12-25 price compared to 11-25

antlaff

Out of curiosity, why is there always a £10-15 mark up from a 12-25 or 12-27 to 11-23 or 11-25?

markhewitt1978

Probably because they are manufactured in smaller quantities than the 11T versions, less supply hence higher price?

rolf_f

Teeth come in pairs so they have to throw one away for the 11's......

Yes, it is a lot to pay for one less tooth. Maybe it is a tax on excess ego!

night_porter

Rolf F wrote:

Teeth come in pairs so they have to throw one away for the 11's......

This is true, I went to the dentist and he charged me lots more to take a tooth away retrospectively. Obviously removing them at source is cheaper!!!

How Far is too Far

It is very annoying as a 12/27 is my favourite.

bernithebiker

Don't understand why you would want a 12, and not an 11.

Why throw away free top speed?

If you have a compact, I would say the 11 is pretty much essential. With a standard, I guess you can get away with a 12 if you want.

jibberjim

antlaff wrote:

Out of curiosity, why is there always a £10-15 mark up from a 12-25 or 12-27 to 11-23 or 11-25?

Buy Shimano...

antlaff

bernithebiker wrote:

Don't understand why you would want a 12, and not an 11.

Why throw away free top speed?

If you have a compact, I would say the 11 is pretty much essential. With a standard, I guess you can get away with a 12 if you want.

I want the 11-25!?!? Just dont want to pay premium for less teeth!

bobmac64

And what's the deal with new 11-speed cassettes, wheels, derailleurs - when all I will get out of this "investment in the future" is an 11 tooth cog?? I still would miss the 18 cog if I went 11-25, and would have to go to 11-23 to not have that gap in my gearing.
I am seriously considering going to a Campy 10 speed set up so I can have 13-26 (13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26) instead of going to the 11 gears.

Why not?

Either way I am going for a new, non-compatible system from the typical Shimano/SRAM 10 speed gearing, and Campagnolo will be fun for a change and fun to show off.

rolf_f

bernithebiker wrote:

Don't understand why you would want a 12, and not an 11.

Why throw away free top speed?

If you have a compact, I would say the 11 is pretty much essential. With a standard, I guess you can get away with a 12 if you want.

Translation: Bernie says: I'm a fabulous cyclist. But for unforeseen bad luck* I would have been Mark Cavendish but I'm humble so I'll pretend I'm like the rest of you all. Obviously, because I'm so damn fast, and we all live in exactly the same terrain, I use an 11, with a compact, and so should you. And I'll imply that if you don't then really you aren't a cyclist at all. At least not a fappin' perfect cyclist like me! Hell yeah, I'm AWESOME..........

*a significant shortfall in talent

For normal people - personally, I have both 25-11 and 25-12. I never miss the 11 when I am using the 12. The 11 makes knack all difference to most people unless you reach the god like heights of Mr BtB. With the 11, you get to pay £15 extra to have an extra gap in the middle of the cassette somewhere.

IrishMac

bobmac64 wrote:

And what's the deal with new 11-speed cassettes, wheels, derailleurs - when all I will get out of this "investment in the future" is an 11 tooth cog?? I still would miss the 18 cog if I went 11-25, and would have to go to 11-23 to not have that gap in my gearing.
I am seriously considering going to a Campy 10 speed set up so I can have 13-26 (13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26) instead of going to the 11 gears.

Why not?

Either way I am going for a new, non-compatible system from the typical Shimano/SRAM 10 speed gearing, and Campagnolo will be fun for a change and fun to show off.

Keep in mind you'll need new wheels too mate

mroli

Rolf F wrote:

Translation: Bernie says: I'm a fabulous cyclist.

To be fair, he robbed me of a load of Strava segments. By quite some considerable way. So he ain't a BAD cyclist...

bobmac64

Keep in mind you'll need new wheels too mate [/quote]

Agreed.

I see now that I can get an 11 speed cassette in Ultegra 6800 that is 12-25, which includes the 18 tooth cog.

Did I dream this, or did I read somewhere that 11 speed wheels / cassettes are all inter-changable between Shimano/SRAM and Campy?

Hmmm, might have to re-think: Campy 10 speed (non-compatable with everything else) or go 11 speed...

rolf_f

mroli wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Translation: Bernie says: I'm a fabulous cyclist.

To be fair, he robbed me of a load of Strava segments. By quite some considerable way. So he ain't a BAD cyclist...

Absolutely not - but he doesn't seem to be able to work out that not everyone has a normal cruising speed in the mid 20s! His post is pretty odd when you think about it!

rolf_f

bobmac64 wrote:

Keep in mind you'll need new wheels too mate

Agreed.

I see now that I can get an 11 speed cassette in Ultegra 6800 that is 12-25, which includes the 18 tooth cog.

Did I dream this, or did I read somewhere that 11 speed wheels / cassettes are all inter-changable between Shimano/SRAM and Campy?

Hmmm, might have to re-think: Campy 10 speed (non-compatable with everything else) or go 11 speed...[/quote]

I believe this is true. But, you might be able to just get a Campag 10 speed hub for your wheel rather than replacing the whole thing. Personally, if I was going to convert to Campag, I think my first preference would be old 10 speed Ultratorque or if I was buying new, Chorus 11 speed. At the moment, Athena is generally a big mistake.

bernithebiker

Rolf F wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Don't understand why you would want a 12, and not an 11.

Why throw away free top speed?

If you have a compact, I would say the 11 is pretty much essential. With a standard, I guess you can get away with a 12 if you want.

Translation: Bernie says: I'm a fabulous cyclist. But for unforeseen bad luck* I would have been Mark Cavendish but I'm humble so I'll pretend I'm like the rest of you all. Obviously, because I'm so damn fast, and we all live in exactly the same terrain, I use an 11, with a compact, and so should you. And I'll imply that if you don't then really you aren't a cyclist at all. At least not a fappin' perfect cyclist like me! Hell yeah, I'm AWESOME..........

*a significant shortfall in talent

What a complete load of tosh. Total misrepresentation of what I wrote, not to mention defamatory.

I have never boasted of any particular skill on here. As I am fairly small and light, my big weakness is holding high speeds on the flat or downhill. A good TTer I am definitely not. I am also terrible into a headwind, and I'm not much cop beyond 3 hours either. And I never had any pretensions of beating Cavendish..? Where did you dredge that up from?

But pedalling out a 50-11 is not that difficult given a downhill slope and I would imagine most on here could manage it. For me it equates to a top speed approaching 60km/h, and easy enough with a slope > 2 or 3%. Many on here have talked about their max being 70, 80, even 90km/h on steep downhills, so even a 53-11 would be spun out.

I cannot pedal out a 50-11 on the flat, no way. But downhills exist, so why not make the most of them? Speed is fun.

So take the massive chip off your shoulder, and understand my message, which is simply that an 11 gives you a higher top speed than a 12.

bernithebiker

Rolf F wrote:

mroli wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Translation: Bernie says: I'm a fabulous cyclist.

To be fair, he robbed me of a load of Strava segments. By quite some considerable way. So he ain't a BAD cyclist...

Absolutely not - but he doesn't seem to be able to work out that not everyone has a normal cruising speed in the mid 20s! His post is pretty odd when you think about it!

Who said anything about cruising speed? Me? No. Re read it.

There is nothing odd about my post when you think about it. Care to elaborate?

ugo.santalucia

bernithebiker wrote:

Don't understand why you would want a 12, and not an 11.

Why throw away free top speed?

If you have a compact, I would say the 11 is pretty much essential. With a standard, I guess you can get away with a 12 if you want.

I can honestly say I have never used the 11 T... not sure what kind of hams you have for legs, but you need to go around 38-40 mph to make any sense of an 11T... if you race and have that kind of sprint, then fair enough, otherwise it's a waste of space.
Right now I have 49 x 13 as the biggest gear and even that one doesn't really get used. I do use a 53 x 14 on the other bike in a TT when the wind is behind, but that's about it. I rate myself as kind of the Joe average of the cycleamateurs, who can do a short 26 on a good day on a 10 TT on a road bike with no aero bits and can climb with a VAM of 900-950 in the alps

rolf_f

Bernie wrote:

some stuff

Yes Bernie - it gives you a higher top speed for a few more seconds before you spin out. And that assumes you have the hills to take advantage of it. You have given the impression that anyone who can't use an 11 is in some way lacking yet now you say you need a descent to make any use of it. In what way does that make an 11 essential? Lots of people have no hills so are you changing your mind now or was your advice specifically for those in hilly country?

You are right about peoples speed boasting. All I've managed is 53mph - but that is in the Dales with a following wind and it happens for a few seconds two or three times a year. I made a point of including an 11 on my trip to the Alps this year but even then I wasn't able to benefit much from it - I was either quickly way past pedalling speed or slow around the hairpins.

I have no chip on my shoulder beyond not liking poor advice - you imply people are weak in not using 11s yet the concensus on here is normally that they are a poor choice. As for 'defamatory' - please, come on! We aren't in the playground. . The Cavendish ref was tongue in cheek - I thought that was as obvious as it was deliberately silly.

We are probably similar build - I ride longer distances probably but I am certainly a slower rider than you are but still reasonably presentable over lumpy ground. But I am a long way from really being able to use my 11-25s. I'll be old before I've worn one of those out.

bobmac64

Ugo - totally agree with you.
Similar thread started on SRAM force 22 vs. Ultegra 6800.
My comment there was to question why anyone would choose the SRAM option when the 11 speed combinations all started with the 11 cog: 11-25, 11-26, 11-28, and 11-32.

Maybe you could have a 48 (or 44?) tooth front chainring only and lose the front derailleur??

johnnymcg259

Fight!.....fight!....fight!
...............quick, leg it.............teachers coming...................................

bernithebiker

I never implied anyone was 'lacking' or 'weak in not using an 11. You are reading stuff into my post that is not there.

Noone rides on the flat all the time, not even in Norfolk. Inclines exist everywhere. Hills are a part of cycling life.

If the incline exceeds 3 or 4%, you will naturally pick up to 50 or 60km/h without even pedalling! So not difficult then.

The important point here is are you using compact or standard? I use compact 34-50, and I often use the 50-11 (when going downhill!). If you're on a standard 53, then I can see how the 11 would get less use, but I did mention that in my original post.

Brittany is fairly hilly, (generally 1% up, i.e. 100km ride = 1000m climbing), so maybe I see more downhills than most, but looking at Strava buddies in the UK, many have similar topography.

markhewitt1978

bernithebiker wrote:

I never implied anyone was 'lacking' or 'weak in not using an 11. You are reading stuff into my post that is not there.

Yes you did; that's precisely how your post read.

Personally I quite like a 12 small cog because yes; I do spin it out at times, but it's unimportant compared with having a better range.

Monty Dog

Returning to sanity, in response to the OP's original question it's because 11+ cassettes are usually provided with a smaller lockring as regular ones are too big

bobmac64

Maybe I can steer this back more to OP - just noticed on Ribble that if one chooses to select a 14-23 rear cassette (yes, that is correct a "14", how cool is that, will go well with 52/39/30 Campy Centaur triple!), but they want £20 more than the "standard" cassettes: 12-25 and 13-26.

Cheers!

markhewitt1978

Sounds like a good one though that it's 10 speed with a 1T gap between each, although I agree you'd need a triple to make proper use of it.

rolf_f

bernithebiker wrote:

I never implied anyone was 'lacking' or 'weak in not using an 11. You are reading stuff into my post that is not there.

Noone rides on the flat all the time, not even in Norfolk. Inclines exist everywhere. Hills are a part of cycling life.

If the incline exceeds 3 or 4%, you will naturally pick up to 50 or 60km/h without even pedalling! So not difficult then.

The important point here is are you using compact or standard? I use compact 34-50, and I often use the 50-11 (when going downhill!). If you're on a standard 53, then I can see how the 11 would get less use, but I did mention that in my original post.

Brittany is fairly hilly, (generally 1% up, i.e. 100km ride = 1000m climbing), so maybe I see more downhills than most, but looking at Strava buddies in the UK, many have similar topography.

No, hills are not everywhere. Try riding in the Fens, or the plain of York. Even less flat places, like Norfolk, probably aren't worth running an 11 for. OK, so you get up a Norfolk hill. How long are you actually descending? I suspect for the most part you'll struggle to be descending for more than 15 seconds (half a minute of fast descent covers quite an altitude drop) - so how much are you actually benefitting from the 11? And on 3-4%ers, I'm pretty sure I'm not spinning out on 50-12.

Me - I use a compact. I'm in Yorkshire - it's hilly. If I were to take your approach to advice, I would say this to the good folk on here: "The only cassette worth having is a 12-27; it's pretty much essential". And mostly I'd be right; if you happened to live in Yorkshire. Riding 25 minimum around here is probably something that Contador wouldn't do so why would I? I can manage without anything lower except for the really long, hard rides. If there was an 11-27 available I'd consider it but there are plenty of long, flattish sections as well as the hilly bits where the gap in the middle caused by the 11 tooth would probably be regretted.

If I lived in Cambridgeshire, I'd want a much narrower cassette (12-23 perhaps?) and if in the Lakes or Bowland, maybe a 12-29. Note, I do have a 13-29 for killer rides (sometimes modified as 11 or 12-29 if I can be bothered) - the 13 is far more obviously slower than the 12 than 12 is slower than the 13 but even then, it's been OK.

@Monty - yes, you do get a smaller lockring but I can't see how a lockring made of less metal justifies extra cost. It's a (slightly) glorified nut after all. 50p extra maybe - £15 - hardly!

Speaking of tHe Campag 12-27; that one is an expensive cassette but it is a thing of beauty!

freefall_junkie

A while ago I went from a 11-25 to 12-25 and except for the occasional long gentle downhill I dont really miss the 11. It has occurred to me that for many non-competitive or older riders a good combination might actually be an 11-25 with a cyclo cross sized 46 front ring. A 46/34 front with a 11-25 rear would give a similar top to a conventional 50-12 combination, but without the very large step between the front rings you get on a normal compact 50/34 chainset. Never heard of anyone using this combination, but with the new Ultegra offering 50/34 and cyclo cross 46/36 rings using the same cranks it would be eminently possible. What do you reckon guys? Not fashionable but I think it might work well for a lot of people.

Mark

bernithebiker

So when there was a topic recently about 'How fast have you been on your bike', or similar, how is it that most people were in the 70 to 90km/h range (with one or two topping 100)?

Sure as sh*t wasn't on a 50-12.

50-12 would get me to about 55km/h, DOWNHILL, whereas a 50-11 is good for 60km/h+, DOWNHILL. I would imagine many rider's Strava data shows a max of >55km/h.

I go out with a group of 30 or so on Sundays. Average age 50, but all competent riders. On the way home there is a hill that is 3km long and 2 to 4% steep. As it's the end of the ride, we all give it some, and everyone is in top gear, and speed is 55 to 65km/h. At the back of the peloton, the draft is such that you don't even have to pedal. This is a standard Sunday ride stuff, not Tour de France.

markhewitt1978

As I understand it Ultegra 6800 only goes up to 32T cassettes?

bobmac64

Mark - I like your idea.
When I re-started cycling my Felt had 12-25 (10 sp) with 50/34. I wanted to fill the 50 / 18 gap, but instead of swapping rear cassette, I put on 46 for the large chainring, effectively shifting all my gears closer to my sweet spot cruising speed of 20 mph. After my fitness improved, I put the 50 tooth large ring back on.