Training with power and heart rate

Max Bridges
Max Bridges Posts: 108
edited January 2014 in Training, fitness and health
Who trains with power and heart rate?

If so how do you use power in conjunction with heart rate?
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Comments

  • YellaBelly
    YellaBelly Posts: 130
    I don't use power, as I can't afford a power meter. But I would believe the two are to be used more or less side by side. Use the two side by side, and you should be able to see that your heartrate was elevated for the power you were producing on that last ride and you might be getting a bit tired. Or that you were running in a lower heart rate zone than 3 months previous for the same power output, showing your fitness has improved. It just adds another bit to the overall picture.

    Your heart rate will be more prone to change under different conditions ie/illness, temperature etc. Power meter is cold hard fact. Everything else is subject to conditions. Power is better for testing etc, as times/speeds over a course can change due to varying factors. The power you can output at any given time is directly comparable to any other run under any other conditions. More power = better performance, even if the time is slower due to a headwind etc.

    Edit/ I'm trying to be helpful, but in truth there will be others on this forum with loads of knowledge on the subject. Hopefully one of those will be along soon to give you some proper answers!
  • Lightning
    Lightning Posts: 360
    As above, I find heart rate varies way too much to be that useful if you already have a power meter. It might be somewhat useful if you don't have one, but I'd still rather train by perceived effort than heart rate. Since I do have a power meter, I never even look at my heart rate.
  • NeXXus
    NeXXus Posts: 854
    I smell a Trev :lol:
    And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.
  • markynulty
    markynulty Posts: 409
    I currently train on HR, but as I am stepping it up a gear this year with more racing (started cycling end of 2012 and did my first races last year), I am thinking of buying a power meter. I have a Rotor 3D crank with Q rings and am looking at the power2max meter. Anyone any views on this?
  • charlie_potatoes
    charlie_potatoes Posts: 1,921
    NeXXus wrote:
    I smell a Trev :lol:

    Ahh yes! Well spotted :D
    "You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul
  • wavefront
    wavefront Posts: 397
    markynulty wrote:
    I currently train on HR, but as I am stepping it up a gear this year with more racing (started cycling end of 2012 and did my first races last year), I am thinking of buying a power meter. I have a Rotor 3D crank with Q rings and am looking at the power2max meter. Anyone any views on this?

    Bought a P2M just before Christmas and so far, impressed and very quickly getting used to riding with it. I bought the Rotor 3D plus cranks to use with my BB30, and also bought Praxis rings. Fitting is very easy, and pairing with the Garmin easier still. I still need to measure the 'drift' of my unit, but the auto calibrate function should at least take care of temperature differences. Using it with Golden Cheetah so it's interesting to see my power distribution, so I've now identified the areas I need to work on!!! (All areas ;)

    As for riding with a HRM - I think it's very important, especially in the base building period - in fact Joe Friel suggests that base period should be monitored by HRM and not power, and I can sort of see his point. However, seeing the two metrics together will show fatigue, how well you are recovering from illness etc etc

    The downside is that everyone has different heart rate zones - Coggan suggests one, Friel another set. Therefore on a few rides using the Coggan HRM zones, I found I was riding in Zone 2 of power, but zone 3 of heart rate. I adjusted to Friels, and the my power zones more closely match my heart zones. However, I'm just recovering from illness so I would expect my heart rate to still be elevated, so I'm going to closely monitor my heart rates over the next week or so. I expect it to actually fall relative to my power zones as I get better, so, I may go back to using Coggans values for the heart zones.

    As I'm also still learning, I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Lightning wrote:
    As above, I find heart rate varies way too much to be that useful if you already have a power meter. It might be somewhat useful if you don't have one, but I'd still rather train by perceived effort than heart rate. Since I do have a power meter, I never even look at my heart rate.

    Have you considered looking at the power heart rate ratio?
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Who trains with power and heart rate?
    Everyone.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Who trains with power and heart rate?
    Everyone.

    Very good, everyone produces power and has a heart rate.

    But not everyone who trains with a power meter still monitors heart rate.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    madasahattersley wrote:
    Not allowed to use mine on team bike next year so I'm getting used to riding without it. TBH I'm enjoying training much more, and finding it easier to listen to my body without it.

    Quarq SRAM Red £1000 anyone?

    Why not allowed to use a power meter?

    A lot of people find the power meter takes away some of the enjoyment of cycling, but as Alex says you could always cover the display and just record power.

    have you recovered from that illness?
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    madasahattersley wrote:
    Not allowed to use mine on team bike next year so I'm getting used to riding without it. TBH I'm enjoying training much more, and finding it easier to listen to my body without it.

    Quarq SRAM Red £1000 anyone?

    LOL not allowed?

    What is the logic behind that?

    And it's easier as you're training less hard ;)
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • buckles
    buckles Posts: 694
    Max Bridges wrote:
    madasahattersley wrote:
    Not allowed to use mine on team bike next year so I'm getting used to riding without it. TBH I'm enjoying training much more, and finding it easier to listen to my body without it.

    Quarq SRAM Red £1000 anyone?

    Why not allowed to use a power meter?
    Maybe the team sponsor requires him to ride certain components as part of the contract.
    25% off your first MyProtein order: sign up via https://www.myprotein.com/referrals.lis ... EE-R29Y&li or use my referral code LEE-R29Y
  • richa
    richa Posts: 1,632
    madasahattersley wrote:
    Merckx and Hinault did alright without anyway, but hey each to their own!
    True dat. Think how good they could have been had they been training smart...
    Rich
  • richa
    richa Posts: 1,632
    Back to the OP.

    I train with HR & Power. When my files are reviewed the HR adds to the story of the ride file by qualifying the effort. e.g. constant power on a long ride, but with HR drift is different to constant power with no HR drift.
    Rich
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    madasahattersley wrote:
    okgo wrote:
    madasahattersley wrote:
    Not allowed to use mine on team bike next year so I'm getting used to riding without it. TBH I'm enjoying training much more, and finding it easier to listen to my body without it.

    Quarq SRAM Red £1000 anyone?

    LOL not allowed?

    What is the logic behind that?

    And it's easier as you're training less hard ;)

    Bikes all need to run Shimano Ulteggy and look the same. The main reason, and I can see the point he has, is about not wanting U23s to use power until you get a really good understanding of your own body and it's limits.

    I do think it's better to stay away from power until you've been racing properly for 5 years or so. Merckx and Hinault did alright without anyway, but hey each to their own!

    Get the Shimano stickers out ;)

    I may be interested if you get nearer £850 (bought almos brand new one from Dan Patten for 850) but could do with another.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Lightning wrote:
    As above, I find heart rate varies way too much to be that useful if you already have a power meter. It might be somewhat useful if you don't have one, but I'd still rather train by perceived effort than heart rate. Since I do have a power meter, I never even look at my heart rate.

    Have you considered looking at the power heart rate ratio?
    Is there a computer available that will show this or do you have to do the long division in your head?
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Lightning wrote:
    As above, I find heart rate varies way too much to be that useful if you already have a power meter. It might be somewhat useful if you don't have one, but I'd still rather train by perceived effort than heart rate. Since I do have a power meter, I never even look at my heart rate.

    Have you considered looking at the power heart rate ratio?
    Is there a computer available that will show this or do you have to do the long division in your head?

    I do it in my head, no doubt there are a few boffins who can sort out an app.

    It is more for later analysis. There is sound logic behind its use. As explained by Dr Coggan,


    ""Assuming constant thermodynamic efficiency, VO2 is proportional to power, so power:heart rate is proportional to VO2:heart rate. In turn, VO2:heart rate is proportional to the product of stroke volume and a-vO2 difference (i.e., O2 pulse). Thus, an improvement in power:heart rate is indicative of an increase in stroke volume and/or a-vO2 difference (and/or an increase in thermodynamic efficiency). That's why I've been recording my power:heart rate during ergometer workouts for >20 y. ""
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    ...That's why I've been recording my power:heart rate during ergometer workouts for >20 y. ""
    ...because someone is giving out prizes for high stroke volume? :?
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    ...That's why I've been recording my power:heart rate during ergometer workouts for >20 y. ""
    ...because someone is giving out prizes for high stroke volume? :?



    As FTP increases your watts per heart beat ratio improves.



    I suggest you re read Dr Coggan's explanation below.


    ""Assuming constant thermodynamic efficiency, VO2 is proportional to power, so power:heart rate is proportional to VO2:heart rate. In turn, VO2:heart rate is proportional to the product of stroke volume and a-vO2 difference (i.e., O2 pulse). Thus, an improvement in power:heart rate is indicative of an increase in stroke volume and/or a-vO2 difference (and/or an increase in thermodynamic efficiency). That's why I've been recording my power:heart rate during ergometer workouts for >20 y. ""
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    ...That's why I've been recording my power:heart rate during ergometer workouts for >20 y. ""
    ...because someone is giving out prizes for high stroke volume? :?


    Not just stroke volume improves when power to heart rate ratio improves. A-vo2 improves, see below from Wiki.
    In short your muscles adapt and produce more power.

    Impacts of exercise[edit]

    Physical exercise leads to an increase in the arteriovenous oxygen difference in all individuals. As exercise intensities increase, the muscles increase the amount of oxygen they extract from the blood and this therefore results in further increases in a-vO2 diff.[5]
    The maximum a-vO2 diff is also usually greater in trained athletes than in untrained individuals.[1] This is a result of aerobic exercise leading to hypertrophy of the slow twitch muscle fibres mainly due to increased capillarisation. The increase in capillary beds in the muscle means that blood supply to that muscle can be greater and diffusion of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other metabolites increases.[6] With training the muscles also improve in their ability to extract oxygen from the blood and process the oxygen,[6] possibly due to adaptations of the mitochondria and an increase in the muscle's myoglobin content.[1]
    Research has shown that following the commencement of exercise there is a delay in the increase of the a-vO2 diff, and that a-vO2 diff only has a marginal impact in the total change in VO2 in the early stages of exercise. The bulk of the early increase in oxygen consumption after a sudden change in exercise levels results from increased cardiac output.[4] However it has also been found that the increase in the maximal a-vO2 diff resulting from adaptations to a physical training program can account for most of the difference in VO2 max in subjects participating in sub-maximal exercise.[7]
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    I thought Coggan was the Enemy Trev? But now you've found a quote where he mentions HR and you're using it to troll?
    More problems but still living....
  • LegendLust
    LegendLust Posts: 1,022
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    ...That's why I've been recording my power:heart rate during ergometer workouts for >20 y. ""
    ...because someone is giving out prizes for high stroke volume? :?


    Not just stroke volume improves when power to heart rate ratio improves. A-vo2 improves, see below from Wiki.
    In short your muscles adapt and produce more power.

    Impacts of exercise[edit]

    Physical exercise leads to an increase in the arteriovenous oxygen difference in all individuals. As exercise intensities increase, the muscles increase the amount of oxygen they extract from the blood and this therefore results in further increases in a-vO2 diff.[5]
    The maximum a-vO2 diff is also usually greater in trained athletes than in untrained individuals.[1] This is a result of aerobic exercise leading to hypertrophy of the slow twitch muscle fibres mainly due to increased capillarisation. The increase in capillary beds in the muscle means that blood supply to that muscle can be greater and diffusion of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other metabolites increases.[6] With training the muscles also improve in their ability to extract oxygen from the blood and process the oxygen,[6] possibly due to adaptations of the mitochondria and an increase in the muscle's myoglobin content.[1]
    Research has shown that following the commencement of exercise there is a delay in the increase of the a-vO2 diff, and that a-vO2 diff only has a marginal impact in the total change in VO2 in the early stages of exercise. The bulk of the early increase in oxygen consumption after a sudden change in exercise levels results from increased cardiac output.[4] However it has also been found that the increase in the maximal a-vO2 diff resulting from adaptations to a physical training program can account for most of the difference in VO2 max in subjects participating in sub-maximal exercise.[7]

    Jeez I'd hate to get stuck in a lift with you :roll:
    Selling my Legend frame
    http://owningalegend.wordpress.com/2014 ... ced-price/
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Coggan does more than mention heart rate, he explains he used it with power for decades.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Can someone remind me what the point of this thread is??
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Imposter wrote:
    Can someone remind me what the point of this thread is??

    To see how people use power and heart rate if they do use heart rate with power.

    Indoors where I can control everything, I use power heart rate ratio to track improvement, without the need to do all out tests which for various reasons I avoid, I am able to predict my max 20 min power to within 5 watts.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    As FTP increases your watts per heart beat ratio improves.
    That would also depend on your heart rate...
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    As FTP increases your watts per heart beat ratio improves.
    That would also depend on your heart rate...


    No amount of training will increase your max heart rate, in fact your max heart rate can decrease with training. You can marginally train yourself to maintain a rate closer to your max, but there is very limited room for this. As fitness increases your stroke volume improves and or your muscles get more efficient, so you get more watts per heart beat.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    As FTP increases your watts per heart beat ratio improves.
    That would also depend on your heart rate...


    No amount of training will increase your max heart rate, in fact your max heart rate can decrease with training. You can marginally train yourself to maintain a rate closer to your max, but there is very limited room for this. As fitness increases your stroke volume improves and or your muscles get more efficient, so you get more watts per heart beat.
    Who said anything about max HR?
  • Team4Luke
    Team4Luke Posts: 597
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    As FTP increases your watts per heart beat ratio improves.
    That would also depend on your heart rate...


    No amount of training will increase your max heart rate, in fact your max heart rate can decrease with training. You can marginally train yourself to maintain a rate closer to your max, but there is very limited room for this. As fitness increases your stroke volume improves and or your muscles get more efficient, so you get more watts per heart beat.


    indeed correct, looking back at my files I used to race above 190bpm and now I am much faster and race in the 170bpm area, all about aerobic training in the right HR zone or if training with watts to ensure your in the correct HR zones for the areas you are targetting to train.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    As FTP increases your watts per heart beat ratio improves.
    That would also depend on your heart rate...


    No amount of training will increase your max heart rate, in fact your max heart rate can decrease with training. You can marginally train yourself to maintain a rate closer to your max, but there is very limited room for this. As fitness increases your stroke volume improves and or your muscles get more efficient, so you get more watts per heart beat.
    Who said anything about max HR?

    I have tried to explain how I use heart rate with power and I have quoted Dr Coggan's explanation of why the approach is valid. If you have anything constructive to say please do.

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