Is This Bike The Worst Buy In Britain.

rockmonkeysc

The Trance 4 is £300 cheaper and definitely much better spec than the Camber.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The Trance 4 is £300 cheaper and definitely much better spec than the Camber.

The Camber has a much nicer looking frame than the Trance (by a mile) so, given that everything else on a bike is a movable feast, maybe that counts for something.

rockmonkeysc

Does the aesthetics of a frame really make it worth paying £500 too much.
The looks are a bit of a subjective thing as well, I prefer the looks of the Giant and after owning four Giant frames I know their frames are always very nicely finished and well made.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Does the aesthetics of a frame really make it worth paying £500 too much.
The looks are a bit of a subjective thing as well, I prefer the looks of the Giant and after owning four Giant frames I know their frames are always very nicely finished and well made.

Ah, no, when I said "nicer looking" I meant a 'better' looking frame (as in, a better frame). Though, admittedly, that's based on nothing more than the look of the things and nothing empirical.

njee20

The Trance 4 is £300 cheaper and definitely much better spec than the Camber.

Only £200 innit? £1300 vs £1500.

Does the aesthetics of a frame really make it worth paying £500 too much.

It's getting even more expensive! Or is the Trance £300 overpriced as well?

They're both similar transmissions, own brand wheels and finishing kit, fork on the Giant yes, but it's not really any different to what Cannondale and Klein did for years - charging more for lesser specced bikes.

rockmonkeysc

Yes, it is only £200. My mistake.
The Giant does have a much better fork than the Specialized so is probably worth a bit more. Both are over priced.

I what way does the Specialized frame look like it will work better? Giant's Meastro rear suspension is more efficient than FSR and both have reasonable geometry.

njee20

Now you (and Angus) are just getting into personal preferences. By what measure is Maestro 'more efficient'? They're both just different. Giant bikes haven't won too many top level XC races (where efficiency prevails), whilst FSRs have World Cups, World Champs and Olympic titles under multiple riders.

They're both very good frames. People will buy both, ergo they're not overpriced. They may not represent supreme value in your opinion, but they're worth what folk will pay.

supersonic

By measure of anti squat. But with shock technology and lockouts this is less pronounced these days.

Angus Young

njee20 wrote:

Now you (and Angus) are just getting into personal preferences.

No particular preference on my part it just, on the face of it at least, looks like a more modern design. There's every chance I'm wrong about that, though.

rockmonkeysc

FSR is a very old design

supersonic

As is the short link four bar, was done before fsr!!!

Chunkers1980

And old doesn't mean bad for all uses. Sorry to get a bit Kowalski on you, lol, but look at leaf spring suspension on cars, still used today with good reason.

Angus Young

Chunkers1980 wrote:

And old doesn't mean bad for all uses. Sorry to get a bit Kowalski on you, lol, but look at leaf spring suspension on cars, still used today with good reason.

Which cars use leaf spring?

Chunkers1980

When I said cars, I was meaning some cars, but was really thinking about 4+ wheeled vehicles.

rockmonkeysc

Angus Young wrote:

Chunkers1980 wrote:

And old doesn't mean bad for all uses. Sorry to get a bit Kowalski on you, lol, but look at leaf spring suspension on cars, still used today with good reason.

Which cars use leaf spring?

Sh1t American cars

lawman

Angus Young wrote:

Chunkers1980 wrote:

And old doesn't mean bad for all uses. Sorry to get a bit Kowalski on you, lol, but look at leaf spring suspension on cars, still used today with good reason.

Which cars use leaf spring?

The last generation C6 Corvette used leaf springs - http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/brake ... -vs-leafs/

FWIW, the Corvette is apparently a very, very good drivers car

Angus Young

Chunkers1980 wrote:

When I said cars, I was meaning some cars, but was really thinking about 4+ wheeled vehicles.

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Sh1t American cars

So, not cars that handle well, then.

Though I do agree, 'old' doesn't mean bad and didn't mean to suggest that.

97th choice

lawman wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

Chunkers1980 wrote:

And old doesn't mean bad for all uses. Sorry to get a bit Kowalski on you, lol, but look at leaf spring suspension on cars, still used today with good reason.

Which cars use leaf spring?

The last generation C6 Corvette used leaf springs - http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/brake ... -vs-leafs/

FWIW, the Corvette is apparently a very, very good drivers car

That's an excellent bit of selective googling!!! the exception doesnt prove the rule!

rockmonkeysc

Leaf springs also mean live axles so no independent rear suspension. Part of the reason why muscle cars only go around corners sideways.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Leaf springs also mean live axles so no independent rear suspension. Part of the reason why muscle cars only go around corners sideways.

The latest Vette is no slouch. They're not nearly as bad as they used to be.

rockmonkeysc

It is very fast but any European sports car manufacturer would have got a lot more power from an engine that big.
The problem with crude suspension is that its unpredictable. Loads of grip in a nice smooth corner but one bump and you end up going backwards in a huge fireball. There's also a very fine line between grip and crash.
Nearly all manufacturers still using leaf springs and live axles are in America, a country with only three corners in it's entire road network and a 55mph speed limit enforced with armed cops. Even their race tracks have the absolute minimum number of corners and they all go the same way.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

It is very fast but any European sports car manufacturer would have got a lot more power from an engine that big.
The problem with crude suspension is that its unpredictable. Loads of grip in a nice smooth corner but one bump and you end up going backwards in a huge fireball. There's also a very fine line between grip and crash.
Nearly all manufacturers still using leaf springs and live axles are in America, a country with only three corners in it's entire road network and a 55mph speed limit enforced with armed cops. Even their race tracks have the absolute minimum number of corners and they all go the same way.

Check out some of the recent group tests. As I said, not nearly as bad as they used to be. Not my cup of tea, but certainly more capable than I would have thought.

lawman

RockmonkeySC wrote:

It is very fast but any European sports car manufacturer would have got a lot more power from an engine that big.
The problem with crude suspension is that its unpredictable. Loads of grip in a nice smooth corner but one bump and you end up going backwards in a huge fireball. There's also a very fine line between grip and crash.
Nearly all manufacturers still using leaf springs and live axles are in America, a country with only three corners in it's entire road network and a 55mph speed limit enforced with armed cops. Even their race tracks have the absolute minimum number of corners and they all go the same way.

You're a big fan of enormously sweeping statements aren't you! Even complicated suspension can be unpredictable, the Porsche Carrera GT is a notoriously awkward car to drive, the Mclaren F1 is a bitch to drive and have you seen how tail happy most AMG Merc's are these days? The last generation Corvette Z06 was a very good car, and the ZR1 even more so. As for race tracks, have you been to, or seen Laguna Seca? That is any thing but an oval, the corkscrew is arguably the most challenging corner of any track in the world, and the rest of the track ain't bad either. For all the shit the yanks come out with, they've done some bloody good stuff over the years! Their motor industry as held up a darn sight better than ours!

rockmonkeysc

Corvettes are at least good value. Terrible quality finish though, really nasty plastics.
Mercs are a bit tail happy, mostly because of the enormoud torque from their huge supercharged engines.
Since you're comparing muscle cars and Mercs, my manager has a Merc CLS320 diesel and a 2009 Mustang GT. They are both limited to 155mph but the diesel merc gets there quicker, handles better and uses less than half the fuel.
Laguna Seca is a great track, I remember Rossi and Stoner fighting around there. Best race I have ever watched.

The Northern Monkey

A corvette is made out of nasty plastic..

supersonic

The Corvette is built to a low price point - it tries to make the most of what is available.

supersonic

Anyway, back to the value and frames. The frames are both quality. For what are 'entry' level bikes, both sport lightweight frames with extensive tube forming, great bearings, built in the best factories in the world. Sure, the suspension is different, but that is just preference.

However, for £1500 the giant Trance 3 has better parts. Far superior fork for a start, and higher grade stuff throughout really. I'm actually shocked how cheap it is for a 2014 650B bike from a premium manufacturer.

kajjal

The other thing is often at that price point people want to customise the bikes to their needs by upgrading parts as they go along. This is especially true for road bikes. My Carve is the first bike which except for the inner tubes is as I bought it. My previous MTB had numerous upgrades and changes over the years.

Northwind

I can't speak for the 29er version but I had a 26er Camber Pro, it was a bag of shit. Apologies if the person who bought this off me is reading! It had expensive but shit Fox forks, expensive but shit Avid brakes, expensive but not particularily light carbon cranks attached to a shit truvativ BB, an XTR rear mech made compeltely pointless by SLX shifters, all wrapped around a shit frame.

So this is probably great value.

rockmonkeysc

People do like to upgrade bikes but it's nice to have parts you can sell to help fund upgrades. None of the components on that Camber are going to raise much money.
It needs a good £500 just to sort out a decent fork and shock plus £250 ish for a groupset and £100 for brakes so by the time you have sorted wheels and tyres as well it's cost you a heap of cash and if you had that to spend to start with would you choose a Camber?