Imperial Winter series 4 jan

Sir Velo

Does anyone have any news on the guy that crashed out today at Hillingdon, not good for the air ambulance to be needed but let's hope only precautionary.

TakeTurns

Oh my, that doesn't sound good. Conditions weren't great today.

jibberjim

Sir Velo wrote:

Does anyone have any news on the guy that crashed out today at Hillingdon, not good for the air ambulance to be needed but let's hope only precautionary.

Reports I've heard are that it's nothing more serious than Broken Ribs fortunately.

fish156

@ThamesVelo: Latest news on Martin Porter is that he has five broken ribs and a damaged elbow. Currently in the trauma unit at St Marys.

imposter2.0

jesus - one rib is bad enough....but five..!! :shock:

GWS

philbar72

Because it allows you to participate in racing with riders that have little perception of spacial awareness? actually thats unfair, most are perfectly good, but there are always some choppers...

i've done 4 of these this season and have really enjoyed them, when i'm off the front. When in the bunch its enough to cause a panic attack. I wish i was kidding. people need constant reminders that riders are near them and to their outside and inside. its almost as if some think they are in their own bubble.

Weirdly, the 4ths (which i take part in) haven't been crash fests, the E123 stuff has though. feel sorry for the lad as i was there, and he looked to be in a bad way. Glad to see he is recovering.

maryka

madasahattersley wrote:

Horrendous crashes every year, multiple broken bones, races still on even when there's ice on the ground, provides an unneeded ego boost for the people who win it every week, remind me again why the winter series exists?

Gross misrepresentation, unless you want to say the same thing about the Severn RR where someone got killed -- that race is still happening this year.

Never understood the need for people to sh!t on other people's racing/training choices. If you don't like the winter series, don't race it, simple as that.

bigmat

Was in a couple of nasty winter series races at Cyclopark last winter - problems seemed to occur when a) the field was too big and b) there were different races going on at the same time / lapped riders not being pulled. Put it down to my bike handling skills (or lack of) at the time but in retrospect those races were nasty. Maybe the E123 field is too large and too mixed in terms of ability / experience? Or maybe this was just bad luck. Either way, get well soon Martin.

edeverett

@Luke - have you raced the Imperial Winter Series? The team that run the event seem very careful and concerned with rider safety, to imply they'd run a race with a dangerous course is just nonsense.

I can only talk about the 4ths race, but I'd say it's a well run race for beginners and would encourage people wanting to start racing to join in. Of course if you have novice racers together you increase your chances of a crash, but I don't think I've seen any stupid riding. Inexperienced, naive, weak etc. but not stupid. This is surely what you should expect from a 4th cat race - we're all learning. But most of the time it's fun and safe and good racing.

The riders who worry me are the over-confident who are always shouting at the less experienced or shouting at people when they try to get through a gap that is too small. "Too small" here means too small for the rider being passed as well as the rider passing. Quite often you're riding alongside or behind someone who is a bit nervous and you just need to give them a bit more room - safe riding should be a collaborative effort between the more confident riders and the less confident.

If you see the 4th cats race as an introduction to racing it's great. If you think it's going to be pro-level then you'll be disappointed.

bigmat

Shouldn't exist? That's a bit extreme. Some of us like a quick thrash during the off season. Personally I tend to have more weekends free in winter than I do in summer so its a lot easier to get out racing. I wouldn't race if it was icy but otherwise why the hell not? The cold wind and rain is just character building.

racingcondor

More than a bit extreme. I've done a few each year for years and until last weekend the worst I'd see was a collarbone.

Mat - I didn't see it but it seems to have just been poor riding by someone (no idea who, there seem to have been 4-5 riders down and I don't know if any of them caused it). It wasn't on a corner and happened at the back of the bunch a few rows behind me.

I've raced Hillingdon when it's icy. There are, as you'd expect a couple of sections of the circuit (mostly the inside corner before the finish straight) that get effected and they just get coned off. It's completely safe if you avoid riding like a prat and listen to the pre-race briefing.

Sadly there are always a few riders who aren't safe but I don't see how that's changed much by the time of year...

In any case, if Martin or any of his mates are reading this hope you're recovering well and you heal up soon.

DavidJB

Plenty of other races on apart from Hillingdon on...4 per weekend in the London area now! I'm driving from Newbury to Brighton every weekend for a crit atm as there's nothing round here apart from the odd one in Bath, but this weekend at Brighton is my last...it will be illford next.

Never raced at Hillingdon, every time I ever here about it there's been a crash or peoples cars getting broken in to. Don't think I'll ever race there.

maryka

madasahattersley wrote:

How am I 'sh!tting on other peoples racing/training choices'? There's a long long long long list of things I care about before caring about whether you want to go to Hillingdon, break your leg there whatever I just don't care. This is a discussion board, not a 'don't express that opinion, I don't agree with it' board. I don't think winter series racing should exist, you obviously do. Good, thanks.

Just because winter racing doesn't suit you, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. :roll: Or I guess BC should consult you to see what type of racing fits your ideal and then only allow those races to be scheduled? Aren't you like 20 years old or something? No offense but you have no idea what 3rd cats in their 30s and 40s want so stop sh!tting on their races.

philbar72

edeverett wrote:

@Luke - have you raced the Imperial Winter Series? The team that run the event seem very careful and concerned with rider safety, to imply they'd run a race with a dangerous course is just nonsense.

I can only talk about the 4ths race, but I'd say it's a well run race for beginners and would encourage people wanting to start racing to join in. Of course if you have novice racers together you increase your chances of a crash, but I don't think I've seen any stupid riding. Inexperienced, naive, weak etc. but not stupid. This is surely what you should expect from a 4th cat race - we're all learning. But most of the time it's fun and safe and good racing.

If you see the 4th cats race as an introduction to racing it's great. If you think it's going to be pro-level then you'll be disappointed.

This puts the experience in a far better context than i did in my previous post. there are very few incidences of crass stupidity from most of the peloton, though there are always some shaky moments because perhaps of nerves or inexperience, and everyone in the 4ths looks like they are enjoying it. as a learning experience of what you can/cannot do its very impressive. I'm hooked, despite my nervousness in the bunch of others wobbling around. its part of the learning curve. most are good riders, some have strengths and weaknesses just like any other sport!

I'd second what you said about the organisers efforts. they are thorough and efficient. Decent people as well.

the stuff about thefts from cars is based around parking in Goals car park with expensive bits and bobs on show in your car. you'd have to be stupid to carry anything other than the basics you require for racing in your car around that area. Just use common sense.

ugo.santalucia

May I ask what's the point of the air ambulance when Hillingdon Hospital is probably 3 miles away and Ealing Hospital even less? They both have A&E as far as I am aware.
Sounds like the NHS wants to become the RAF?

racingcondor

Re thefts from the circuit. I ride out there and back and carry a reasonably good lock. Means I get 50 miles + of riding and my bike it a much less attractive option than an unlocked one. It's not like Hog Hill and CycloPark haven't had thefts so protect your assets.

Ugo - Not sure but they weren't taking any chances. We had the usual estate car to assess him, then an ambulance pulled up and they asked for witensses to the accident so I can only assume that they were worried about the torso injury.

ugo.santalucia

racingcondor wrote:

Ugo - Not sure but they weren't taking any chances. We had the usual estate car to assess him, then an ambulance pulled up and they asked for witensses to the accident so I can only assume that they were worried about the torso injury.

When I worked for the ambulance service back in Italy, the helicopter was only deployed for road accidents outside town or for urgent emergencies in remote locations. Any other case, it was quicker to get there with a vehicle ambulance. The helicopter is quite slow for short journeys... by the time you gun the engine, you're probably there already with the vehicle.
If neither Hillingdon nor Ealing A&E can cope with a chest emergency, then it makes sense to use the elicopter, but that is quite worrying about the state of those A&E I would say...

buckles

fish156 wrote:

@ThamesVelo: Latest news on Martin Porter is that he has five broken ribs and a damaged elbow. Currently in the trauma unit at St Marys.

Poor Martin. I saw him crash in 2012 (entirely someone else's fault), little did I realise he'd taken a pretty hard knock to the head and suffered quite badly. I hope it doesn't make him quit the sport.

ugo.santalucia

Buckles wrote:

Poor Martin. I saw him crash in 2012 (entirely someone else's fault), little did I realise he'd taken a pretty hard knock to the head and suffered quite badly. I hope it doesn't make him quit the sport.

I have a few friends who have tried racing with various success and pretty much all give nup after the first or second crash. One thing is crashing when you are 20, made of rubber, without kids and mortgage, another thing is crashing when you are 40 and have all of the above.
Most switch to Time trialling, which doesn't have the adrenaline, but it still has the competitive element and it's a lot safer.
I totally symphatise with the Mamils who quit racing....

philbar72

There are a real mixed bag who enter these races, Ugo. i'm over 40, but there are some who are in their teens and all the way up to (i'd suggest) mid 50's. age is not an obstacle. its friendly outside of the race, and thats the reason i've virtually quit football and rugby, as there aren't as many cranky people that often cheat, or try deliberately to injure you!

I'll also be doing some club tens come springtime. try something different.

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Most switch to Time trialling, which doesn't have the adrenaline, but it still has the competitive element and it's a lot safer.

Except the death rate in TTs is statistically higher...

DavidJB

madasahattersley wrote:

maryka wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

How am I 'sh!tting on other peoples racing/training choices'? There's a long long long long list of things I care about before caring about whether you want to go to Hillingdon, break your leg there whatever I just don't care. This is a discussion board, not a 'don't express that opinion, I don't agree with it' board. I don't think winter series racing should exist, you obviously do. Good, thanks.

Just because winter racing doesn't suit you, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. :roll: Or I guess BC should consult you to see what type of racing fits your ideal and then only allow those races to be scheduled? Aren't you like 20 years old or something? No offense but you have no idea what 3rd cats in their 30s and 40s want so stop sh!tting on their races.

Hahaha more of the old 'you're only 18 so NO OFFENCE but your opinion doesn't count as much.' Love it.

I'm glad for winter racing as I have to have a couple of months off of racing in March/April so I can actually get a full season in racing Dec-Feb. You can 'break you leg' in any bloody race, summer or winter.

greeny12

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Poor Martin. I saw him crash in 2012 (entirely someone else's fault), little did I realise he'd taken a pretty hard knock to the head and suffered quite badly. I hope it doesn't make him quit the sport.

I have a few friends who have tried racing with various success and pretty much all give nup after the first or second crash. One thing is crashing when you are 20, made of rubber, without kids and mortgage, another thing is crashing when you are 40 and have all of the above.
Most switch to Time trialling, which doesn't have the adrenaline, but it still has the competitive element and it's a lot safer.
I totally symphatise with the Mamils who quit racing....

Too true. I've raced for the past three seasons and if I'm honest I never got over the fear factor. Only came off once myself (in my first ever race, as it happens!) but have witnessed plenty of carnage along the way and there but the grace of God etc...

Might do some Vets stuff potentially (I'm 46) but hard to see past that. Sometimes a man has to know his limitations...

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

Except the death rate in TTs is statistically higher...

They might have a higher death rate, but they also have a significantly lower risk of injuries. You are the one advising people to get a cheap bike for racing as they'll get thrashed, so you can't now change the cards on the table...
Nobody here was mentioning death, I just said that if you have a family and responsabilities, you end up thinking twice about racing after the first accident...
Some people don't make money if they don't work, others don't have very sympathetitic employers... not to speak about the fact that if you can't walk or drive, you'll end up letting your family down...
It basically makes very little sense and that's the reason those I know have given up

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You are the one advising people to get a cheap bike for racing as they'll get thrashed, so you can't now change the cards on the table...

What? No I'm not - I have never said that. Get your facts right.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Nobody here was mentioning death, I just said that if you have a family and responsabilities, you end up thinking twice about racing after the first accident...
Some people don't make money if they don't work, others don't have very sympathetitic employers... not to speak about the fact that if you can't walk or drive, you'll end up letting your family down...
It basically makes very little sense and that's the reason those I know have given up

You said TTing was safer - I simply pointed out that the death rate in TTs is statistically higher than bunch racing. If you accept the risks, then you race. If you don't, then you stay at home. Same for TTs incidentally.

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

You said TTing was safer - I simply pointed out that the death rate in TTs is statistically higher than bunch racing.

Mmmh, yeah... right

So, you would instead suggest to get the best bike one can afford for racing at Hillingdon, as statistically it's not more likely to get crushed into pieces than on the average sunday ride or 10 miles time trial?

I don't know if it's to do with that circuit, but most of the times I went there to watch some friends racing, there was either the ambulance going or the ambulance coming

Anyway... I only commented on this thread as I was interested in the use of the helicopter ... then I got carried away...

ugo.santalucia

madasahattersley wrote:

Ugo, most people who have ride the national TT circuit for a few years know at least one friend who was killed while riding down an A road. Same can't even nearly be said for road races. Yes there are crashes, broken bones, broken frames, but the risk of time trialling is in a different league.

I have not done many TTs, but they were always at 8 AM on a sunday morning... there was barely any car around and plenty of space for the cars to overtake. I felt very safe, safer than on an average ride. There might be dangerous courses, but in Bucks I felt pretty safe

ugo.santalucia

madasahattersley wrote:

You mean Sunday mornings when most of the drivers out are still drunk? I'd challenge you to ride down the A11 at 2pm on a Saturday including going across multiple slip roads and tell me it feels safer than the average ride! I agree that quiet, sporting single carriageway courses are pretty safe most of the time.

Organising a TT at 2 PM on a saturday is not exactly genius... I wouldn't enter it... TT and traffic don't make any sense.

maryka

madasahattersley wrote:

Hahaha more of the old 'you're only 18 so NO OFFENCE but your opinion doesn't count as much.' Love it.

The more informed your opinion is, the more value other people will give it. The day a bunch of 3rd cats start telling you what kind of races should be offered in your category and the time of year they should be offered, feel free to pull out the same line.

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TT and traffic don't make any sense.

So not 'safer' then - as you put it earlier..??

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

So not 'safer' then - as you put it earlier..??

Before you told me, I did not know there were TTs run at 2 PM on a saturday. I have done a few of the West London Combine and they're early morning on a sunday.
I guess you just have to choose the clever events rather than the stupid ones, maybe? Just common sense... the same way you would not ride at 2 PM on a Saturday on the A 11, why would you race on it?