Bike sizing - Customer or bike shop's responsibility ?
josehernandez
Posts: 243
When buying from a bike shop who is responsible for ensuring the bike is the correct size, the customer or the bike shop ? :?:
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I would say it depends which bike shop you get it from to a degree, but generally its up to the customer to buy the right thing.
Bike shops seem to like selling road bikes that are too big.
A lot of people seem unwilling to change anything on a new bike to get it to fit so in a way I do not blame them.
Newbies buying bikes often want one that is too big and you cannot blame the shop if they feel dissuading them will lose a sale.0 -
Carbonator wrote:Newbies buying bikes often want one that is too big and you cannot blame the shop if they feel dissuading them will lose a sale.
Not sure I follow. The bike shop thinks it will lose a sale if it tells the customer what size will fit the customer best ? :?0 -
JoseHernandez wrote:Carbonator wrote:Newbies buying bikes often want one that is too big and you cannot blame the shop if they feel dissuading them will lose a sale.
Not sure I follow. The bike shop thinks it will lose a sale if it tells the customer what size will fit the customer best ? :?
The bike shop can recommend the right size but if the customer seems to still want the bigger one then there comes a point where the bike shop is better off just letting them buy it.
If they go on about the smaller frame too much the customer may feel intimidated and not buy either.0 -
JoseHernandez wrote:When buying from a bike shop who is responsible for ensuring the bike is the correct size, the customer or the bike shop ? :?:
When buying a chair from a furniture shop, who is responsible for ensuring that the upholstery will match your wallpaper?Red bikes are the fastest.0 -
As with any purchase the shop advises and the customer makes the decision either rightly or wrongly.0
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DiscoBoy wrote:JoseHernandez wrote:When buying from a bike shop who is responsible for ensuring the bike is the correct size, the customer or the bike shop ? :?:
When buying a chair from a furniture shop, who is responsible for ensuring that the upholstery will match your wallpaper?
The difference being DB - you buy the wrong chair you get some mismatching decor. Being sold or choosing the wrong size bike could result in serious injury and having to deal its affects for the rest of your life.0 -
Both are to an extent. If you give a bike shop clear guidelines and they don't meet them then they are at fault generally. If you have no idea what you want then it is more down to you. Bike fitting and setup is very hard to do for someone who is indecisive or has not idea what they want but this is part of the skills of sales.0
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A bike shop has no legal responsibility to sell you the "right" sized bike - whatever that is. Fashions change. I haven't changed size in the last 25 years (shape maybe, but that's another matter!) yet the size of bike that is "right" for me has. My first "proper" road bikes were 23 1/2" & 60cm. The 60cm one was a Peugeot racer, (Reynolds 753, Chorus) and had a 12cm stem as well. Now (at 5' 11") I'd probably be advised to ride a 58cm or 56cm frame with 10cm or 12cm stem. Another change is how low the fronts of bikes are - the Peugeot has bars maybe 4cm lower than the saddle, now a full-on race machine (which that was) could have 8cm or more drop. So, it's up to the buyer. And don't think the "right" one will be immediately comfortable - it won't. As to injury - if it hurts, stop, simple. An ill fitting bike is very unlikely to cause serious permanent physical damage just from riding it.0
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Likewise I'm 5'11 and one of my first bikes was a Raleigh Triathlon 25". That's the size the shop had. I wanted it. Way too big mind but I didn't know, as then there was a macho culture, you had a big bike cos you were a 'big' man. That was 26 years ago and I'm now on a 56. Not sure if this is relevant or not, nice nostalgic trip for me though.0
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I have no legal knowledge on this matter. Common sense suggests that ultimate responsibility rests with the customer. There is perhaps a sliding scale of responsibility depending on the extent to which advice is sought from the bike shop - one extreme being if you pay them £300 - £500 for a full technical bike fitting service. The other extreme would be where a customer walks into a shop and says I want that bike, seeks no advice, buys it and leaves the shop without even having it set up for them.
Even with the full bike fit, the shop staff are still reliant to a certain extent on the feedback they receive from the customer, albeit this should relate primarily to minor details of saddle position and stem length, not the actual frame size. Even after a full on bike fit, I've known people to later make minor adjustments to their bikes after being out for a couple of decent length rides.
Given the wide range of potential scenarios, perhaps you could expand on what problem you or your friend have encountered?
Peter0 -
Kind of what I was hinting at about it depending where you got it from.
A higher end bike shop with a bike fit should give you the biggest guarantee of the frame fitting you, even if the bike fit itself is cr4p.
That said it would have to be pretty obvious that the bike was too big and a lot of people probably 'fit' two frame sizes anyway.
Hopefully the bike in question is too small and can easily be adapted to fit.
If not it just has to be put down to experience.
I think a lot of newbies buy a bike and then their cycling friends tell them its too big.
Evans cycles has a 90 day return policy which would give complete peace of mind.0 -
Every frame out there has a different geometry, so either the customer knows their dimensions and the bike shop sells them a bike in their size, or they are measured and fitted correctly.
This can vary widely and down to the expertise of the bike fitter. Often a bike shop will sell a customer a bike either too small or too large, and unfortunately ignorance is bliss. So I would say 50-50.
My advice, if you know your dimensions, is to research a certain frame you like the look of, and make sure your desired size will fit you. If you do not know your dimensions, get a bike fit!!0 -
customer
anything the shop staff say is simply general advice, you can't reasonably expect anyone to be responsible for sizing without a proper assessment
if you were paying for a professional bike fit as part of the purchase, there'd be some liability, but even then there's room for variation depending on methodology, rider's stated obectives, flexibility etc.
e.g. for racing, some prefer a frame that'd be regarded as too small by a casual rider, and vice versa
as long as the saddle can be put in a good position wrt to the bb, the frame being, within reason, too large, too small, or just right, is more a matter of personal preference than sciencemy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
I'd like to think that a bike shop would be fairly responsible for sizing if the customer is new to cycling.0
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My first proper road bike was too big for me. I'm fairly sure the guy in the shop recommended it to me because I was inexperienced and he wanted rid of it.
That said, it was too long rather than too tall and so it took me a while (and a frequent backache and input from other riders) to realise that.
Consumer rights suggest that you can claim a refund if an item is not "fit for purpose", which might imply the shop has some responsibility to ensure they don't sell you something that will make riding painful or dangerous.0 -
Consumer rights lol. If he has no luck there he could go to the international court of human rights perhaps.0
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Bozman wrote:I'd like to think that a bike shop would be fairly responsible for sizing if the customer is new to cycling.
There are a wide range of bike shops, staff in bike shops and customers.
I think people need to give more thought to their bike purchase and not just expect all staff in all shops to be responsible for picking the best of the two sizes you fall in between. Both of which could well be considered to fit you.
We do not know anything about the OP's case so its difficult to say how out the sizing is and who was more wrong in its purchase, but generally it has to be up to the customer to ensure they are happy with the bike.0 -
Carbonator wrote:Bozman wrote:I'd like to think that a bike shop would be fairly responsible for sizing if the customer is new to cycling.
generally it has to be up to the customer to ensure they are happy with the bike.
If you're a first time buyer you could well be clueless.
I went along with my mate to J E James in Sheffield and the guy sizing my mate up had less of a clue than he did, if I hadn't been there my mate would have ended up with L Giant TCR instead of a M/L and he was between M and M/L. My mate was just standing there taking it all in because he knew no different, how many folk have been in that situation and ended up with the wrong sized frame.0 -
Loads of people will have the wrong sized (too big) frame but I don't think you can blame the bike shops 100%.
They are just giving advice and its ultimately up to the buyer to work out if its good advice or not.
Your mate took you along to help out but there are loads of other things he could have done to help in getting the best size.0 -
A lot of sportive style riders have a big that is 'too big' as they were trying to bring the stem up a bit in relation to saddle height to gain a more comfortable fit (a French fit).
My old work did Retuls and the number of bikes with headtubes that were too small for a majority of the people being fitted is pretty big. So either they get a Defy or a Cervelo or if they want something different a larger size and some jiggery pokery.0 -
I'm shocked at just how many replying to this thread seem to be absolving the shop from what I believe is its fundamental duty to supply customers with bikes that fit them. Surely this is supposed to be one of the main advantages in buying a bike from a LBS instead of online - bespoke personal service ?
If I owned a LBS and was in the habit of selling customers inappropriately sized bikes I'd be thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed. Come on....how difficult is it to check that a bike is the right size for someone ?
When I bought my second road bike from a LBS I chose a 56cm which was what the sizing chart recommended but with hindsight and following a number of injuries I suspect I should have went a size smaller. The sales assistant didn't say a thing about size and was more than happy just to take my inexperienced word for it. I don't think that's good enough.0 -
It is - you, the customer can go in and test ride the same frame in different sizes so you can feel the difference. If the LBS has a fitting service then they can help you interpret your feelings and advise you on their OPINION on what they think may be best.JoseHernandez wrote:I'm shocked at just how many replying to this thread seem to be absolving the shop from what I believe is its fundamental duty to supply customers with bikes that fit them. Surely this is supposed to be one of the main advantages in buying a bike from a LBS instead of online - bespoke personal service ?
That depends on several things - 1 the LBS owner knowing what they were talking about. 2 the owner wanting to spend the time to help the customer. 3 the customer being open minded to advise. 4 the customer being honest about their ability and flexibility. plus loads of things I haven't thought of.JoseHernandez wrote:If I owned a LBS and was in the habit of selling customers inappropriately sized bikes I'd be thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed. Come on....how difficult is it to check that a bike is the right size for someone ?
So you probably went in full of confidence, said which bike you wanted and walked away having purchased it. How does the SA know you're inexperienced?JoseHernandez wrote:When I bought my second road bike from a LBS I chose a 56cm which was what the sizing chart recommended but with hindsight and following a number of injuries I suspect I should have went a size smaller. The sales assistant didn't say a thing about size and was more than happy just to take my inexperienced word for it. I don't think that's good enough.
I bought a CX bike like that - I knew what size I was looking for as I had a road frame from the same manu. Went in, sat on the partially built bike, it felt ok ish so went ahead with the purchase.
Soon after I realised that the reach was too short, so put a longer stem on. I may have been able to do that in the shop had I been a little less "knowledgeable" and the shop being a little more on the ball.0 -
JoseHernandez wrote:I'm shocked at just how many replying to this thread seem to be absolving the shop from what I believe is its fundamental duty to supply customers with bikes that fit them. Surely this is supposed to be one of the main advantages in buying a bike from a LBS instead of online - bespoke personal service ?
If I owned a LBS and was in the habit of selling customers inappropriately sized bikes I'd be thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed. Come on....how difficult is it to check that a bike is the right size for someone ?
When I bought my second road bike from a LBS I chose a 56cm which was what the sizing chart recommended but with hindsight and following a number of injuries I suspect I should have went a size smaller. The sales assistant didn't say a thing about size and was more than happy just to take my inexperienced word for it. I don't think that's good enough.
What kind of injuries did having "too big" a bike cause?Commencal Meta 5.5.1
Scott CR10 -
I'm guessing that numerically, the majority of bikes are bought in Halfords and Evans. No disrespect to them, but how much reliance would you place on them sorting you out with the correct bike frame size let alone finer details like saddle position, stem length, handle bar width, etc? If the answer is very little, which would be my opinion, it's very difficult to identify which shops you should be relying on and, as others have said, ultimately the staff can only offer an opinion based on your general body shape and the information that you disclose to them.
Peter0 -
JoseHernandez wrote:
When I bought my second road bike from a LBS I chose a 56cm which was what the sizing chart recommended but with hindsight and following a number of injuries I suspect I should have went a size smaller. The sales assistant didn't say a thing about size and was more than happy just to take my inexperienced word for it. I don't think that's good enough.
Why are you inexperienced if its your second bike? You must have known if the first one fitted you and whether the new one was bigger when you test rode it.
What kind of shop was it? Chain, independent or high end?
You say that the sales assistant did not say anything about size. Does that mean you did not ask him anything about size either? He would have had to talk about size if you asked him about it.
Did you test ride the bike or even sit on it in the store?
How tall are you?
If the size chart says 56cm is right for you then I am guessing you are about the right height that the sales guy would not feel it was odd you were buying it.
Did you expect him to size you by just looking at you?
Did the sales guy ride road bikes? He may have been a mountain bike expert but never even been on a road bike.
Sounds like you just decided a 56cm was the correct size for you, walked into a store and bought one without asking them anything and then blame them for not interrogating you.
If you expect bike shops to be responsible for making sure you get the correct size bike, why did you buy a bike from one that did not mention sizing?0 -
Slowbike wrote:
It is - you, the customer can go in and test ride the same frame in different sizes so you can feel the difference. If the LBS has a fitting service then they can help you interpret your feelings and advise you on their OPINION on what they think may be best.JoseHernandez wrote:I'm shocked at just how many replying to this thread seem to be absolving the shop from what I believe is its fundamental duty to supply customers with bikes that fit them. Surely this is supposed to be one of the main advantages in buying a bike from a LBS instead of online - bespoke personal service ?
Not really. Yes, you may be able to try different sizes but unless you are test riding for a good number of miles (eg 10 - 20) you aren't really going to be able to judge fit properly and I doubt that many beginners do that.
Of course, it depends on the level of bike to a degree. If I came into a shop looking for a £500 bike and explained that I was a complete beginner, I would expect and ask the shop to provide me with what would generally be agreed to be a correctly sized frame. If they then said that they would sell me a frame but not take responsibility over the size, I would find another shop. If they agreed to my request, and the frame later turned out to be clearly the wrong size, I would expect them to replace it with one that was the correct size. I'm not talking here about folk who are between sizes and might later decide they would have preferred a smaller frame - this is about frames that are simply the wrong size.
If I was buying an expensive bike, I would expect frame, bars, cranks, stem, seatpost etc all to be correct for me and a proper fitting to be part of the deal.
Really I think it is down to what you agree with the shop prior to purchase. If you just walk in and say 'I'd like that bike' then you are clearly taking full responsibility for the fit.
As Jose says, if the shop won't take responsibility for providing a bike that fits, what's the point in using the LBS at all?Faster than a tent.......0 -
Carbonator wrote:
Why are you inexperienced if its your second bike? You must have known if the first one fitted you and whether the new one was bigger when you test rode it.
I bought my 1st bike on Ebay guessing that a 56cm would fit and had ongoing issues with back pain for the year I owned it. The sales assistant was fully aware of this.
I also told him that I had to change my 110cm stem for a 90cm.
What kind of shop was it? Chain, independent or high end?
The shop was an Independent. That is my point, when I purchased my 1st bike from Ebay and had to get any maintenance or repairs done at local bike shops they would say it was my own fault for buying online and if I had bought from a LBS I could be assured that I would receive superior service and everything would fit perfect.
You say that the sales assistant did not say anything about size. Does that mean you did not ask him anything about size either? He would have had to talk about size if you asked him about it.
I told him my other bike was a 56cm but I wasn't sure if that was right because of my back issues and having to reduce the size of the stem.
Did you test ride the bike or even sit on it in the store?
I sat on the bike on a turbo.
How tall are you?
5ft 11in.
If the size chart says 56cm is right for you then I am guessing you are about the right height that the sales guy would not feel it was odd you were buying it.
Did you expect him to size you by just looking at you?
I expected him to give me advice regarding what was the correct size bike for me by observing me on the turbo and from the info I had told him about my other bike issues.
Did the sales guy ride road bikes?
No idea, but he was selling them.
He may have been a mountain bike expert but never even been on a road bike.
Maybe.
Sounds like you just decided a 56cm was the correct size for you, walked into a store and bought one without asking them anything and then blame them for not interrogating you.
If you expect bike shops to be responsible for making sure you get the correct size bike, why did you buy a bike from one that did not mention sizing?
I don't think I'm completely innocent in this in that I should have asked more questions before I handed over the cash but I would imagine that often happens when you're excited about buying something new.
However that doesn't absolve the retailer from their fundamental duty of ensuring the customer gets the best possible customer service. On this occasion I don't believe the retailer fulfilled that duty.0 -
personally i think the underlying 'injury' was already there and the new bike only exasperated the issue.
I dont think the frame size of that particular model caused the long term issues. I would say the geometry style (race, sportive, H1, H2 etc etc) of that model didn't lend to your body make up.
You should have sat on many different make, model and fits knowing you have back issues.
You know your body and its limitations, the lbs does not. They are not medical professionals.0 -
You may be right Tom. I suppose the only way of finding out is trying a 54cm bike and seeing if the issues remain.0
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Rolf F wrote:Slowbike wrote:
It is - you, the customer can go in and test ride the same frame in different sizes so you can feel the difference. If the LBS has a fitting service then they can help you interpret your feelings and advise you on their OPINION on what they think may be best.JoseHernandez wrote:I'm shocked at just how many replying to this thread seem to be absolving the shop from what I believe is its fundamental duty to supply customers with bikes that fit them. Surely this is supposed to be one of the main advantages in buying a bike from a LBS instead of online - bespoke personal service ?
Not really. Yes, you may be able to try different sizes but unless you are test riding for a good number of miles (eg 10 - 20) you aren't really going to be able to judge fit properly and I doubt that many beginners do that.
Well - I went with my wife to look at getting her first road bike - we went to the LBS that had the brand she was after - she knew what she wanted, but did listen to the advice from the LBS. She tried different frame sizes and different models, gave feedback and even surprised the LBS with her flexibility. They advised her on where to concentrate on to evaluate the feel - being her first road bike she wasn't used to the reach or the drops, hence being able to get advise on what to look for was sensible.
Although he said he'd sell her whatever bike she asked for, his opinion on what suited differed to her desire.
Having weighed up what she wanted and what the LBS said she went with the LBS advice. Had she gone with her desire she'd've ended up with a racier frame that she wouldn't have felt comfortable on.
It is the right sized bike frame - a thorough bike fit may have tweaked the fit, but fits are not set in stone and they change as you develop as a rider.
Now she knows what a road bike feels like she can go in with a bit more confidence in selecting an appropriate bike with less expert advise.0
