Over-training for amateurs - Is it really a risk?

bahzob

One thing most training manuals cover is the risk of "over-training".

I just wondered, is this really a risk for the average amateur who has to combine riding with real life?

I do wonder/worry whether folk confuse the quite normal next day soreness that is a good sign that training is working with "over-training" and take things too easy in consequence, thereby wasting/not making best use of their already limited time.

Given the simple rule: "Take at least 2 full rest/recovery days per week" is it actually possible for an amateur rider to really over-train if they are also doing a full-time job and/or have family/other commitments ?

As opposed to simply sometimes being a bit stiff the day after a workout (which is a good thing) and/or too tired to finish a really tough workout (which is fine if it only happens once in while and preferable to doing sessions in a comfort zone)

kajjal

Overtraining leads to illness and injury for anyone really. Also if your bike is not setup correctly for you this makes it worse. Over the last few months I have been working abroad during the week and only riding at weekends. Coming home shattered and going out for hours at a time on the bike at the weekend meant I had to be careful not to over do it. After a four hour ride and a couple of beers I woke up with a rough hangover followed by manful. Two weeks later I am now back on the bike and feel fine but carefully building the riding time back up.

Just listen to your body, rest and eat well and enjoying the biking

JayKosta

'Over-Training' is a severe condition that requires extensive rest and recovery.
A less severe situation is called 'over-reaching' and results in needing more rest and recovery than is typical between exercise sessions.

Yes, an enthusiastic amateur certainly can achieve over-training or over-reaching by doing too much training.

It is critical to understand that actual improvement comes from the rest and recovery AFTER a training session. The training itself is the stimulus that causes stress - the body responds by becoming stronger to tolerate that stress.
So, best results are obtained by carefully balancing the amount of training and recovery.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

dw300

It's not the effect on the bits of your body that power the bike that are the problem. It's the colds, cold sores, mouth ulcers, infection and fatigue that stops you doing your job right that you need to worry about.

cougie

Definitely - I know I've done it. launching into lots of interval sessions on the turbo in the winter - I was pinging at the start of feb and blown by the end of it.

Barteos

From my experience even during +20h training weeks, sleep deprivation is a far bigger problem than overtraining.
Often one or two bad nights can be enough to compromise one's immune system.

buckles

Barteos wrote:

From my experience even during +20h training weeks, sleep deprivation is a far bigger problem than overtraining.
Often one or two bad nights can be enough to compromise one's immune system.

I'd say for most amateurs, it's not 'overtraining' but 'underrecovery' that's the problem.

However, when I was unable to even ride in low zone 2 for eight weeks this past summer I didn't give a sh*t what terminology someone would use to describe it - all I know is that it was one of the most miserable periods of my life. Having trained a maximum of five (but usually four) days a week, not doing back to back hard sessions and making more effort to go to bed at a reasonable time yet ending up one day finding the easiest gear difficult to turn over on the way into work (it's ever so slightly downhill all the way) was a killer. So yes, even if you "Take at least 2 full rest/recovery days per week" you can still end up bollocksed for a long time. What doesn't help is some smug git saying it's impossible for amateurs to overtrain...

fish156

Yes it's a real, if small, risk IMO.
The training induced stress level that one rider can comfortably sustain is however a very individual thing. What one rider can easily cope with, another may not.
Also it can't be considered in isolation. All stresses whether physical, mental, etc should be taken into account.

xavierdisley

Buckles wrote:

Barteos wrote:

From my experience even during +20h training weeks, sleep deprivation is a far bigger problem than overtraining.
Often one or two bad nights can be enough to compromise one's immune system.

I'd say for most amateurs, it's not 'overtraining' but 'underrecovery' that's the problem.

However, when I was unable to even ride in low zone 2 for eight weeks this past summer I didn't give a sh*t what terminology someone would use to describe it - all I know is that it was one of the most miserable periods of my life. Having trained a maximum of five (but usually four) days a week, not doing back to back hard sessions and making more effort to go to bed at a reasonable time yet ending up one day finding the easiest gear difficult to turn over on the way into work (it's ever so slightly downhill all the way) was a killer. So yes, even if you "Take at least 2 full rest/recovery days per week" you can still end up bollocksed for a long time. What doesn't help is some smug git saying it's impossible for amateurs to overtrain...

Even this isn't classified as OTS (overtraining syndrome) though, at least not in the clinical sense. OTS is nearly as bad as ME and is "quit the sport" bad rather than feeling horrendous on rides.

As you say though, you can definitely trash yourself even if you take rest days per week, there's more to it than that. I think there should be an article on overtraining up on the BikeRadar home page at some point, I provided some info for it a week or so ago

Xav

buckles

This is what I mean. It doesn't matter whether the feeling of being completely ruined on & off the bike for two months is classified as overtraining in the clinical sense or not. People are quick to point out that it's not overtraining, but how does doing so help anybody?

xavierdisley

It would help if "non functional overreaching" was a bit more catchy but it seems we're stuck with it ...

Xav

ut_och_cykla

Over training should in theory be possible for anybody at any level - as it is usually a combination of off the bike life pressures as well as all the efforts on a bike breaking down body and mind.

Newbies are most likely "protected" by the fact that when they are shattered they do actually rest but they can still over reach or over do things to an extent that they seriously doubt thier sanity and can no longer achieve much on the bike or off it.

I'm not sure I like the idea of people dismissing the idea that newbies or amateurs can overtrain - its a personal thing and if you think you or a mate is at risk - for goodness sake listen to your body and take it easy for a few days. If you were overtrained you'll need a long time to get back - if you "just" overreached you'll need a few days - and you wont know how bad you really are till you dare to rest a bit

Harrogate Velo50

Buckles is right. Anyone an overstating, I know I have, whilst trainline I g for the Fred, and never had a word ametuear been more apt than for me. I felt dreadful and hated going on the bike just before the event and I class myself just an enthusiast, who likes to keep fit. Not really sure recovered yet. I have also found the harder, or more I train, the more problems I have with sleep ( deprevation) which seems odd

imposter2.0

Harrogate Velo50 wrote:

Buckles is right. Anyone an overstating, I know I have, whilst trainline I g for the Fred, and never had a word ametuear been more apt than for me. I felt dreadful and hated going on the bike just before the event and I class myself just an enthusiast, who likes to keep fit. Not really sure recovered yet. I have also found the harder, or more I train, the more problems I have with sleep ( deprevation) which seems odd

and typing..

top_bhoy

What is meant by 'over-training'. I think it would be a useful first step to define the scope of the question. For instance, is it cycling for too long without sufficient recovery, or for too hard without sufficient recovery? What constitutes training? Is it all cycling, does it include a rapid 5 mile commute to work, the 15 mile pootle or only cycling over a certain heart rate/power output?

For those who have become ill, is it really caused by 'over training' and not as a result of other health issues? I speak from experience. A few years ago after nearly dying from altitude mountain sickness in Kenya, over a period of 6 months every time I put my body under the stress of light jogging and starting to lift light weights to start what I thought was a way back to fitness, I just couldn't. I was fine in every other way and could easily do everyday life things....just the light gym stuff knocked me out and it took 6 months to fully recover. Hence my highlighting of other underlying issues and worth getting checked out.

Harrogate Velo50

Correct imposter ha ha. It's my bloody kindle, half the time it doesn't recognise a word and I don't check ir

Maglia

Top_Bhoy wrote:

What is meant by 'over-training'. I think it would be a useful first step to define the scope of the question.

This...

bahzob

Interesting replies. I can't say I have ever experienced anything that I would call "overtraining" in the past despite some very heavy sessions. I have felt completely knackered following a hard tour or event but a couple of days rest has put this to right.

Could those that have said they experience it give an example of the sort of training regime they followed that caused it?

Also be interested in what the symptoms of "over-training" are, anybody know of a good objective test that measures something other than how you feel?

Harrogate Velo50

When your resting heart beat is a lot quicker than it should be, that is quite a good indicator

dw300

You cant overtrain from a weeks cycling.

It builds up over weeks and months. Progress stops, you feel unmotivated and it may start to affect other things in your life.

When youre out doing intervals, choose a hill that you attack once a week and if its been weeks since youve felt you could hit it with all youve got, or simple havent felt fresh in weeks, you could probably do with a rest. This is simplifying things, but its a good indicator.

bahzob

I'd still be interested in hearing of an actual training regime that caused demonstrable over-training for someone (as opposed to theory or what you think happens to other people).

I'm afraid I still struggle to see how someone doing a full time job and allocating 2 full days a week for rest and recovery can over-train. I guess the exceptions may be folks whose job requires a lot of physical effort but that's hardly typical nowadays.

So if you have actually ever over-trained please can you say how it happened, how you knew and what it's made you do differently.

Alex_Simmons/RST

madasahattersley wrote:

I'd disagree that overtraining is as bad as ME and should cause you to quit the sport.

Then perhaps you've never known or had to deal with athletes for whom this is a very real prospect or who have actually been through it. I've known many cycling careers ended way prematurely due to real overtraining administered by supervising idiots.

Alex_Simmons/RST

bahzob wrote:

I'm afraid I still struggle to see how someone doing a full time job and allocating 2 full days a week for rest and recovery can over-train. I guess the exceptions may be folks whose job requires a lot of physical effort but that's hardly typical nowadays.

I've seen it but am not about to share other people's training. Such levels of chronic underperformance and psychologically degrading fatigue are multifactoral and their training is but one element in a complex equation. It would be foolish to consider just the training per se in isolation from all the other factors.

IOW it can and does happen, albeit not often fortunately for athletes in the class you are referring, and it's usually due to a combination of factors of which training is only one part of the stress.

xavierdisley

madasahattersley wrote:

"Overtraining is a physical, behavioral, and emotional condition that occurs when the volume and intensity of an individual's exercise exceeds their recovery capacity. They cease making progress, and can even begin to lose strength and fitness."

I'd disagree that overtraining is as bad as ME and should cause you to quit the sport. I know some 2nd cats who (when they can) do consistent back to back long rides of 3-6 hours, then do the same again continuously with no rest. They're the ones who often finish at the back of the field of a regional race, as despite 20-25 hour training weeks they never allow adaptation to the training load through recovery, so just end up fatigued all the time.

The above is an incorrect definition, what you've described is non functional overreaching.

As Alex mentions, it's multifactorial and much in the same way that ME is often triggered by disease, OTS occurs in conjunction with external stressors apart from just simply physical exertion (eg mental stress). To clinically diagnose OTS you have to exclude ALL other possibilities, such as illness and underlying disease symptoms.

Xav

xavierdisley

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... =BRGENHOME

Xav

Max Bridges

xavierdisley wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

"Overtraining is a physical, behavioral, and emotional condition that occurs when the volume and intensity of an individual's exercise exceeds their recovery capacity. They cease making progress, and can even begin to lose strength and fitness."

I'd disagree that overtraining is as bad as ME and should cause you to quit the sport. I know some 2nd cats who (when they can) do consistent back to back long rides of 3-6 hours, then do the same again continuously with no rest. They're the ones who often finish at the back of the field of a regional race, as despite 20-25 hour training weeks they never allow adaptation to the training load through recovery, so just end up fatigued all the time.

The above is an incorrect definition, what you've described is non functional overreaching.

As Alex mentions, it's multifactorial and much in the same way that ME is often triggered by disease, OTS occurs in conjunction with external stressors apart from just simply physical exertion (eg mental stress). To clinically diagnose OTS you have to exclude ALL other possibilities, such as illness and underlying disease symptoms.

Xav

Thought it was overtraining if physical emotional and behavioural and non functional over reaching if only physical?

dennisn

Buckles wrote:

Barteos wrote:

From my experience even during +20h training weeks, sleep deprivation is a far bigger problem than overtraining.
Often one or two bad nights can be enough to compromise one's immune system.

I'd say for most amateurs, it's not 'overtraining' but 'underrecovery' that's the problem.

I would have to agree wholeheartedly with that statement. In reading various posts, on this forum, about training I very rarely, if ever, see anyone mention rest. It's all "How many miles should I do?" "How hard should I go and how many times a week should I do it?". Stuff like that. Hardly even a mention of the word "rest". All about hammer time. :?

Alex_Simmons/RST

madasahattersley wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

I'd disagree that overtraining is as bad as ME and should cause you to quit the sport.

Then perhaps you've never known or had to deal with athletes for whom this is a very real prospect or who have actually been through it. I've known many cycling careers ended way prematurely due to real overtraining administered by supervising idiots.

Well perhaps you've never known anyone with ME? Try being in bed for 10 months and only being awake for 2 hours a day.

Non sequitur. I never said ME w/couldn't do such things, rather I suggested that (real) overtraining could.

wallace_and_gromit

bahzob wrote:

I'm afraid I still struggle to see how someone doing a full time job and allocating 2 full days a week for rest and recovery can over-train.

I may be a bit "old school" but I've always thought of "over training" as "under recovery".

If you have two full days rest per week then over-training is unlikely for an amateur with a job. It's what happens when you ditch one or more of the rest days in search of greater commitment / more training that causes problems.

ozzzyosborn206

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

bahzob wrote:

I'm afraid I still struggle to see how someone doing a full time job and allocating 2 full days a week for rest and recovery can over-train.

I may be a bit "old school" but I've always thought of "over training" as "under recovery".

If you have two full days rest per week then over-training is unlikely for an amateur with a job. It's what happens when you ditch one or more of the rest days in search of greater commitment / more training that causes problems.

Why does having a job make it less likely? surely it makes it more likely as it gives an added stress/demand on your body and so therefore more likely to reduce your recovery as opposed to if you were cycling full time you have have all the rest you could ask for

wallace_and_gromit

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

bahzob wrote:

I'm afraid I still struggle to see how someone doing a full time job and allocating 2 full days a week for rest and recovery can over-train.

I may be a bit "old school" but I've always thought of "over training" as "under recovery".

If you have two full days rest per week then over-training is unlikely for an amateur with a job. It's what happens when you ditch one or more of the rest days in search of greater commitment / more training that causes problems.

Why does having a job make it less likely? surely it makes it more likely as it gives an added stress/demand on your body and so therefore more likely to reduce your recovery as opposed to if you were cycling full time you have have all the rest you could ask for

Maybe I should have said that over-training is unlikely if you have two rest days each week even if you have a job. I agree that non-training related stresses all accumulate to grind you down, so that the more such stresses you have, the less training it takes to tip you over the edge.