Mark Duggan inquest

finchy

Bozman wrote:

Dodgy point, if Mr Duggan had been white would you get this level of coverage by the Beeb(The BBC were camped outside the local nick in Tottenham last night just waiting for it to kick off ),

The case got so much attention because of the riots which followed.

Bozman wrote:

would the white community be up in arms saying that he'd been executed by the police

Has the black community? Who speaks for them and what has been said? I can't say I've been following this case too closely

Bozman wrote:

and would all the lefties come out of the woodwork slamming the police and backing the local community.

Which ones?

Garry H

laurentian wrote:

If a verdict of Unlawful Killing had been arrived at, would the police officer who pulled the trigger be guilty of it or would it be the Police Force?

Wouldn't have thought so. It was an inquest into the incident, he was not on trial. Not sure if then the CPS would have pushed for a charge though.

Bozman

johnfinch wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Dodgy point, if Mr Duggan had been white would you get this level of coverage by the Beeb(The BBC were camped outside the local nick in Tottenham last night just waiting for it to kick off ),

The case got so much attention because of the riots which followed.

Bozman wrote:

would the white community be up in arms saying that he'd been executed by the police

Has the black community? Who speaks for them and what has been said? I can't say I've been following this case too closely

Bozman wrote:

and would all the lefties come out of the woodwork slamming the police and backing the local community.

Which ones?

All of the above, after listening to phone-ins on 5Live yesterday morning/night.
Executed was brought up again and again by the black community, I had to switch the radio off in the end due to the constant barrage from the left wanting answers for this travesty of justice - an innocent man has been killed. Well the mixed race jury didn't seem to think so did they.
I am in no doubt now that if Duggan had been white It'd be "one less scumbag on the streets" and apart from his family no one would give a toss.

rick_chasey

Still no explaination why the police originally lied to the IPC and to the press about being fired upon.

Similarly with plebgate.

Does not fill me with confidence and trust in the police.

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

Still no explaination why the police originally lied to the IPC and to the press about being fired upon.

Possibly that for one of the officers, the first he knew about it was getting shot from Duggan's direction? Not immediately obvious that the bullet came through him, not from him.

rick_chasey

The police have a habit of it. They pump out a lie, retract it later when the story is out of the public eye and the damage has been done.

Frank the tank

Rick Chasey wrote:

Still no explaination why the police originally lied to the IPC and to the press about being fired upon.

Similarly with plebgate.

Does not fill me with confidence and trust in the police.

Perhaps it was a case of realising a dangerous but "unarmed" man had been shot and human nature is to preserve ones self be it from death or prosecution, I don't know.

Frank Wilson

Give it a rest, sick of hearing about it and Stephen Lawrence and Anthony Walker.

Don't get the same level of coverage when it's the other way round or b on b.

Colinthecop

Rick Chasey wrote:

The police have a habit of it. They pump out a lie, retract it later when the story is out of the public eye and the damage has been done.

Do you wear your tinfoil hat over or under your cycle helmet...?

finchy

Bozman wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Dodgy point, if Mr Duggan had been white would you get this level of coverage by the Beeb(The BBC were camped outside the local nick in Tottenham last night just waiting for it to kick off ),

The case got so much attention because of the riots which followed.

Bozman wrote:

would the white community be up in arms saying that he'd been executed by the police

Has the black community? Who speaks for them and what has been said? I can't say I've been following this case too closely

Bozman wrote:

and would all the lefties come out of the woodwork slamming the police and backing the local community.

Which ones?

All of the above, after listening to phone-ins on 5Live yesterday morning/night.
Executed was brought up again and again by the black community, I had to switch the radio off in the end due to the constant barrage from the left wanting answers for this travesty of justice - an innocent man has been killed. Well the mixed race jury didn't seem to think so did they.
I am in no doubt now that if Duggan had been white It'd be "one less scumbag on the streets" and apart from his family no one would give a toss.

Radio phone-ins aren't exactly representative of society. They just attract nutjobs with extreme, deranged opinions (and no, I've never called in ).

Ever listened to Down The Line? That comedy really got it spot on.

Bozman

johnfinch wrote:

Bozman wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Dodgy point, if Mr Duggan had been white would you get this level of coverage by the Beeb(The BBC were camped outside the local nick in Tottenham last night just waiting for it to kick off ),

The case got so much attention because of the riots which followed.

Bozman wrote:

would the white community be up in arms saying that he'd been executed by the police

Has the black community? Who speaks for them and what has been said? I can't say I've been following this case too closely

Bozman wrote:

and would all the lefties come out of the woodwork slamming the police and backing the local community.

Which ones?

All of the above, after listening to phone-ins on 5Live yesterday morning/night.
Executed was brought up again and again by the black community, I had to switch the radio off in the end due to the constant barrage from the left wanting answers for this travesty of justice - an innocent man has been killed. Well the mixed race jury didn't seem to think so did they.
I am in no doubt now that if Duggan had been white It'd be "one less scumbag on the streets" and apart from his family no one would give a toss.

Radio phone-ins aren't exactly representative of society. They just attract nutjobs with extreme, deranged opinions (and no, I've never called in ).

Ever listened to Down The Line? That comedy really got it spot on.

I know that they not, they do the job of winding folk up(me). It'd be a pointless show if everyone had a sane and sensible point of view.

A few years ago when things were slack at work we'd have a look at what the 5live phone-in subject was, if we liked the look of the subject we would send texts through with a fabricated point of view or story concerning the subject. nine times out of ten the most outlandish tail would get a call back from the shows researcher.

GiantMike

Colinthecop wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The police have a habit of it. They pump out a lie, retract it later when the story is out of the public eye and the damage has been done.

'Ello ello ello, wot's all this then? Do you wear your tinfoil 'at over or hunder your cycle helmet sonny...? Did you just call me a pleb? I'll get my mate to complain about you while I falsify the police log.

FTFY. Obviously I'm only joking and I'm not suggesting you're one of the few 'bad apples'.

verylonglegs

Plebgate was notable to me for occuring so soon after it had been revealed that the police had lied repeatedly about the Hillsborough disaster, it was within the same week if I remember correctly. You'd have thought the coppers would have seen that story in the press and thought better of coming up with a pack of lies.

Colinthecop

The Police did not lie at Hilsborough. When the officers wrote their statements they were critical of the seniorr officers and their decision making. A statement should be factual as opposed to opinion. A solicitor working on behalf of the Force subsequently went through every statement and removed anything which was critical or blamed the management. The reasoning being that it was opinion and not factual. The officers did not find out their statements had been 'doctored' until many years later.

As a result of this the headlines screamed about altered statements which did not contain the truth. Which I guess is true, however it did not mean the officers lied.

If you feel you need to base your current opinions on the police on an incident that happened 25 years or so ago, I guess that's down to you.

As for 'plebgate', the officer did not have the faith in his bosses to stand up to the Government in an incident where the Chief Whip should have been arrested. You go up to a Policeman in London and start swearing at them, as Mitchell accepted he did, and see how quickly you get arrested. The officer who witnessed this, did not feel it was correct and knew it would be swept under the carpet. He did not trust the 'whistleblower' policy, so rightly or wrongly he reported what he saw, claiming to be a member of the public, albeit anonymously, knowing it was the only way to get it the public domain.

Perhaps its just me, but I don't think the Police on the street have actedly badly in either situation, but then again I don't read and believe what I read in the gutter press.

Frank the tank

The jury consisted of ordinary folk, do you think regardless of direction or what the options were the majority just felt good riddance to bad rubbish?

I know the police are far from squeaky clean but given a choice between having a police force enforcing law and order and the likes of Duggan and his likes where would the majority of law abiding citizens stand.

I can't help but think that must have been an over riding thought when they each drew their conclusion.

debeli

Colinthecop wrote:

As for 'plebgate', the officer did not have the faith in his bosses to stand up to the Government in an incident where the Chief Whip should have been arrested. You go up to a Policeman in London and start swearing at them, as Mitchell accepted he did, and see how quickly you get arrested. The officer who witnessed this, did not feel it was correct and knew it would be swept under the carpet. He did not trust the 'whistleblower' policy, so rightly or wrongly he reported what he saw, claiming to be a member of the public, albeit anonymously, knowing it was the only way to get it the public domain.

Perhaps its just me, but I don't think the Police on the street have actedly badly in either situation, but then again I don't read and believe what I read in the gutter press.

I accept (and agree broadly) with your point on Hillsborough and I am generally a strong supporter of the British police, but your facts are wrong on the Andrew Mitchell case. The officer (Keith Wallis) who sent pretended to be a member of the public did not witness the event at all. He was elsewhere. What he did was utterly and unmitigably wrong. I support the police action on Duggan, but Keith Wallis lied about witnessing an incident involving Mitchell and his actions have damaged the MPS.

verylonglegs

Colinthecop wrote:

The Police did not lie at Hilsborough. When the officers wrote their statements they were critical of the seniorr officers and their decision making. A statement should be factual as opposed to opinion. A solicitor working on behalf of the Force subsequently went through every statement and removed anything which was critical or blamed the management. The reasoning being that it was opinion and not factual. The officers did not find out their statements had been 'doctored' until many years later.

As a result of this the headlines screamed about altered statements which did not contain the truth. Which I guess is true, however it did not mean the officers lied.

If you feel you need to base your current opinions on the police on an incident that happened 25 years or so ago, I guess that's down to you.

As for 'plebgate', the officer did not have the faith in his bosses to stand up to the Government in an incident where the Chief Whip should have been arrested. You go up to a Policeman in London and start swearing at them, as Mitchell accepted he did, and see how quickly you get arrested. The officer who witnessed this, did not feel it was correct and knew it would be swept under the carpet. He did not trust the 'whistleblower' policy, so rightly or wrongly he reported what he saw, claiming to be a member of the public, albeit anonymously, knowing it was the only way to get it the public domain.

Perhaps its just me, but I don't think the Police on the street have actedly badly in either situation, but then again I don't read and believe what I read in the gutter press.

You don't think a policeman writing to his MP claiming to have seen something he couldn't have is acting badly? Why has he offered to resign then?

I don't base my opinion of the police on what the press have to offer, it's founded on what I've encountered. That is to say their are some damn good coppers who make you feel grateful they are wearing the uniform but also some who quite frankly shouldn't be anywhere near a position of authority of any sort. It's a halfway house, I don't think you can extend open trust to anyone just because they are carrying the badge but equally it's not reasonable to dismiss them all as tainted either.

DeVlaeminck

Colinthecop wrote:

The Police did not lie at Hilsborough. When the officers wrote their statements they were critical of the seniorr officers and their decision making. A statement should be factual as opposed to opinion. A solicitor working on behalf of the Force subsequently went through every statement and removed anything which was critical or blamed the management. The reasoning being that it was opinion and not factual. The officers did not find out their statements had been 'doctored' until many years later.
.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... ments.html

I don't know if the telegraph counts as the "gutter press" but that seems to be a rather different take on it. I also seem to remember a senior police officer led officials to believe that the gates had been rushed and forced open rather than opened by the police.

The accepted wisdom seems to be that the police did cover their role in the disaster.

rick_chasey

Colinthecop wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The police have a habit of it. They pump out a lie, retract it later when the story is out of the public eye and the damage has been done.

Do you wear your tinfoil hat over or under your cycle helmet...?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... bgate.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21455888

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... dence.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... bgate.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17537293 < Police lying about Duggan shooting first.


http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2007/8/2 ... menezes-sh << police making multiple lies about Menezes.

There you go. 6 different instances from national news outlets of police lying. One of them is at the 'accused' stage.

And I've even avoided the 'leftwing' press.


Is it not unreasonable that I am now sceptical of the police when I hear their story?

nathancom

The History of Police lies would be an incredibly thick book. Just to add to the list, the West Midlands Serious Crime Unit responsible for several miscarriages of justice such as the Birmingham six. The level of corruption and abuse of power led to the unit being disbanded.

Who would really be surprised if it was proven that the Duggan weapon was planted?

GiantMike

They arrested the man who sold him the gun just before Duggan was shot.

DeVlaeminck

Yes but it's possible they took the gun from the cab and placed it where it was found to make it look like he chucked it.

Colinthecop

Rick Chasey wrote:

There you go. 6 different instances from national news outlets of police lying.

There's 5, one of them you've cut-n-pasted twice.

Actually 4, one of them relates to the idiots at the IPCC.

Good job the most difficult decision you make in a day is, shall I write in blue or black ink today, as with the mistakes you make in one simple most make it questionable if you could deal with life changing life or death decisions made in a split second.

So leave it to those that can, you stay safe behind your keyboard and criticise from there. :roll:

rick_chasey

With the power to kill people comes responsibility. If you're unable to work out if someone has shot at you or not, you shouldn't be in a position to kill someone, legally or otherwise.

What's your response to the Charles de Menezes case or police originally claiming they returned fire at Duggan?

Reporting what they did was not a split second decision. I'm not arguing the actual shooting, I'm not in a position to, but they are loosing trust from people like me when they lie to the press.

I imagine you don't like the IPCC because they ask questions the police don't like?

Like how every time I went out with a group of friends with one black guy the same 3 policemen stopped and searched him every time? None of the rest of us, even one who has a record, but just the black guy?

He's a doctor now. Still gets stopped by the police when he comes home from a late shift at the hospital.

Colinthecop

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not arguing the actual shooting, I'm not in a position to, but they are loosing trust from people like me when they lie to the press.

But is it lies or is it a mistake...?

The press need to know whats going on. When Duggan was shot you can bet the press would have been on the phone when the Cops where still doing CPR.

So the scenario is, a bad guy with a gun, shot and killed. Illegal firearm recovered, one officer hit by a bullet.

I'm guessing when the phone was ringing we never had the ballistics report to say the bullet that hit the Cop was fired from a Police issue MP5 and travelled through Duggans arm.

No I was not party to any press release but I would bet it was that factual. The only people who reported that Duggan had opened fire was the IPCC. Might be down to inexperience, it might be down to incompetence, I don't know. All I do know is, they are generally considered to be idiots not to be trusted and clearly not fit for purpose.

So don't blame the Police for their Fcuk-ups...

oldhairylegs

Frank the tank wrote:

I know the police are far from squeaky clean but given a choice between having a police force enforcing law and order and the likes of Duggan and his likes where would the majority of law abiding citizens stand.

Well said Frank.
Whilst our police forces are clearly not squeaky clean, we should all be very grateful that they are prepared to put their lives on the line in tackling armed scumbags.

GiantMike

oldhairylegs wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I know the police are far from squeaky clean but given a choice between having a police force enforcing law and order and the likes of Duggan and his likes where would the majority of law abiding citizens stand.

Well said Frank.
Whilst our police forces are clearly not squeaky clean, we should all be very grateful that they are prepared to put their lives on the line in tackling armed scumbags.

True, but the public will always be sceptical as long as the Police investigate themselves and regularly lie (ahem, make mistakes). People are questioning the inquest verdict not because they listened to the whole thing, but because their experience or knowledge of the police makes them think the shooting was suspicious. And it's not just 'scum' that gets fitted up, it's ministers too.

mamba80

oldhairylegs wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I know the police are far from squeaky clean but given a choice between having a police force enforcing law and order and the likes of Duggan and his likes where would the majority of law abiding citizens stand.

Well said Frank.
Whilst our police forces are clearly not squeaky clean, we should all be very grateful that they are prepared to put their lives on the line in tackling armed scumbags.

Well they get very well paid for it, have virtual immunity from prosecution, fantastic pensions and judging by the number fcuk ups over the years aren't very good at it either. Unlike a soldier who will have the book thrown at him/her when they mess up, have a far greater chance of ending up on a slab and for a fraction of the money.

the police in this country are supposed to be unarmed and police with consent - when I worked in London, some great engineers would be repeatedly stopped for one reason...they were black - public trust in the police is at an all time low and police know it, whether they can stop the rot is another matter...give a dog a bad name an all that.

Colinthecop

mamba80 wrote:

Well they get very well paid for it, have virtual immunity from prosecution, fantastic pensions and judging by the number fcuk ups over the years aren't very good at it either. Unlike a soldier who will have the book thrown at him/her when they mess up, have a far greater chance of ending up on a slab and for a fraction of the money.

Your naivety is staggering. :roll:

napoleond

Some very emotive posting here.
People should bear in mind the media agenda though when reading their 'stories'.
Thousands and thousands of good jobs get done for every one 'fcuk up'. Unfortunately they don't make for good copy. In fact, the bare truth about these 'fcuk ups' often doesn't make for good copy.