Increasing muscle mass in calorie deficit?

seanoconn

I'm trying to lower my body fat and at least maintain my current muscle mass but preferably increase. I train 4 or 5 times a week, weights and cardio and am fairly happy with the progress. At 6ft and 12stone my concern is lowering the body fat will leave me with a skinny appearance. I would like to avoid having to bulk up first and then slim down. I eat a fairly well balance diet (occasional slips)

I've lost 7 pounds in 2 and a half months. If I keep up the intensity of my training will the body fat take care of its self or am I approaching this all wrong? Should I up my calories, follow a strict diet and increase my training?

Any advice welcome.

imposter2.0

Not clear - is this in relation to cycling, or is this purely a weight training question?

seanoconn

Cycling is part of the training but the goal isn't to improve cycling performance.

seanoconn

More calories and more weights?

tilt

Body recomp (adding lean mass, reducing bodyfat) is difficult. Easier for people new to training though, how long have you been doing weights?

Best bet is to calorie/carb cycle - i.e. more on weights days, less on other days. Ensure you're eating clean, with plenty of protein and healthy fats. Cut sugar and alcohol as much as possible. Eat the bulk of your calories around training sessions and stick to compound, full body lifts when doing weights. Deadlifts, power cleans, snatches, heavy kettlebell swings, push presses etc. Obviously squats are one of the best moves but I find it impinges on my cycling too much so tend to stick with deadlifts.

At 6ft and 12 stone I wouldnt have thought you have too much fat to worry about, if you do then (no offense) you don't have a lot of lean mass. I'd be more concerned about gaining muscle (that in itself will help burn more calories as your resting metabolic rate will increase).

mpatts

All my triathlete mates seem to get the 'look' balance right (I guess its the swimming - tends to encourage broad shoulders). I, however, have the upper body of a ten year old boy, so I'll be watching this thread with interest.

seanoconn

tilt wrote:

Body recomp (adding lean mass, reducing bodyfat) is difficult. Easier for people new to training though, how long have you been doing weights?

Best bet is to calorie/carb cycle - i.e. more on weights days, less on other days. Ensure you're eating clean, with plenty of protein and healthy fats. Cut sugar and alcohol as much as possible. Eat the bulk of your calories around training sessions and stick to compound, full body lifts when doing weights. Deadlifts, power cleans, snatches, heavy kettlebell swings, push presses etc. Obviously squats are one of the best moves but I find it impinges on my cycling too much so tend to stick with deadlifts.

At 6ft and 12 stone I wouldnt have thought you have too much fat to worry about, if you do then (no offense) you don't have a lot of lean mass. I'd be more concerned about gaining muscle (that in itself will help burn more calories as your resting metabolic rate will increase).

Thanks tilt. I've only been using weights for 3months with proper intensity. I'm not spending too much time on the bench and try to involve as many muscle groups as possible.

I don't have much fat to lose but am trying to lower body fat for more definition. I'm a little bit green about how much protein and carbs I should be eating.

tilt

Tough one - everyone seems to have different opinions on protein vs carbs etc. It'll vary from person to person as well. A decent aim is to try and get around 30g of protein per meal and see how you get on.

Amount of carbs is a bit more difficult. General approach is to gradually increase them and keep track of your body fat - once it starts increasing, back off a bit and that should be your optimum amount for muscle growth without too much fat gain. It's all trial and error really. How much cycling you do will have a big effect.

Oh and bench presses are fine, they'll hit your delts/chest/triceps and are a classic measure of strength. I'd just stear clear of isolation moves (curls etc.) as you don't need them if you're doing compound stuff.

seanoconn

Very helpful thank you.

I am bench pressing, sorry I meant I'm not sitting on a bench when I'm working shoulders etc, to active my core and a few other muscles involved.

team47b

Alcohol increases insulin sensitivity, predisposing carbs ingested with alcohol to be converted to fat.

Alcohol inhibits fat burning, predisposing fat ingested with alcohol to also be stored as fat.

Cheers!

JayKosta

Yes you can lose fat and gain muscle mass at the same time.
Muscle growth results from the stress of exercise and the recovery that follows.
Loss of body fat occurs when your consume less calories than you use.

Do be careful with your diet and eating habits - junk food and 'pleasure eating' will usually increase unnecessary calories. Having a low fat serving of protein and carbs after an exercise session is good to fuel muscle growth and replenish glycogen. Low fat chocolate milk has a good mix of protein & carbs. I use whey protein concentrate powder because it is convenient for me and not expensive.

Also, feeling hungry DOESN'T mean that you need to eat - it means that you are burning fat at that time. As long as you eat a reasonable diet during the day, extreme hunger shouldn't be a problem.

I don't use weights, but do push-ups, pull-ups, and chin-ups for upper body conditioning. I also do quite a bit of stretching of the upper body muscles to prevent soreness and for recovery.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

carrock

I would start by working out how many grams of protein you need per day- probably about 1g per pound of lean bodymass.

so assume around 150g protein, which will be at least 600 cals- probably more unless low fat. then divide this up into 4 small meals as the body can only process about 50 g of protein at once.

Then add in complex carbs and veg to take you to just below your daily maintenance limit.

Do a bit of cardio but concentrate on working out with weights at least 3 times per week.

You should then be able to slightly increase your muscle mass whilst reducing bodyfat.

If you avoid alcohol and junk food and push yourself in the gym, it WILL work. You may gain a few pounds of muscle over 3 months and drop a stone of fat.

It will be hard.
do a few bodypump or kettlebell classes which give you a good cardio workout and really push you

no tricks just hard work and a good diet.

you can train as long and hard as you like but if your diet is rubbish your results will be.

equally just lazing around in the gym whilst following a good diet is a waste of time- you will end up as "skinny fat"- no muscle and reduced fat

see here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -body.html

michaelede

Lean gains is all you need:

http://www.leangains.com/

Calculator to work out macro's:

http://sareyko.net/leancalc/#/g=male/a= ... =2.5/e=NaN

Hope that helps

seanoconn

Thanks for all the great advice

matudavey

I think Leangains is excellent from my experience, took a lot of the pfaff out of a recomposition diet.
Learning not to be afraid of hunger is a useful lesson!

michaelede wrote:

Lean gains is all you need:

http://www.leangains.com/

Calculator to work out macro's:

http://sareyko.net/leancalc/#/g=male/a= ... =2.5/e=NaN

Hope that helps

Camcycle1974

Here, here. Lean gains is the way forward. De-bunks all the bro-science and offers a solution for gaining muscle whilst minimising fat gain. luke, you can have low bf and be muscular, like bale is in the second picture. Martin berkhan the founder of LG is 85kg and 5.5% bf. Not ideal for a cyclist but that's not relevant to this thread.

olake92

If you want to gain muscle mass, you'll need to be in a calorie surplus. If you want to lose weight, you need a calorie deficit; find out your calorie needs to maintain your weight and you can go from there. Carrock is pointing you in the right direction. Bear in mind that you can reduce your body fat percentage simply by putting on muscle. If you maintain a constant body weight but increase your lean muscle mass by 5kg, your bf% will decrease. It really depends on if you need to be lightweight or not. You'd probably be better off scanning bodybuilding.com than a cycling forum if you just want to increase muscle mass regardless of any other parameters.

dw300

You don't need to be in a calorie surplus to get stronger though. And aiming for strength yields power better than aiming to gain mass.

olake92

dw300 wrote:

You don't need to be in a calorie surplus to get stronger though. And aiming for strength yields power better than aiming to gain mass.

Both those points are true. I'd particularly agree with, and emphasise, the second point that training for strength is a better idea than training for mass.

tilt

olake92 wrote:

training for strength is a better idea than training for mass.

Not if your goal is speficially to increase muscle mass (as per the thread title).

Camcycle1974

Why should the two things be mutually exclusive? When I train for strength (in the 5 or less rep range) I seem to put on a fair bit of mass. The accepted wisdom is 8-12 reps for hypertrophy to occur but the majority of beginners who do 5x5 for example in a full body work out would put on plenty of mass.

olake92

tilt wrote:

Not if your goal is specifically to increase muscle mass (as per the thread title).

That is true, my apologies. Got a bit carried away :P

NeXXus

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Why should the two things be mutually exclusive? When I train for strength (in the 5 or less rep range) I seem to put on a fair bit of mass. The accepted wisdom is 8-12 reps for hypertrophy to occur but the majority of beginners who do 5x5 for example in a full body work out would put on plenty of mass.

A beginner who has done nothing of the sort before will gain so much in neural adaptation that a seasoned lifter won't.

There is no comparison :P

dw300

Dat der noob gainz.

They should be mutually exclusive if you want to aim for high power to weight ratio, like cycling, or sports with weight classes. Also, if you simply want overall mass, such as in bodybuilding or for that trip to Ayia Napa.

seanoconn

Would I be right in thinking, as long as you're lifting increasingly heavy weights whilst losing weight, you should at least maintain muscle mass?

Camcycle1974

NeXXus wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Why should the two things be mutually exclusive? When I train for strength (in the 5 or less rep range) I seem to put on a fair bit of mass. The accepted wisdom is 8-12 reps for hypertrophy to occur but the majority of beginners who do 5x5 for example in a full body work out would put on plenty of mass.

A beginner who has done nothing of the sort before will gain so much in neural adaptation that a seasoned lifter won't.

There is no comparison :P

Who's comparing? He's a new lifter by the sound of it so what I said is entirely relevant. My approach to what he is asking is progressively heavier weights with a targeted calorie surplus after lifting and a much smaller surplus at other times. Macros can be manipulated to achieve other goals.

dw300

seanoconn wrote:

Would I be right in thinking, as long as you're lifting increasingly heavy weights whilst losing weight, you should at least maintain muscle mass?

That's what you need to do to maintain your strength while cutting, so you can pick up close to where you left off and make new strength gains when you start to bulk again.

You will loose a little mass, but not a significant amount if there is sufficient protein in your diet, even if you are in a deficit. Your body will only atrophy if it's not getting the protein from your diet. Remember that if you are a bodybuilder or athlete, you would need more than the average guy.

If you lift heavy in a deficit without enough protein, your body will simply get its protein from breaking down other muscle.

As a cyclist, you can train in a deficit and grow your legs and get stronger, despite an overall decrease in muscle mass. This is the bit most people don't really get. The whole idea that, you can only gain mass in a surplus, is a bodybuilding saying and refers to overall mass and is a good guideline if you don't want any atrophy anywhere. Again though, as a cyclist loosing upper body mass will actually make you a better cyclist (assuming you race up hills, and not just a flat TT or track guy), so training in a deficit in not really a problem in the short term if you are cutting, unless you are bothered by aesthetics. Im fairly sure all pros are in a deficit during Grand Tour events, you can almost see then getting leaner as the season goes on.