12-25 price compared to 11-25

rolf_f

bernithebiker wrote:

50-12 would get me to about 55km/h, DOWNHILL, whereas a 50-11 is good for 60km/h+, DOWNHILL. I would imagine many rider's Strava data shows a max of >55km/h.

I go out with a group of 30 or so on Sundays. Average age 50, but all competent riders. On the way home there is a hill that is 3km long and 2 to 4% steep. As it's the end of the ride, we all give it some, and everyone is in top gear, and speed is 55 to 65km/h. At the back of the peloton, the draft is such that you don't even have to pedal. This is a standard Sunday ride stuff, not Tour de France.

In terms of the calculations, you are absolutely correct. However, at 55-60km per hour air resistance is more of an issue than mechanics. Depending on circumstances, the question would be whether you can maintain the same cadence on 50-11 as you would on 50-12?

As for your peloton - if you aren't pedalling, it doesn't matter what cassette you've got! More seriously, obviously the aero effects of the peloton do mitigate against my argument above. But then I don't ride in big groups (seriously - 30 riders in one group on the road? That's not good/sensible by any stretch of the imagination on open roads.....) so I don't get that opportunity for easy pedalling. I suspect very few people on here do (or would want to) ride in that kind of group on the road. So again, your essential cassette is looking like it is used for a rather minority form of road cycling that doesn't apply to many of us.

t4tomo

antlaff wrote:

Out of curiosity, why is there always a £10-15 mark up from a 12-25 or 12-27 to 11-23 or 11-25?

There isn't

look same price:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-105-5700-10-speed-road-cassette/rp-prod50454?_$ja=tsid:46412|cgn:Shimano+-+Cassettes|cn:Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE|kw:179229UK_Shimano+105+5700+10+Speed+Road+Cassette&gclid=CIrXm-rzmLsCFRIPtAodJEsArQ

*many other example exist

Moonbiker

Im pretty sure I spin our fairly often on a standard with 52-38 12-23 gearing.

Did a bike stage of a tri recently about 40 miles average speed was 20 mph and was getting dropped on all the downhills repeatedly while in the 52-12 gear then catching & overtaking again on the uphills. Was passed but then re-overtook the same tri-guy on a full tri bike about 12 times was quit funny, & I was catching my breath on the hills & then going flat out on the downhills at a high cadence.

Cold be im just better on hills than downhills though maybe, or wasn't as aero as others as was without tri bars & the pointy helmets & skinsuits solid wheels etc.

EDIT: No drafting was allowed so didn't draft when got passed each time.

markhewitt1978

I find that it's not so much that I physically can't go any faster when I'm going downhill, it's that I don't particularly want to; once I get to 35mph-ish, that's fast enough for me! Call me a coward if you want but risk / reward comes into play.

bernithebiker

Rolf F wrote:

In terms of the calculations, you are absolutely correct. However, at 55-60km per hour air resistance is more of an issue than mechanics. Depending on circumstances, the question would be whether you can maintain the same cadence on 50-11 as you would on 50-12?

If I'm spinning out (i.e. cadence >110 or so) at 55km/h, I cannot add any more speed/power. An 11 gives you the option to add some speed if you want. Again, this is for a slope >3%. It could mean the difference between hanging on to the guy in front, or getting dropped.

Rolf F wrote:

As for your peloton - if you aren't pedalling, it doesn't matter what cassette you've got! More seriously, obviously the aero effects of the peloton do mitigate against my argument above. But then I don't ride in big groups (seriously - 30 riders in one group on the road? That's not good/sensible by any stretch of the imagination on open roads.....) so I don't get that opportunity for easy pedalling. I suspect very few people on here do (or would want to) ride in that kind of group on the road. So again, your essential cassette is looking like it is used for a rather minority form of road cycling that doesn't apply to many of us.

Even if the peloton were only 10, the same is 99% true. A good chunk of your air resistance is taken away, making it much easier to hold higher speeds. The 11 can also act as an 'overdrive' for relaxed low cadence. (And maybe come and try the roads in Brittany before deciding what constitutes too big a group?).

If I had wanted to act all tough, I would be saying ride 53-11 surely? Whilst in fact, every time the subject comes up, I always extol the virtues of compacts, saying that I believe that many cyclists out there on standards are overgeared, myself included.

Moonbiker

Done a couple of tokyo drift style wheel skids on bends downhill hill recently while still staying upright somehow, so now taking it easy on all the bends downhill till the summer, & roads are dry.

rolf_f

bernithebiker wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

If I'm spinning out (i.e. cadence >110 or so) at 55km/h, I cannot add any more speed/power. An 11 gives you the option to add some speed if you want. Again, this is for a slope >3%. It could mean the difference between hanging on to the guy in front, or getting dropped.

Even if the peloton were only 10, the same is 99% true. A good chunk of your air resistance is taken away, making it much easier to hold higher speeds. The 11 can also act as an 'overdrive' for relaxed low cadence. (And maybe come and try the roads in Brittany before deciding what constitutes too big a group?).

If I had wanted to act all tough, I would be saying ride 53-11 surely? Whilst in fact, every time the subject comes up, I always extol the virtues of compacts, saying that I believe that many cyclists out there on standards are overgeared, myself included.

Plenty of fair points but still doesn't seem to me a good case to say that an 11 is essential. Basically, you need to ride regularly in groups that are often pushing the high 30s and all of whom (presumably) also run 11s. I don't think many people are in that position.

As for Brittany - maybe I should give those roads a go. I suppose you have long, straight roads with little traffic. Rarely the case here.

markhewitt1978

During winter I've put on a 11-28 cassette instead of my normal 12-30. I've been fine with the 28 instead of 30, but I've never used the 11T. So when I put my summer wheels back on I'll be sticking with 12-30. I think I'd prefer to have 12-28 but I don't think such a beast exists.

antlaff

Monty Dog wrote:

Returning to sanity, in response to the OP's original question it's because 11+ cassettes are usually provided with a smaller lockring as regular ones are too big

Thanks for giving a plausible answer!

t4tomo

markhewitt1978 wrote:

During winter I've put on a 11-28 cassette instead of my normal 12-30. I've been fine with the 28 instead of 30, but I've never used the 11T. So when I put my summer wheels back on I'll be sticking with 12-30. I think I'd prefer to have 12-28 but I don't think such a beast exists.

If you are shimano, then there is a 12-28 in Tiagra, and a 12-27 in 105 and dura ace (but not Ultegra)

iPete

Forget the top end, the bit that's very very rarely used. Running 11-25 at the moment and I hate it compared with 11-23 as there is an awkward gap right on my cruising speed/cadence. I'd actually rather have 12-25.

bobmac64

iPete - couldn't agree more!
Why are cassettes always front end loaded with 11-12-13-14-15 cogs and then sometimes missing the key 16 or more often the 18 tooth cogs? I would rather skip the small cogs or have a gap down in the small cogs than smack dab in the middle of the cassette where a lot more of my time is spent.
Am I the only one frustrated by this, or are the rest of you in a 40 kph plus peloton?

ugo.santalucia

bobmac64 wrote:

iPete - couldn't agree more!
Why are cassettes always front end loaded with 11-12-13-14-15 cogs and then sometimes missing the key 16 or more often the 18 tooth cogs? I would rather skip the small cogs or have a gap down in the small cogs than smack dab in the middle of the cassette where a lot more of my time is spent.
Am I the only one frustrated by this, or are the rest of you in a 40 kph plus peloton?

Indeed, that's why I jumped on a 13-25 cassette...

xrecymech

Summer I use 12-25 with 52-36 Chainset, does me right enough, even abroad going down long descents I can't say I've ever need an 11. Winter bike is compact with 14-25, can't say I have ever need anything higher than that in winter. I'm not racing though, and If I get dropped it's not because I have run out of gears, it's because I am crap at going uphill

bernithebiker

bobmac64 wrote:

iPete - couldn't agree more!
Why are cassettes always front end loaded with 11-12-13-14-15 cogs and then sometimes missing the key 16 or more often the 18 tooth cogs? I would rather skip the small cogs or have a gap down in the small cogs than smack dab in the middle of the cassette where a lot more of my time is spent.
Am I the only one frustrated by this, or are the rest of you in a 40 kph plus peloton?

I use an 11 speed 11-23 cassette with a compact 50-34.

You get 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23.

So no gaps at all until you get to Gears 1 and 2.

The 34-23 is low enough to get up most normal hills - I switch to a 11-28 for the Alps/mountains.

So a nice tight range of gears with a low low and a high high. What's not to like?!

rolf_f

bernithebiker wrote:

The 34-23 is low enough to get up most normal hills - I switch to a 11-28 for the Alps/mountains.

So a nice tight range of gears with a low low and a high high. What's not to like?!

That depends on your definition of a normal hill! Normal hills around here are rather steeper than the Alps and it would be a brave person who took a 23 out for a ride around the Calder Valley! I wouldn't even want to do my commute with a 23 lowest gear!

For me, if I wanted a cassette for the flat, I suspect I'd go 12-23. For normal (for Yorkshire) hills, 12-27 or 12-29 - these are fine as long as the terrain is continually lumpy; it doesn't matter if you have a gap in the middle because you are mostly either climbing (on the bigger cogs) or descending (on the smaller cogs). The only real compromise is when you need them all - ie you need the up and down cogs plus the flat cogs.

bernithebiker

Rolf F wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

The 34-23 is low enough to get up most normal hills - I switch to a 11-28 for the Alps/mountains.

So a nice tight range of gears with a low low and a high high. What's not to like?!

That depends on your definition of a normal hill! Normal hills around here are rather steeper than the Alps and it would be a brave person who took a 23 out for a ride around the Calder Valley! I wouldn't even want to do my commute with a 23 lowest gear!

For me, if I wanted a cassette for the flat, I suspect I'd go 12-23. For normal (for Yorkshire) hills, 12-27 or 12-29 - these are fine as long as the terrain is continually lumpy; it doesn't matter if you have a gap in the middle because you are mostly either climbing (on the bigger cogs) or descending (on the smaller cogs). The only real compromise is when you need them all - ie you need the up and down cogs plus the flat cogs.

It's not rocket science. If your hills are steeper than the Alps, then use an Alps type cassette.

I'm not suggesting going up 10% + with a 34-23 is a good idea am I?

rolf_f

You asked what wasn't to like so I told you! Yorkshire isn't the Alps and it isn't mountains. It's just normal(ish) hilly countryside.

bernithebiker

Rolf F wrote:

You asked what wasn't to like so I told you! Yorkshire isn't the Alps and it isn't mountains. It's just normal(ish) hilly countryside.

You're being very pedantic.

Hills that are steeper than the Alps, are not 'normal' surely?

Alps is generally 6 - 10%. For which I would suggest an 11-28.

It therefore follows that if your hills are steeper than this, you would not choose an 11-23….

earth

shimano 11 speed 12-25 looks nice to my eyes.

12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25

More 2t jumps than the 11-23 but you still get 8 1t increments and those 16t and 18t sprockets not to mention the 25t bail out sprocket. For the hills where I am I would like this with compact front rings.

rolf_f

bernithebiker wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

You asked what wasn't to like so I told you! Yorkshire isn't the Alps and it isn't mountains. It's just normal(ish) hilly countryside.

You're being very pedantic.

Hills that are steeper than the Alps, are not 'normal' surely?

Alps is generally 6 - 10%. For which I would suggest an 11-28.

It therefore follows that if your hills are steeper than this, you would not choose an 11-23….

If I'm being pedantic then I think we both are! And yes, steeper than 6-10% is entirely normal around here; that isn't really a steep gradient at all around here. Alpine climbs are often remarkably not steep - it's the distance that makes them tough rather than the gradient.

bernithebiker

For the benefit of the pedants*

The 34-23 is low enough to get up the majority of uncategorized hills and climbs in the UK or France, where the gradient does not exceed 4% or the distance 4km^ - I switch to a 11-28 for the Alps/mountains, as I would were I to ride the terribly steep hills in Yorkshire.


*pedantic
pɪˈdantɪk/
adjective
1.
excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous.

^approx.