Fred Whitton - sub 7 hours?

nammynake

If I get a place next year I would like to aim for sub 7 hours. I did it in 7:51 this year, so this may be nigh on impossible, but I like having something to aim for!

My training this year consisted of a progressively longer weekend ride (mostly solo rides), getting up to around 80 miles a couple of weeks before the Fred. My weekend rides were always hilly, although not quite up to the Fred's ascent per mile. I did 2 or sometimes 3 mid-week turbo sessions, pretty much always the 2x20 format. I started this training in February and continued up until the event.

I'd be interested to hear from people who've gone sub-7 hours and hear what kind of training you did and what your background was. I've only been riding my road bike for 2 years so didn't have a hugely strong base to begin from.

I admit the weather was pretty horrid this year and with better weather I could have maybe got round in 7:30, but I'd like to be able to go sub 7 regardless of conditions.

Thanks

amaferanga

I'd suggest that doing 2x20 sessions week after week after week in training for a route that doesn't have nice steady 20 minute climbs isn't exactly ideal training. You need progression in your training and you need to think more about the sort of efforts that are needed for that route.

amaferanga

madasahattersley wrote:

Conversely, I'd recommend doing 2x20s as an excellent relatively low stress way to raise your FTP without taking too much time out of your schedule.

Would you only do 2x20 sessions to train for road racing and expect that to get you race fit? There are other things to consider as well as ftp, as I'm sure you (or your coach) will know.

nammynake

I was thinking it would be worthwhile joining a local club and stretch myself in one of the faster groups. I ride solo most of the time but do push myself, but I suspect I need to go out of my comfort zone to really build on my fitness.

Worth noting that I'm 63kg (5'8") so I don't really have much weight to lose for a quick win.

Toks

amaferanga wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Conversely, I'd recommend doing 2x20s as an excellent relatively low stress way to raise your FTP without taking too much time out of your schedule.

Would you only do 2x20 sessions to train for road racing and expect that to get you race fit? There are other things to consider as well as ftp, as I'm sure you (or your coach) will know.

2 x 20's and other such intervals designed to raise Threshold Power really are a must for most time crunched cyclists (that's most of the people on here, right?). In short they're a cut to the chase, work but don't suffer method of getting physically fit for every cycling event that last longer than a couple of minutes.
However, if your chosen event also requires lots of sprinting, attacking and hard-as-you-can-for-minute type digs there's clearly other bits of training you should also do. But... even in such events where those other element play a big part your FTP is still the most significant factor. And yes...of course it should still be said, there's a million ways to skin a cat ..When you can, grab a coffee and read this article http://velodynamics2.webs.com/LTtest.pdf

amaferanga

madasahattersley wrote:

This is a 7 hour sportive no? What part of a 7 hour sportive requires you to have a massive sprint, anaerobic capacity, Vo2 max etc? I'd say the only things necessary to focus on for this fort of thing are threshold power and endurance

Of course it's an endurance event, but it has ridiculously steep climbs that riding steady 20min threshold intervals exclusively won't prepare you for. A good 3-5min power will be a real benefit for the type of climbs, as will the ability to do multiple efforts above threshold. So endurance and ftpare clearly important (no-one said they weren't), but training power for shorter durations will help for this type of event.

Go ask your coach what he thinks.....

StillGoing

How about some pyramid intervals but rather than going to a 0% incline between levels, stick at nothing less than 2% for the rest periods, provided of course you have a turbo capable of calculating incline percentages for you?

vanleapo

I have ridden the FWC in sub 7 hours.

My training involved basically riding as many hills as possible. The steeper the better.
I live in Scotland so that's not too difficult, but if your in Cambridge I don't think there's much in the way of hills down there.

I work offshore, so spend a lot of time on turbos and spin bikes. So if you have to use a turbo I would defintely advise getting a few Sufferfest videos. You can't beat Sufferfest - Angels for improving your hill climbing.

Also, try and get up to the Lake District for the Lakeland Loop, in April. At least that way you will know how your training is going.

bahzob

nammynake wrote:

I was thinking it would be worthwhile joining a local club and stretch myself in one of the faster groups. I ride solo most of the time but do push myself, but I suspect I need to go out of my comfort zone to really build on my fitness.

Worth noting that I'm 63kg (5'8") so I don't really have much weight to lose for a quick win.

Not sure I would recommend this, very much depends on the local club and how they organise their rides. If not done in a very focussed manner then group rides can be an easy way to spend lots of time doing nothing that has any training benefit.

That said I agree if you spend a lot of time riding solo then doing something to get yourself out of your comfort zone is a good idea and having outside motivation helps with this.

If not already done so then one way to do this is do some "road" racing. Around my neck of the woods we have winter seasons that take place that start early in the year on motor circuits. They are easy to enter, you just turn up, pay and ride.

They can be a great way to train, just keeping up with the pack once things start moving involves having lots of short sharp accelerations that will hurt at first. If you feel keen you can make an attack and try to hold off the bunch for a bit that will give you a good threshold+ workout and/or try to join an existing attack that will involve some serious VO2/threshold work (if the group is half good).

Main risk with racing is that it can become a bit addictive so you end up exhausting yourself (though having a lot off fun in the process). But if you do an event every couple of weeks or so and schedule a rest day after shouldn't be too much of a problem.

bernithebiker

bahzob wrote:

can be an easy way to spend lots of time doing nothing that has any training benefit.

This is something I've often asked myself; what are 'junk' miles? Isn't every minute spent out riding of some benefit?

Our Sunday group ride starts off slow and steady, Zone 1 and 2 for an hour or two, then some power blasts up hills, then the final 1/2 hour is threshold stuff, with a flat out sprint finish.

Is any of that junk?

carrock

vanleapo wrote:

I have ridden the FWC in sub 7 hours.

My training involved basically riding as many hills as possible. The steeper the better.
I live in Scotland so that's not too difficult, but if your in Cambridge I don't think there's much in the way of hills down there.

I work offshore, so spend a lot of time on turbos and spin bikes. So if you have to use a turbo I would defintely advise getting a few Sufferfest videos. You can't beat Sufferfest - Angels for improving your hill climbing.

Also, try and get up to the Lake District for the Lakeland Loop, in April. At least that way you will know how your training is going.

I think the answer is simple, as above. Man who wants to do well in ride with lots of hills rides lots of hills in training.....

Find a few local hills with similar route profiles and practice riding up a few of them back to back. Not ridden up all of the passes but Honister is 25 to 30 % and hardknott is slightly worse I think.

The other thing is making sure your bike is suitable. At your weight you may not need MTB rear derailleur but 34/28 may be wise. And some cleat covers in case you need to walk up hardknott. What goes up must come down so fit new brake shoes a week before the event.

cougie

That would put you in the top 7% or so of riders - so clearly doable - but you'll need plenty of training to improve.

I don't think there's any substitute for riding the roads you'll be riding on. The more you ride them the better you'll get at climbing and descending and every second will count.

nammynake

Sounds like I just need to add distance and ascent to my rides. The link below is one of my rides a few weeks before the FW and is quite typical of the kind I was doing just before the event:

http://app.strava.com/activities/48570070

bigmat

You need to be able to put in a sustained power effort when you are already fooked to get up Hardknott and Wrynose quickly. That sting in the tail can easily cost you 20 minutes if you blow up. Maybe try a hard turbo session atthe end of a century training ride (or just make sure you put in a big block of effort at the end out on the road).

It was a few years ago but I think I did Fred in 7:20 something. Probably spent the 20 minutes at the food stops, and also had to walk most of Hardknott so I'd like to think I could go sub-7 (but then it was perfect weather conditions which really helped).

okgo

Surely just put gearing on the bike that means you can get up these climbs without going too far out of your threshold?

If that means 34/30 sod it

bernithebiker

okgo wrote:

Surely just put gearing on the bike that means you can get up these climbs without going too far out of your threshold?

If that means 34/30 sod it

Quite, even strong riders should be on 34/28 minimum with those kind of hills.

mididoctors

I suspect you are going to need to train a lot...big miles big efforts comes to mind

let us know how you did ;-)

ronnierocket

For a goal like this I think you need to be prepared to be super dedicated. Not to miss a session, eat properly etc.. I think when you finish and if it has/hasnt happened for you is to know that you did everything you could to make it happen. My goal after completing my first Etape Caledonia in 4hr 30 (2011) was to do the next one in sub 4 hrs (2012) and I did the work but it didn't happen on the day (weather was horrendous and average times were way up) but I wasn't too disappointed because I know had trained as hard as I could . The next year(2013) I did it in 3:45 and it some ways it was an easier effort, good groups etc..

I definitely think training should be a lot harder than the ride itself and it's worth reading some sports pyschology book pre-event to convince yourself that you done the training you need and not too worry that you havent. I did the Crow Road in Glasgow 10 times up and down this year(70 miles in total) in preparation for an Alps trip just so that I could suffer and know how to dig deep.

DeVlaeminck

I'd like a sub 7 too Nammy - did 7.14/15 this year so would like to think if I hadn't cracked in the freezing rain on Cold Fell I might have got close but who knows.

One thing is don't underestimate the advantage of getting in a good group. After Kirkstone I was totally on my own, then some guy came past and we started sharing the work, picked up a mate of mine who started 10 minutes earlier and we were making much better time. Then on the big A road a group came past who were flying and we just jumped on and got a tow all the way to Honister - but these guys were taking no prisoners and you had to be confident following wheels and willing to go a bit deeper than you'd want on some lumps and make sure you didn't lose them overtaking groups or at junctions - so training with a group is going to be a big advantage so you are used to that. Sub7 as a solo time trial is going to be a much harder ask.

From previous attempts years back you also need to make sure you can ride Hardknott or at least all but the last ramp - you do lose shedloads pushing it up there. My tactic this time was take it as easily as I could and I got up quite comfortably - ok I might have lost a minute or two over what I might have climbed it in but the risk of lowing and losing 20 minutes is bigger if you are around our kind of time.

As for training. I just did it off my normal training to race veterans and 2/3/4 BC races.

bahzob

bernithebiker wrote:

bahzob wrote:

can be an easy way to spend lots of time doing nothing that has any training benefit.

This is something I've often asked myself; what are 'junk' miles? Isn't every minute spent out riding of some benefit?

Our Sunday group ride starts off slow and steady, Zone 1 and 2 for an hour or two, then some power blasts up hills, then the final 1/2 hour is threshold stuff, with a flat out sprint finish.

Is any of that junk?

Assumes that the main goal (as in this post) of riding a bike is training to get faster/fitter. Also assumes that for most folks time is a limiter. In this case ride above the time spent "slow and steady" will have next to no benefit.

Doing "threshold" workouts is also pretty difficult (in terms of hitting target power) and needs a lot of focus. It also entails going a much higher speeds than you would if solo which has the effect of making any stops/slowdowns having a much greater impact in terms of hitting effort range.

On the other hand group pressure can be a motivator so hill climbs/sprints are good but arguably of less benefit this time of year and anyway don't really need a 3-4 hour ride.

Ofc there are other reasons to ride a bike than training and in this case group rides can be fun, but not if your goal is as stretching as that of the OP.

bahzob

DeVlaeminck wrote:

One thing is don't underestimate the advantage of getting in a good group.
...

This /\

I love sportives and I like to train hard and ride fast so have succumbed to the temptation of setting goals in terms of target times.

However I am honest enough to admit this has caused me to take a fair number of risks and it's only a matter of good luck that I haven't come a serious cropper.

Also it sucks that to a very large extent hitting your goal depends on a fair degree of luck in terms of finding the right group to ride with.

So I have pretty much given up setting target times for sportives. What I will do is set targets for the bits where going hard is safe and the result depends pretty much on me (i.e. the climbs). The rest of the course I will just chill out and enjoy the ride.

If I want to set a target time then I will ride the event solo, so it's just up to me. If I feel like it I can compare myself to others with Strava. What's more some courses, including the FW I believe, are "permanents" with controls which makes this easier.

My advice to the OP is train and ride to do a solo time a couple of weeks before the event itself. Then ride the event for fun and take what comes.

nammynake

DeVlaeminck - definitely agree about the advantage of being in a big group. I was in a group of 30 plus along the A66 and all the way to Honister. We were going like the clappers - I got a bit carried away and ended riding at the front for quite a few miles so probably didn't get the benefit myself! Rode the majority of the route solo though.

I managed all the climbs but struggled with 34-27 on Honister and Hardknott. I know 1 extra tooth isn't much but I'll probably fit a 28 tooth cassette next time.

guyw1lson

Specificity in training is crucial. For this reason one should make the most of the data provided by past experiences. I have just had a look through the power meter file for my Fred Whitton this year. I did it in 7hrs 9mins. Here are my findings:

2hr 20 @ AR, 1hr 40 @ Endurance, 1hr 07 @ Tempo,
52 mins @ FTP, 29 mins @ VO2, 22 mins @ AC

25 Bursts of between 30s and 1 min @ 350w (60-70rmp)
7 Bursts of 1 - 3 min @ 300w (ish)
only 1 or 2 VO2 intervals of around 5 mins

Whilst I have made some reccomendations below please remember training requirements are specific to an individual. These are approximations and should you want personalised advice you should consult a coach (happy to help if required).

For the next few months I would reccomend a healthy dose of threshold training. Make sure you are hitting the right intensity for these sessions, your sweet spot would be fine for the next couple of months then putting it up to right at your threshold closer to the event. Also remember that as you train, your FTP will grow and you need to adjust for this over time, maybe every 4-6 weeks. You could also spend some time training your neuromuscular power (big ring sprints from an almost standing start of no more than 20 seconds, ideally around 15 seconds, with at least 4 mins of recovery between sprints and do about 20 of these in a session).

I would also suggest doing plenty of Anaerobic (8-12 x 1-3mins) and VO2max (5 or 6 x 3 to 5mins intervals) workouts in the 6 - 8 weeks running up to the Fred. This is not necessarily so that you can put out stronger sprints up hills but so you can recover more easily from these efforts. i.e. You would be training you Functional Reserve Capacity (sometimes referred to as Anearobic Work Capacity (W'), but the technical details of these terms are slightly different).

Lastly consider your taper before the event, pacing and fuelling are also critical. Put in as little efforts as you can on the really tough sections (think low gear, I was on 34/28) and maintain a decent but sustainable pace on the flatter sections. Eat regularly, circa 60grams of carbs per hour.

Good luck, I'll be aiming for 6:30 next year, it's going to be tough!