Pub Talk - The Perfect Win?

2

Comments

  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    Pantani's win at les Deux Alpes in 98. Epic escape. Horrible weather. Tour winning performance. What's more, that probably inspired a whole bunch of people to start riding.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    phreak wrote:
    Pantani's win at les Deux Alpes in 98. Epic escape. Horrible weather. Tour winning performance. What's more, that probably inspired a whole bunch of people to start riding.
    Poor old Stephen Roche the commentator "what's he doing he's stopping to put a rain jacket on, I don't believe it"
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,821
    Cav in 09 was narrowly beaten by Cav in 2012.

    WC lead out by the MJ doesn't get much better

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C4diLFBfcs
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    A couple of contenders from P-R, 1990 and 1993 with '90 shading it for me because of the added drama of chasing riders getting back to the leaders. Chiapucci to Sestrierre was a great stage but will always be tainted unfortunately. I also loved the Poli stage victory over Ventoux and into Carpentras.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    An unlikely set of circumstances but a rider who is a heavy favourite but who wins despite not having the best legs in the race and a weak team.

    Good legs can trump anything if they're good enough. But if we take a perfect win to be achieving the pinnacle whilst having the least available then you've got to put Jan Jansen's tour win up there. ( though he wasn't favourite)
    _
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    Hang on a minute Thom Thom. The title of the thread is the perfect win. I see lots of great and panache filled wins mentioned but even though the Copenhagen WC's was dull from the roadside that doesn't take away from the great team performance that resulted in Cav's win. He was the hot favourite in the sprint but it was the strength and tactical skill of the team as a whole that made them an unstoppable force, it was ...perfect
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    You could argue it is the only real "perfect" win. Most sprints are a mass finish with all the best sprinters in contention, and the fastest rider wins.

    A long breakaway win happens for one of four reasons. !. The riders are no danger to the overall so the peloton let them go. Its a gift. 2. The peloton let the break go with the intention of reeling it in before the finish, but leave it too late. Its luck. 3. One day race, the favorites are too busy marking each other and would rather a no hoper won it than a rival. A gift. 4. Merckx was so strong he could simply ride away from the peloton. A Canibal, but he was the exception that proves the rule.

    There are no gifts or lucky wins in mass sprint finishes, or indeed TTs. The fastest rider tends to win.

    Just some thoughts. :D
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    mike6 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    You could argue it is the only real "perfect" win. Most sprints are a mass finish with all the best sprinters in contention, and the fastest rider wins.

    A long breakaway win happens for one of four reasons. !. The riders are no danger to the overall so the peloton let them go. Its a gift. 2. The peloton let the break go with the intention of reeling it in before the finish, but leave it too late. Its luck. 3. One day race, the favorites are too busy marking each other and would rather a no hoper won it than a rival. A gift. 4. Merckx was so strong he could simply ride away from the peloton. A Canibal, but he was the exception that proves the rule.

    There are no gifts or lucky wins in mass sprint finishes, or indeed TTs. The fastest rider tends to win.

    Just some thoughts. :D

    Good points Mike 6. Also there is the set up for the sprint by the team. HTC were the masters of the perfect win. I guess if we could all agree that OPQS instigated the breaks in the echelons stage of the Tour (I say this on the basis that both Belkin and Saxo were also driving forces) you could put that down as the perfect win for Cav.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    madasahattersley wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    You could argue it is the only real "perfect" win. Most sprints are a mass finish with all the best sprinters in contention, and the fastest rider wins.

    A long breakaway win happens for one of four reasons. !. The riders are no danger to the overall so the peloton let them go. Its a gift. 2. The peloton let the break go with the intention of reeling it in before the finish, but leave it too late. Its luck. 3. One day race, the favorites are too busy marking each other and would rather a no hoper won it than a rival. A gift. 4. Merckx was so strong he could simply ride away from the peloton. A Canibal, but he was the exception that proves the rule.

    There are no gifts or lucky wins in mass sprint finishes, or indeed TTs. The fastest rider tends to win.

    Just some thoughts. :D

    There are loads of solo wins that aren't gifts. Think of most of Cancellara's classics wins for instance. He goes into those races as the absolute favourite and is very very heavily marked but when he's on form will end up riding away from the other favourites on the cobbled climbs.

    On a smaller level think of Ian Stannard winning the national champs, or Wiggins winning it the year before.

    Good points Mad. I was just making the point that not all wins from long breaks are great swashbuckling rides.

    I love to see Spartacus riding away in the last couple of Ks, and hope he is not caught. The reason most long breaks are doomed, as we all know, is physics. A lone rider will never, all things being equal, hold off an organised chase, unless there is a crash or they sit up.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    For me, Boonen's P-R win last year was damn near perfect...a thing of beauty...
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Ha TT I would say you are right. A sprint can be perfect in its execution and can be exciting and interesting to watch for 30secs but thats about it. Its in its own league of comparison it cannot come close to many of the wins mentioned.

    Solo from distance from a top contender is the best as for them to escape is so difficult and these days to stay out there close to impossible. Obviously Contador's Vuelta win stands out a mile but also Schleck's win.

    A solo ride from distance like some of Riblon's are also for me some of the best for a lower level rider from distance.

    The big solo (or very small group) long rides in the Classics from favourites is beautiful watching.

    Essentially any ride that makes you sit on the edge of your seat, gets your heart pounding, your happiness and worry gauge rocketing at the same time is one of the perfect rides. If you are emotionally lost in the performance that day then you are watching a ride in the upper echelons of worthiness (definitely extended to rides not resulting in wins but not to sidetrack the thread). Which is why I dont enjoy Sky rides - they do not provide this emotional response for me.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • dave milne
    dave milne Posts: 703
    ellerslierd wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Solo from distance.

    ... but so close to being caught they are classified as the same time as the chasers.

    Like Tony Martin almost managed
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    Hang on a minute Thom Thom. The title of the thread is the perfect win. I see lots of great and panache filled wins mentioned but even though the Copenhagen WC's was dull from the roadside that doesn't take away from the great team performance that resulted in Cav's win. He was the hot favourite in the sprint but it was the strength and tactical skill of the team as a whole that made them an unstoppable force, it was ...perfect

    The route was dead flat, weather was good, competition was meh and a team controlling the bunch in such circumstances for a whole day to win with their sprinter is seen thousands of times.

    Was it perfect? Well, yeah.. Okay. I guess they did what they planned before the race started but why not pick a win that was perfect, actually interesting and beautiful instead?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    No other takers for Jan Jansen's tour win?

    Even written about in this month's procycling.
    _
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    ThomThom wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    Hang on a minute Thom Thom. The title of the thread is the perfect win. I see lots of great and panache filled wins mentioned but even though the Copenhagen WC's was dull from the roadside that doesn't take away from the great team performance that resulted in Cav's win. He was the hot favourite in the sprint but it was the strength and tactical skill of the team as a whole that made them an unstoppable force, it was ...perfect

    The route was dead flat, weather was good, competition was meh and a team controlling the bunch in such circumstances for a whole day to win with their sprinter is seen thousands of times.

    Was it perfect? Well, yeah.. Okay. I guess they did what they planned before the race started but why not pick a win that was perfect, actually interesting and beautiful instead?

    Well I think the echelon stage at the Tour ticked those boxes and perhaps some of Billy Boonen's and Canc's P-R's but such was their dominance that the race was effectively over someway out. Dan Martin's LBL could tick the box as there were great tactics from Garmin. I'd also throw in young Yates' ToB win last season. Perfectly timed and executed against some heavyweight opposition.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ThomThom wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I know we've had this discussion countless times - but a bloody sprint as a perfect win?

    Jesus..

    Frenchie, go teach 'em..

    ;)

    Hang on a minute Thom Thom. The title of the thread is the perfect win. I see lots of great and panache filled wins mentioned but even though the Copenhagen WC's was dull from the roadside that doesn't take away from the great team performance that resulted in Cav's win. He was the hot favourite in the sprint but it was the strength and tactical skill of the team as a whole that made them an unstoppable force, it was ...perfect

    The route was dead flat, weather was good, competition was meh and a team controlling the bunch in such circumstances for a whole day to win with their sprinter is seen thousands of times.

    Was it perfect? Well, yeah.. Okay. I guess they did what they planned before the race started but why not pick a win that was perfect, actually interesting and beautiful instead?

    Well....Interesting and beautiful would be a personal point of view, would it not? I find a long one day race that one team is trying to control, all day, to be very interesting. Can they do it? What will the other teams try, what happens if it is windy, a mechanical, a crash, there protected rider is on a bad day? You could argue it was more beautiful because it was the team plan and It worked perfectly, despite all the other teams plans. One team controlling a whole race must be one of the most difficult things to pull off, especially when they have the favorite in there ranks and there intentions have been publicised well in advance.

    The competition in the World Road Race Championship was meh? I think the other guys in the race might disagree with you on that.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    "find a long one day race that one team is trying to control, all day, to be very interesting. Can they do it? What will the other teams try, what happens if it is windy, a mechanical, a crash, there protected rider is on a bad day?"

    Yeah, that sounds absolutely thrilling..

    And the WC wasn't windy nor was it influenced by crashes.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ThomThom wrote:
    "find a long one day race that one team is trying to control, all day, to be very interesting. Can they do it? What will the other teams try, what happens if it is windy, a mechanical, a crash, there protected rider is on a bad day?"

    Yeah, that sounds absolutely thrilling..

    And the WC wasn't windy nor was it influenced by crashes.

    I did not say it was windy and i did not say there was a crash. I was talking about watching it live.

    No less thrilling than a lone breakaway...... what makes that thrilling? Will he stay away, will the other teams chase, is he on a good day, will he have a mechanical etc etc?? Its no different to me, we cant have every race finishing up a cliff face just so an "exciting" climber can win it.
    Horses for courses.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Double post. :oops:
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Of course we can't! But we are talking about WC11 being the perfect win as some suggested. Why are we talking about lone breakaways now?
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Look, would it be easier if we just ask TWH to change the title of the thread to Thom Thom's Perfect Win?

    He he :lol:
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Where do I sign?
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ThomThom wrote:
    Of course we can't! But we are talking about WC11 being the perfect win as some suggested. Why are we talking about lone breakaways now?

    Because others suggested only a lone breakaway could be deemed exciting, have you not been following, or are you only interested in disagreeing with my personal opinion? :?:

    You come up with a perfect win and let the forum discuss its merits. :D
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    mike6 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    Of course we can't! But we are talking about WC11 being the perfect win as some suggested. Why are we talking about lone breakaways now?

    You come up with a perfect win and let the forum discuss its merits. :D

    That's an easy one.

    Giro 2012 stage 12.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    I KNEW IT

    Oh Mike, Mike....cant believe you walked right into that one...

    :)
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,652
    We watch cycling for the excitement, so the perfect win has to include some. The majority of it comes from some uncertainty, so a win by a tyre is good. That's why some will hold that a bunch sprint is the perfect win, as the uncertainty remains to the end of the stage. Unfortunately the excitement tends to be limited to the last few km.

    But we also like to see panache - a gutsy ride. So lets make it some sort of breakaway that involves a lot of very hard work.

    Lastly, lets not ignore tactics, we love to see cunning and nous come into play.

    So for me, not a sprint, but not a solo break either.

    I like to see a rider who gets in an early break, works their arse off to keep it away, plays the breakaway right to shed the sprinting threats with a couple of attacks near the end, then battles it out for glory in a sprint with the remaining break.

    That's the perfect win. Entertaining all day long, satisfying on both an intellectual and emotional level and plenty of excitement in the finish.

    Anyone that doesn't agree is clearly a moron that should find a new sport to watch.

















    ;-)
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    We watch cycling for the excitement, so the perfect win has to include some. The majority of it comes from some uncertainty, so a win by a tyre is good. That's why some will hold that a bunch sprint is the perfect win, as the uncertainty remains to the end of the stage. Unfortunately the excitement tends to be limited to the last few km.

    But we also like to see panache - a gutsy ride. So lets make it some sort of breakaway that involves a lot of very hard work.

    Lastly, lets not ignore tactics, we love to see cunning and nous come into play.

    So for me, not a sprint, but not a solo break either.

    I like to see a rider who gets in an early break, works their ars* off to keep it away, plays the breakaway right to shed the sprinting threats with a couple of attacks near the end, then battles it out for glory in a sprint with the remaining break.

    That's the perfect win. Entertaining all day long, satisfying on both an intellectual and emotional level and plenty of excitement in the finish.

    Anyone that doesn't agree is clearly a moron that should find a new sport to watch




    ;-)

    On this basis I'd move Keisse's Tour of Turkey stage win up the pecking order. Breakaway, bike dump, Kirby having kittens etc. I might You Tube it again to see if he still wins.

    I'm really hoping for a good head to head between Fab and Boonen in the Spring. I sense next season might be the last chance to see them both at the top of their game.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Anyone can win if they have the strongest legs. You don't need to ride a perfect race to win those kind of races.

    Cancellara could have won that 2010 race any which way he wanted.
    _
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Yeah for me it's one where a rider takes their chance when not necessarily the strongest. Ignoring any personal feelings we may have about the individuals Ballan's world champs was a good example, Vino at the Olympics another. Kelly's final MSR - he took his chance on the descent and then sat patiently before opening his sprint the most famous that comes to mind - there must be plenty of ood ones but as I'm recovering from concussion I don't want to think too hard :wink:
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]

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