calculating FTP from MMP

carrock

Quick question- bought a wattbike to get fit over winter

Would like to get a feeling for my threshold power without flogging myself for an hour on the wattbike

Have calculated my average power over 3 minutes is 274w, which I understand is MMP.

Have heard other reports that MMP should be taken from the last minute of a 3 minute effort rather than average over the 3 minutes??

Is there a formula for calculating FTP from MMP- ie 80% or whatever?

Just need to get a simple training plan together, and appreciate a few brief words of advice rather than someone trying to flog me a coaching plan.

Is best way to define training zones using a %age of FTP or MMP or what??

Grill

So just do a 20 minute test...

A 3 minute test is going to tell you sweet FA about your actual power.

carrock

Fair point.

Wattbike base their training zones on % of MMP, however

ric/rstsport

The second table here http://www.rstsport.com/event-training- ... -zones.htm will give you zones based on MAP (incremental test to exhaustion, using a 25 W/min ramp rate for you). These zones (as you'd expect) are highly correlated to the FTP zones.

Ric

carrock

Grill wrote:

So just do a 20 minute test...

A 3 minute test is going to tell you sweet FA about your actual power.

Well I just knocked out average of 198w for 20 minutes without breathing too heavily ( but sweating buckets )

Heart rate was 140 by the end- should it be much higher ( my max HR on a bike was about 158-160

carrock

Grill wrote:

So just do a 20 minute test...

A 3 minute test is going to tell you sweet FA about your actual power.

Did 20 mins at 197w avge. Only 140 heart rate and not gasping for breath but sweating like a pig. Perhaps should have gone harder

okgo

I did 20 min test on turbo once I nearly fainted when done. I slumped over the handle bars for about 3 mins to recover. Try harder.

Grill

carrock wrote:

Grill wrote:

So just do a 20 minute test...

A 3 minute test is going to tell you sweet FA about your actual power.

Did 20 mins at 197w avge. Only 140 heart rate and not gasping for breath but sweating like a pig. Perhaps should have gone harder

A proper power test requires a bucket...

carrock

OK point taken. will try again aiming for 215w average. don't want to start off too hard and fade after 10 mins

marcusjb

carrock wrote:

OK point taken. will try again aiming for 215w average. don't want to start off too hard and fade after 10 mins

If you aim for 215, then you don't need to take the test - the result will be 215 (if you can maintain that).

As others have said, this is a stress test where you are going to want to curl up and die at the end.

I am surprised that no-one has yet mentioned the book - if you don't have it, then buy and digest training and racing with a power meter by Allen and Coggan.

Tom Dean

marcusjb wrote:

carrock wrote:

OK point taken. will try again aiming for 215w average. don't want to start off too hard and fade after 10 mins

If you aim for 215, then you don't need to take the test - the result will be 215 (if you can maintain that).

The part in brackets is actually quite important...

But yes buy T&RWAPM

When you have no reference points from racing or previous tests you have to learn to pace it by trial and error. If you keep repeating the test a little bit harder you will find your limit.

I would expect to average at least 90% of max HR if that's helpful

okgo

The best way is to have two things on the screen - time and HR that way you know you're giving it everything (keep as close to mac as you can) and you know how long you have. I wouldn't have power displayed as it just tricks you into working at a rate different to max. Look at the power when the test is done. P

To get an accurate figure you do have to do the 5 min full on effort before the 20 otherwise 95% of 20 min power is likely to bean overestimate. Or as Ric said above, do a ramp test, takes less time and is probably more accurate.

carrock

Grill wrote:

carrock wrote:

Grill wrote:

So just do a 20 minute test...

A 3 minute test is going to tell you sweet FA about your actual power.

Did 20 mins at 197w avge. Only 140 heart rate and not gasping for breath but sweating like a pig. Perhaps should have gone harder

A proper power test requires a bucket...

OK. will wear an adult nappy as well in case I soil myself with effort.....

gavt0333

assume you have a fan btw...

carrock

No don't have a fan But don't have central heating and strip layers off when warmed up so end up just wearing shorts

Tom Dean

You will need a fan (a big one)

gbr236

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

The second table here http://www.rstsport.com/event-training- ... -zones.htm will give you zones based on MAP (incremental test to exhaustion, using a 25 W/min ramp rate for you). These zones (as you'd expect) are highly correlated to the FTP zones.

Ric

Thanks Ric
Ive got similar but want to use trainer road....they need my ftp to guide efforts?

carrock

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

The second table here http://www.rstsport.com/event-training- ... -zones.htm will give you zones based on MAP (incremental test to exhaustion, using a 25 W/min ramp rate for you). These zones (as you'd expect) are highly correlated to the FTP zones.

Ric

Excellent thanks. I assume my MAP power is the same as my MMP, ie 274w for the 3 minute average?

ric/rstsport

No, your MAP is the best 60-secs power of an incremental test to exhaustion. For non-elite males we use a 25 W/min increment rate, starting at about 100 W. You should try to break down the increments into smaller, more manageable chunks (i'd use 5 W every 12-secs) so that your power looks like a smooth(ish) slope.

for most people (this covers a wide range of people from starting out to elite world champions) their FTP will fall in the range of 72 to 77% of MAP. There are some people outside this range.

Ric

davidof

Heart Rate of 140, you must be a reptile.

I was up to 196bpm on a workout on Thursday

http://www.strava.com/activities/99833367

carrock

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

No, your MAP is the best 60-secs power of an incremental test to exhaustion. For non-elite males we use a 25 W/min increment rate, starting at about 100 W. You should try to break down the increments into smaller, more manageable chunks (i'd use 5 W every 12-secs) so that your power looks like a smooth(ish) slope.

for most people (this covers a wide range of people from starting out to elite world champions) their FTP will fall in the range of 72 to 77% of MAP. There are some people outside this range.

Ric

Ok so the best one minute output on a ramp test. I started at 120w and topped out at around 250 260ish

carrock

davidof wrote:

Heart Rate of 140, you must be a reptile.

I was up to 196bpm on a workout on Thursday

http://www.strava.com/activities/99833367

Good for you but every body is different. I have reached point of exhaustion doing hill sprints and couldn't get over 158bpm. Even hammering up Honister Pass was only 150

Chris Froome max Hr is 165 apparently.

My resting Hr is 70ish and typically in the range 100 to 140 when cycling

davidof

I'll check you out next time you pace Chris up the first part of a climb.

Seriously, double check your heart rate strap is positioned correctly and your HRM is working properly. However you have already said that your max HR is 158bpm so you should be getting somewhere near this in testing.

carrock

davidof wrote:

I'll check you out next time you pace Chris up the first part of a climb.

Seriously, double check your heart rate strap is positioned correctly and your HRM is working properly. However you have already said that your max HR is 158bpm so you should be getting somewhere near this in testing.

Yes. Typically start off at about 72bpm on the bike and hr climbs from there. I am 46 so my peak hr wouldn't be the same as when 21 and my max HR when doing compound fast weightlifting in BodyPump feels higher than when cycling due to greater muscle recruitment.

okgo

Also many people cannot get HR near max on turbo. Quite common.

I've averaged within 10bpm of my max for an hour TT on the road.

charlie_potatoes

davidof wrote:

Heart Rate of 140, you must be a reptile.

I was up to 196bpm on a workout on Thursday

http://www.strava.com/activities/99833367

Heart rate of 196, you must be a Hamster.

dw300

WTF is going on in this thread ..

davidof

okgo wrote:

Also many people cannot get HR near max on turbo. Quite common.

I've averaged within 10bpm of my max for an hour TT on the road.

FTHR, in other words.

Lets go back to the OP, He wants to do a FTP test. He doesn't know his FTP, obviously, but has an idea of his max heart rate. So in his 20 minute effort that gives him an idea of how close he is to his maximum output. It is just a starting point.

ric/rstsport

carrock wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

No, your MAP is the best 60-secs power of an incremental test to exhaustion. For non-elite males we use a 25 W/min increment rate, starting at about 100 W. You should try to break down the increments into smaller, more manageable chunks (i'd use 5 W every 12-secs) so that your power looks like a smooth(ish) slope.

for most people (this covers a wide range of people from starting out to elite world champions) their FTP will fall in the range of 72 to 77% of MAP. There are some people outside this range.

Ric

Ok so the best one minute output on a ramp test. I started at 120w and topped out at around 250 260ish

how much do you weigh? and what sort of cycling do you do?

if you're topping out at 260, there's possibly something not right, as you managed 278 W (i think you said) for 3 minutes, and about 99% of people can manage more for the best 60-secs of an incremental test versus a 3min TT.

That said, even if you are topping out at 260 W, you're starting at too high an intensity (120 W), the test should take at least 10mins so you should be starting at Zero Watts

Ric

davidof

That said, even if you are topping out at 260 W, you're starting at too high an intensity (120 W), the test should take at least 10mins so you should be starting at Zero Watts

80 watts (278w, round down to 260, count back ten stages at 20W/stage) or around 25-40w for 25W stage. He might be better warming up for 5 minutes at 100w then starting his ramps from there.

carrock

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

carrock wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

No, your MAP is the best 60-secs power of an incremental test to exhaustion. For non-elite males we use a 25 W/min increment rate, starting at about 100 W. You should try to break down the increments into smaller, more manageable chunks (i'd use 5 W every 12-secs) so that your power looks like a smooth(ish) slope.

for most people (this covers a wide range of people from starting out to elite world champions) their FTP will fall in the range of 72 to 77% of MAP. There are some people outside this range.

Ric

Ok so the best one minute output on a ramp test. I started at 120w and topped out at around 250 260ish

how much do you weigh? and what sort of cycling do you do?

if you're topping out at 260, there's possibly something not right, as you managed 278 W (i think you said) for 3 minutes, and about 99% of people can manage more for the best 60-secs of an incremental test versus a 3min TT.

That said, even if you are topping out at 260 W, you're starting at too high an intensity (120 W), the test should take at least 10mins so you should be starting at Zero Watts

Ric

I weigh 16 stone. 12 stone of which is muscle and bone so about 3 stone of excess fat

I average 274w over 3 minutes after a 10 minute warm up.

I also averaged 198w over 20 minutes, again after a 10 minute warm up

Then I did a ramp test after a warm up, starting at 120W and ramping up by 20w every 2 minutes. The ramp test took about 8 minutes, but I just couldn't get any higher than 260w. I didn't change the input load I just increased my cadence from about 60 rpm to about 95rpm so perhaps keeping a constant cadence and increasing the input load would be required.

each of these tests was done on separate evenings

I also do body pump at the gym which involves lots of squats and lunges with weights so sometimes its not cardiovascular system that is the limiting point, its tired legs.