is unfortunately my experience too.

Colinthecop

One night (early hours of the morning) I drove from Central London down to Morden where I lived.

I was stopped 3 times by the Police that night.

I hadn't done anything wrong and each interaction only took a couple of minutes.

Being a white hetrosexual male I took it that the Police were out there doing their jobs and being proactive. I wish I could have blamed some sort of discrimination....

florerider

NapoleonD wrote:

Some very emotive posting here.
People should bear in mind the media agenda though when reading their 'stories'.
Thousands and thousands of good jobs get done for every one 'fcuk up'. Unfortunately they don't make for good copy. In fact, the bare truth about these 'fcuk ups' often doesn't make for good copy.

Emotive and not very thoughtful.

Just as we do not want to be judged by the antics of some anti-social "so called cyclists" let us not judge the whole force by a few bad apples. There are a lot of good dedicated guys and girls out there dealing with people we would never want to meet.

rick_chasey

C'mon. Stop and search doesn't take two minutes in my experience waiting for my mate.

Usually takes just a bit longer than it takes for the last bus to turn up and leave.

Used to upset him so much we'd wait for him as a show of solidarity, even when asked to leave by the police. Usually meant a 2hr walk home unless we could scab a lift.

It's pretty humiliating. They'd insist on going through his stuff 4 or 5 times, however long it took to miss the bus.

We lodged a few complaints and nothing seemed to happen. Just that they were "doing a difficult job".

I imagine it's this kind of stuff which is makes those in Tottenham so angry.

Fwiw he stopped going out into town after a while. We'd get asked by the same police where our mate was hiding. They never stopped any of us.

GiantMike

florerider wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

Some very emotive posting here.
People should bear in mind the media agenda though when reading their 'stories'.
Thousands and thousands of good jobs get done for every one 'fcuk up'. Unfortunately they don't make for good copy. In fact, the bare truth about these 'fcuk ups' often doesn't make for good copy.

Emotive and not very thoughtful.

Just as we do not want to be judged by the antics of some anti-social "so called cyclists" let us not judge the whole force by a few bad apples. There are a lot of good dedicated guys and girls out there dealing with people we would never want to meet.

Like Andrew Mitchell. Sounds like a right scumbag criminal.

As I said before, a few bad apples have spoiled the reputation of the police in the eyes of some people. I have nothing against the police and I think that, on the whole, they do a great job. However, I'm not surprised that some people don't trust them based on the actions of a few that shouldn't be coppers.

Colinthecop

Rick Chasey wrote:

I imagine it's this kind of stuff which is makes those in Tottenham so angry.

Imagine...? You can do better than that.

Why don't you go there, have a walk around the farm, and and see how quickly you need those that you seem to despise so much.

rick_chasey

Colinthecop wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I imagine it's this kind of stuff which is makes those in Tottenham so angry.

Imagine...? You can do better than that.

Why don't you go there, have a walk around the farm, and and see how quickly you need those that you seem to despise so much.

See. You're not even ashamed to be associated with the people who did that to my mate. You just close ranks.

That's the problem. Let's hear you say that some police behave badly.

Police were fine with me when I got assaulted. Good even. For sure. But I'm white and middle class. I was eloquent and try to be a good citizen.

But then I go out clubbing with a black mate and he gets harassed by the police for no legitimate reason. Every weekend until he stopped going clubbing.


What was the stat? When go pros were added to Police in Rialto, use of force by Police dropped by 2/3 instantly. The sooner they come here the better. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=44427

Colinthecop

Rick Chasey wrote:

See. You're not even ashamed to be associated with the people who did that to my mate. You just close ranks.

Why should I be ashamed about an incident and I know nothing about and in all honesty, nor do you...?

napoleond

We've had 'bodycams' in manchester for a while. Not been any difference up here, really, in that respect.

However, they are fantastic! We've had some good prosecutions from domestics where the victim has been too scared to give evidence from footage at the scene.

Colinthecop

Rick Chasey wrote:

What was the stat? When go pros were added to Police in Rialto, use of force by Police dropped by 2/3 instantly. The sooner they come here the better. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=44427

I don't know what the stats are for an American state, but if you can evidence it with a link from the internet, then any argument I have is obviously invalid.

Especially when that link says this sort of thing -

Fact is, most cops have everything and more to hide.

Their job is to enforce criminally idiotic and anti-human laws written by criminal politicians, from the drug laws to thousands of idiotic regulations on the books, their job is no longer to arrest violent criminals and thieves but to aggress against non-violent, non-criminals -- which turns them into criminals themselves. -


Good find Rick, good find. :roll:

rick_chasey

I just googled rialto police study.

Try this, the original report: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/busin ... html?_r=1&

or this

http://www.policefoundation.org/content ... -use-force

or this http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/n ... nts-rialto

napoleond

Pretty much as you'd predict.
Less malicious complaints.
Some criminals respond by not being such violent pr!cks
Some bad officers have their behaviour modified
And, from my experience mentioned above, better evidence and prosecutions.

rick_chasey

NapoleonD wrote:

Pretty much as you'd predict.
Less malicious complaints.
Some criminals respond by not being such violent pr!cks
Some bad officers have their behaviour modified
And, from my experience mentioned above, better evidence and prosecutions.

Yeah.

I guess the concern is when they get turned on and off - and what the police / authorities are able to do with the videos once they're recorded.

napoleond

The 30s buffer is a good idea but it would obviously be best if that were longer. We've had the same in the 'black boxes' in the cars for years.
As for the videos themselves, they are VERY strictly controlled and any downloading of content is fully audited.
We've (everyone I've worked with) have been asking for bodycams for years. They are ace!

tim_wand

I used to work in the Prison Service, In both the Segregation Unit and on Tornado (Riot response) teams.

Most of our use of Force , was planned removals , or response to an on going incident. On all planned use of Force there was always a member of the team who would video the incident and paradoxically there were never any allegations of assault or excessive use of force made.

Staff trained in the same techniques and to the same standard would also have to respond instantaneously to incidents were no camera other than those in fixed positions was available , and on almost all of these occasions there would be some kind of allegation made against staff for using excessive force or improper practice.

Now either staff were conscious of the cameras and adapted their behaviour accordingly, or the prisoners were aware of the cameras and adapted their allegations accordingly. Either way it was a better operating environment for all concerned when everything was recorded on camera.

Mark Duggan was prevalent in a Gang Culture, that one way or another wanted to intimidate and condition Police into a situation where it was untouchable and impeachable . They didn't want to be subject to scrutiny and policing. If we continue in the media to support claims of victimisation we will end up with a Met Police force which is too fearful of criticism to do its Job .

As I pointed out very early in this thread, these are fire arms officers from the same unit who very quickly and professionally contained Lee Rigby's killers and then switched to administering first aid to their attackers within seconds.

Also paradoxical that One of Rigby's killers has been successful in getting 5 prison officers at Hmp Belmarsh suspended when they had to legitimately use force whilst intervening in an incident involving him .

The camera footage of this shows no wrong doing, but the politics of the situation means that those 5 officers still remain suspended from duty. (That's how conditioning works)

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

Colinthecop wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I imagine it's this kind of stuff which is makes those in Tottenham so angry.

Imagine...? You can do better than that.

Why don't you go there, have a walk around the farm, and and see how quickly you need those that you seem to despise so much.

See. You're not even ashamed to be associated with the people who did that to my mate. You just close ranks.

That's the problem. Let's hear you say that some police behave badly.

Police were fine with me when I got assaulted. Good even. For sure. But I'm white and middle class. I was eloquent and try to be a good citizen.

But then I go out clubbing with a black mate and he gets harassed by the police for no legitimate reason. Every weekend until he stopped going clubbing.


What was the stat? When go pros were added to Police in Rialto, use of force by Police dropped by 2/3 instantly. The sooner they come here the better. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=44427

But by your own admission it was the same officers every time so 3 out of over 30,000. I suspect the ratio of people who are bad at their job or even openly racist is greater than 1:10,000 in any walk of life. If they were doing this regularly to your mate then they were probably doing it to others so I'm surprised reporting them with a log of each stop and search didn't see them rooted out. Maybe it was just him they didn't like rather than the colour of his skin?

GiantMike

tim wand wrote:

If we continue in the media to support claims of victimisation we will end up with a Met Police force which is too fearful of criticism to do its Job

Equally, if the public and media don't have confidence in the police they are unable to do their job. The first people who should be rooting out the bad coppers are the good coppers, just as the good politicians turned on the bad politicians during the expenses scandal.

It may be a small minority that causes a problem, but how does that help me if I ever get stitched-up? This thread isn't about what a good or bad job the police do, it's about why, even after an extensive trial and an internal investigation, some people are still convinced there is a cover-up. Because the police have a history of cover-ups, lying and malice, the idea has traction. Most coppers aren't ''wrong 'uns'', but enough have been to taint the force in the eyes of some of the public, and the media sees this as an opportunity to make a story.

nathancom

Another mistake?

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/video-cases-against-two-student-protesters-dropped-after-footage-shows-shocking-inconsistencies-in-police-officers-account-of-events-9057016.html

napoleond

My mate Alan was prosecuted for pervert the course of justice and assault after an anti EDL marcher made a complaint against him following his arrest.
It went all the way to York Crown where finally the CCTV was shown and it showed Alan's version of events. The case wasn't even heard as a result. Unbelievable. He went through 18 months of hell.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... se-4331332

steerpike

My experiences of dealing with the Police, as a white middle class male, are uniformly negative. I can count among those experiences: wrongful arrest, assault, being encouraged to lie in a witness statement (twice on separate occasions) not to mention being patronised and condescended (which is to be expected after all).

I have long held the view that the Police force attracts a sizeable minority of egotists, bullies and sociopaths which is backed up by my experience. I suspect that another sizeable proportion goes in with good intentions but becomes institutionalised by the dominant prevailing attitudes.

Colinthecop is really helping to change my perceptions though it must be said. :roll:

napoleond

I've never been described as a sociopathic bully with ego issues before!
I get called camp quite a lot though.

I take it you made complaints on each of those occasions though steer pike. Each one of those allegations against the officers is a serious discipline or criminal offence, I would not want to be working alongside officers that did that.

debeli

I witnessed the aftermath of an armed robbery in the early 80s (without knowing what was going on). I got a good, long look at both suspects and was able to identify them before making a witness statement toan MPFS sergeant.

He was very keen for me to say that I'd seen a weapon, but I hadn't. We went too and fro for qute a while ("these are hard bastards and need to be taken out of circulation"), but I stuck to my original statement. He was at pains to say (quite forcefully) that my failure to mention the weapon could be used by the defence to sow doubt in the minds of the jury.

In the end, it went to court (doh!) and was called. I got about twenty seconds in court, where defence counsel asked some fairly unpenetrative questions about nothing very much. The suspects were found guilty some days later.

For all my liberal , wishy-washy ways, I cannot get too cross about the man who tried to change my statement. It was clear that the suspects were guilty and he just wanted to sew the thing up tightly. He failed with me, but may have succeeded with others. They went down and as a consequence they weren't robbing building societies for a year or two... or crashing into me while failing to make a get-away.

Colinthecop

steerpike wrote:

My experiences of dealing with the Police, as a white middle class male, are uniformly negative.

Out of interest, how does one become middle class...?

I've thought about aspiring to it, perhaps by working hard, but then realised working hard would just make me a harder working, working class.

Yellow Peril

Colinthecop wrote:

steerpike wrote:

My experiences of dealing with the Police, as a white middle class male, are uniformly negative.

Out of interest, how does one become middle class...?

I've thought about aspiring to it, perhaps by working hard, but then realised working hard would just make me a harder working, working class.

You become middle class by being employed, being a homeowner (although I think you could scope an exception to this in the South East) having a car on the drive with a television and a refridgerator. Police officers are middle class.

sloppyschleckonds

Colinthecop wrote:

Out of interest, how does one become middle class...?

Be professionally qualified in a job (doctor, lawyer etc) have a joint/ family income in excess of £300,000 and enjoy skiing holidays.

7 out of 10 Brits believe they are 'Middle Class'

GiantMike

Colinthecop wrote:

Out of interest, how does one become middle class...?

The middles classes listen to Radio 4 and understand it, buy their chutney from Waitrose and don't have a chip on their shoulder about it.

Yellow Peril

There are lots of middle class, lots of underclass and a small working class and then there are some very rich people as well

Pinarello 00000001 is well middle class as he is obsessed by recycling and only rides Italian bikes with shagpag on

Colinthecop

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Be professionally qualified in a job (doctor, lawyer etc) have a joint/ family income in excess of £300,000 and enjoy skiing holidays.

Does it have to be all of them...?

If not, I'm off to France in a couple of weeks snowboarding with some mates. Hopefully that upgrades me to middle class...

I tell you, looking down on the plebs is gonna be great.

bianchimoon

Colinthecop wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Be professionally qualified in a job (doctor, lawyer etc) have a joint/ family income in excess of £300,000 and enjoy skiing holidays.

I tell you, looking down on the plebs is gonna be great.

it's not all it's cracked up to be, once upon a time they'd use their cloth caps to wipe the dirt from your shoes, nowadays you have to actually take the cloth cap from their grubby heads and wipe your own shoes, what's the world coming to- eh?

rick_chasey

You obviously don't work near leadenhall market.