6th death in London today...

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  • ToeKnee
    ToeKnee Posts: 376
    [Will watch from home.]

    I am dismayed that, given the attention grabbing headlines about the recent deaths, people are still riding like total tools (and that's not considering the RLJers who give us such a good name). The stats could be alot worse and perhaps that's the way they go until people start to think about their actions and ride more sensibly.

    There was a motorcyclist down in Regent's Park (Outer Circle/Baker Street) ... looked horrendous - bike in so many pieces ... hope by a small miracle it's not too serious.
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  • According to the Beeb: The crash happened at the junction of Camberwell Road and Albany Road in Camberwell just after midday. Collision with a lorry.

    I rode that precise spot on Wednesday and Friday nights last week. There are two lanes heading south on Camberwell Road leading to the lights at the junction with Albany Road. Both very narrow. Left lane is left turn only. ASL at the junction. Far side of the junction narrows to a single lane. Lots of ways to a bad outcome.
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  • jds_1981
    jds_1981 Posts: 1,858
    http://www.lbc.co.uk/police-catching-cy ... -law-81518
    As well as cyclists, 20 HGVs were stopped and 60 offences were found to be committed, including vehicles in dangerous condition and drivers who had been working too long.
    avg 3 offences per lorry?
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  • fat_tail
    fat_tail Posts: 786
    spasypaddy wrote:
    Another man down :(


    I implore you all to watch this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
    thanks for sharing that. very informative and downright scary
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  • rubertoe
    rubertoe Posts: 3,994
    RIP.
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  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,548
    jds_1981 wrote:
    http://www.lbc.co.uk/police-catching-cyclists-who-break-the-law-81518
    As well as cyclists, 20 HGVs were stopped and 60 offences were found to be committed, including vehicles in dangerous condition and drivers who had been working too long.
    avg 3 offences per lorry?
    :shock: Now that is terrifying, and surely significantly more dangerous to the general public than a bloke on a bicycle not wearing a bash hat.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    fat_tail wrote:
    spasypaddy wrote:
    I implore you all to watch this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
    thanks for sharing that. very informative and downright scary

    At first I thought - just badly adjusted mirrors - not adjusted wide enough to see down the side properly ... then when I saw the lorry with trailer angled you've got to think that ANY lorry driver not knowing that that position will cause a major hazard for anything on his left hand side needs sacking - what's the answer? Better positioned mirrors/camera and/or glass lower in the passenger door.
    Obviously cyclists need to be aware of this sort of thing as well - but whilst they could've come in from behind equally they could've been sat there when the lorry driver drew up...

    We can implement changes for our own lorries - but what about foreign ones? Could they just be banned from within say the M25 ? or perhaps the inner circular road?
  • There is already a lorry ban for central London - it covers vehicles weighing more than 18 tonnes between 9pm and 7am.

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/microsites/freigh ... cheme.aspx

    So it is really intended to avoid disturbing the sleep of some people in central London, but ensures there is a cavalry charge of HGVs for the morning rush hour.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Have said it before and will say it again - if a vehicle has such massive blindspots, it isn't safe to be driven on the majority of city centre roads. That is a situation that needs to be addressed one way or another. Having said that, have any of the recent cluster of deaths involved articulated lorries? I thought they were mainly tipper trucks and buses? In which case we're probably back to poorly adjusted mirrors / drivers not looking carefully enough.
  • BigMat wrote:
    Have said it before and will say it again - if a vehicle has such massive blindspots, it isn't safe to be driven on the majority of city centre roads. That is a situation that needs to be addressed one way or another. Having said that, have any of the recent cluster of deaths involved articulated lorries? I thought they were mainly tipper trucks and buses? In which case we're probably back to poorly adjusted mirrors / drivers not looking carefully enough.

    Trouble is you can draw up a list saying, driver didn't look, driver was distracted, etc etc. as if that's the solution - blame the lorry driver, or blame the cyclist and that's fine, we don't have to do anything. But human beings are falable, we aren't always concentrating 100%, we don't always follow the rules precisely. We need a situation where mistakes don't result in death.
  • EKE_38BPM
    EKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    RIP. I don't know any details of the collision, but some generalities hold true no matter what happened on this sad occasion:
    HGV drivers need to be aware of the cyclists around them, but more mirrors are not the answer. The vehicle can have a million and one mirrors but the driver only has one pair of eyes and can't look at all of them at once. Cycle awareness training for HGV drivers can help but the problem of poor visibility from the cab will remain until the design of the cab is improved.
    Cyclists need to be aware of how poor the visibility from the cab of a HGV is and NEVER EVER go up the inside of a large vehicle. Again, training for cyclists can help, but failing that, cyclists should at least realise that if they can't see the driver in the mirrors of the vehicle, the driver can't see the cyclist. That is just obvious to me but not to everyone.

    I don't understand why cyclists not in hi-viz or wearing a helmet were getting stopped by the police. Lights are necessary in conditions of poor visibility (dark, foggy etc) but on a clear day not having a light is not a legal requirement so they shouldn't have been stopped.
    If you are riding a bike on a clear & bright day without lights and not wearing a helmet or hi-viz, and your bike is legal in every other respect, do you have to stop if the police want to "advise" you?
    I assume you do but I wouldn't be too happy about it.

    In the area where the police were stopping cyclists who were cycling legally, I wonder how many motorists drove through above the speed limit and/or on the phone?
    I would love to see a massive crackdown on people using their phone whilst driving.
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  • Why are we all assuming the cyclist did anything wrong? :roll:
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  • Agent57
    Agent57 Posts: 2,300
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Cyclists need to be aware of how poor the visibility from the cab of a HGV is and NEVER EVER go up the inside of a large vehicle.

    I think "never ever" is OTT. I ride up on the inside of HGVs, but only when I can be certain it's not about to turn (or preferably not about to move). But in certain situations, I don't think it's a problem. I do sit behind them when they're at the front of a queue at lights, mind.
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  • EKE_38BPM
    EKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    Agent57 wrote:
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Cyclists need to be aware of how poor the visibility from the cab of a HGV is and NEVER EVER go up the inside of a large vehicle.

    I think "never ever" is OTT. I ride up on the inside of HGVs, but only when I can be certain it's not about to turn (or preferably not about to move). But in certain situations, I don't think it's a problem. I do sit behind them when they're at the front of a queue at lights, mind.
    If you were talking to a novice, would you say "never ever" or that its OK in some circumstances? I'll stick with "never ever" and as they get more experience they'll learn when to break the rules.
    Why are we all assuming the cyclist did anything wrong? :roll:
    Who has blamed the cyclist?
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  • 16mm
    16mm Posts: 545
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    RIP. I don't know any details of the collision, but some generalities hold true no matter what happened on this sad occasion:
    HGV drivers need to be aware of the cyclists around them, but more mirrors are not the answer. The vehicle can have a million and one mirrors but the driver only has one pair of eyes and can't look at all of them at once. Cycle awareness training for HGV drivers can help but the problem of poor visibility from the cab will remain until the design of the cab is improved.
    How about these as the answer
    http://trucks.autotrader.co.uk/used-tru ... del/econic

    A truck with decent visibility.

    Am I the only person who feels there must be something wrong with the culture of tipper drivers? Do they bully women in cars as well as on bikes (or anywhere that isn't the kitchen).
    I think they are also paid per load, so there is a financial benefit to driving quickly, and not spending time double checking. Whoever employs trucks on a per load basis has blood on their hands.
  • thistle_
    thistle_ Posts: 7,217
    I sat in the cab of one of Murphy's 'bike friendly' lorries at the NEC Cycle Show. They've fitted a million (well, maybe 10) mirrors to the lorry plus a rear CCTV camera so there are no blind spots. There's no way you can be checking all of them and looking ahead - gives you an impression of how difficult it is to drive.

    Despite being a truck with many mirrors, it didn't have those side bars to stop cyclists going under the wheels if they are hit and if the driver indicates, the lorry shouts to any cyclists that it is about to turn across them and run them over :roll:
    (I'm not sure if it had proximity sensors to tell the driver the cyclist he'd just tried to overtake was still alongside)
  • 16mm
    16mm Posts: 545
    There's no way you can be checking all of them and looking ahead - gives you an impression of how difficult it is to drive.
    There is a financial incentive for not to spend time checking the mirrors when being paid by the load, as I understand most tipper trucks are. They need banning during daytime & a culture change of the employers and drivers for the rest of the time.
  • EKE_38BPM
    EKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    Paying people to deliver stuff by the jobs leads to safety short cuts being taken, be it tipper drivers or cycle couriers.
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  • Agent57
    Agent57 Posts: 2,300
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Agent57 wrote:
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Cyclists need to be aware of how poor the visibility from the cab of a HGV is and NEVER EVER go up the inside of a large vehicle.

    I think "never ever" is OTT. I ride up on the inside of HGVs, but only when I can be certain it's not about to turn (or preferably not about to move). But in certain situations, I don't think it's a problem. I do sit behind them when they're at the front of a queue at lights, mind.
    If you were talking to a novice, would you say "never ever" or that its OK in some circumstances? I'll stick with "never ever" and as they get more experience they'll learn when to break the rules.?

    I'm assuming the audience here is not one of novices, but I understand your point. I'm also really only talking about the case where there's a bike lane to the left, so the driver should expect bikes there. I very seldom ride up the inside of a truck if it's just the gutter - there's usually not enough room anyway, and I'd be more likely to overtake on the outside (so oncoming traffic is the main danger there...).

    I've sat in a truck cab and it's quite an illuminating experience. As much as drivers should have cycle-related training, it'd be great if people who cycle on roads - particularly through town traffic - could all experience the trucker's view first hand.

    I tend to sit on their nearside such that I can see them in the mirror. If I know they've seen me, I might go up on the inside even if the truck's moving. But yeah, I'm confident in traffic, having been cycling in ever-busier conditions for decades. To be quite honest, I do sometimes think I'm over-confident... But, you know, those guys are holding me up FFS!
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  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    That video is a tad worrying. Thanks for sharing.
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  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 59,799
    According to the Beeb: The crash happened at the junction of Camberwell Road and Albany Road in Camberwell just after midday. Collision with a lorry.

    I rode that precise spot on Wednesday and Friday nights last week. There are two lanes heading south on Camberwell Road leading to the lights at the junction with Albany Road. Both very narrow. Left lane is left turn only. ASL at the junction. Far side of the junction narrows to a single lane. Lots of ways to a bad outcome.
    I know that junction well, it's on my regular route in and out (went through tonight about 7.30). Not really given that junction a lot of thought before but definitely will now ! Judging by the picture in the link, looks like the truck had turned left off Camberwell road Southbound onto Albany and had caught the rider on the corner.
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  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    cjcp wrote:
    That video is a tad worrying. Thanks for sharing.

    Worrying, but I don't understand why lorries don't have cameras in the wingmirrors to give a wider angle view. My car has camera's under the wingmirrors for parking which give a birds eye view of the entire side of the car. A decent small camera is £50 these days, so with a monitor and a basic camera either side, cost is likely to be £200 plus fitting.

    They should compel all vehicles 7.5 tonne and over to have camera's fitted. Give them a year to comply. Still doesn't help with foreign lorries but its a start.
  • They can have all the cameras and mirrors in the world but if the driver doesn't look there's no point.
  • jzed
    jzed Posts: 2,926
    They can have all the cameras and mirrors in the world but if the driver doesn't look there's no point.

    True - but that video shows 15 cyclists down the side of the lorry. The driver can look all he wants, short of getting out of his seat and hanging out his passenger window - he won't see them. A simple camera, which is cheap would enable him to see them if he looked.

    Make them compulsory, if a driver doesn't use them, its negligent, at the moment the driver can just say, "how was I meant to see".
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,548
    So BoJo is interviewed and the solution appears to be banning headphones. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24999302
    Is this just one bit the BBC picked up on out of what was otherwise a load of constructive comments? Is he trying to deflect attention away from banning HGVs in rush hour? More victim blaming? Did anyone hear the interview?
  • MartinGT
    MartinGT Posts: 475
    Thanks for sharing the video. Its rather scary and I have sent it onto fellow commuters and shared with the club.

    RIP and stay safe guys.
  • JZed wrote:
    They can have all the cameras and mirrors in the world but if the driver doesn't look there's no point.

    True - but that video shows 15 cyclists down the side of the lorry. The driver can look all he wants, short of getting out of his seat and hanging out his passenger window - he won't see them. A simple camera, which is cheap would enable him to see them if he looked.

    Make them compulsory, if a driver doesn't use them, its negligent, at the moment the driver can just say, "how was I meant to see".

    But if you look carefully, the cab of the lorry is angled relative to the trailer, as if it has just started to turn. Once the cab angles, the nearside mirror gives a view of the side of the trailer rather than what's alongside the trailer. Straighten up the cab and I'd imagine that the view in the mirror should be better.
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  • vermin
    vermin Posts: 1,739
    Veronese68 wrote:
    So BoJo is interviewed and the solution appears to be banning headphones. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24999302
    Is this just one bit the BBC picked up on out of what was otherwise a load of constructive comments? Is he trying to deflect attention away from banning HGVs in rush hour? More victim blaming? Did anyone hear the interview?

    First, RIP this latest and all the other tragic losses.

    In all of this arguing - police targetting helmetless, low-vis cyclists, BoJo talking about headphones, etc on the one hand, vs certain groups of cyclists ranting about their freedoms and liberty - I can't help thinking that, actually, in respect of the vast majority of cycling accidents/incidents in the city, the police/BoJo are in a position of far better knowledge as to their causation and as to how they might have been avoided than the average ranting cyclist.

    The current traffic situation is what it is - whilst, with the right will, it can be changed, with the best will in the world it can't be changed overnight. I believe that the advice given by the police/BoJo (occassionally) is sensible and might go some way towards mitigating the damage that will continue until change can be made.

    In the meantime, bring on the Liverpool cyclepaths in the sky!
  • Veronese68 wrote:
    So BoJo is interviewed and the solution appears to be banning headphones. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24999302
    Is this just one bit the BBC picked up on out of what was otherwise a load of constructive comments? Is he trying to deflect attention away from banning HGVs in rush hour? More victim blaming? Did anyone hear the interview?

    However, if you follow one of the links:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24987425

    You get a much more balanced argument... "Is cycling getting more or less dangerous?"
    <snip>As well as a healthier budget, cyclists in the Netherlands may also benefit from an effect known as "Smeed's Law" or "Safety in Numbers". In 1949 RJ Smeed, a British statistician, argued that as traffic density increased, motoring deaths would fall in relation to the number of vehicles on the road.

    Many argue that the theory has borne out for cyclists, too, linking the Netherlands' impressive safety record with its high proportion of cyclists.

    If the sheer number of cyclists increases, the theory suggests, motorists will be more likely to adjust their driving to accommodate them.
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  • I found myself sandwiched between a coach and a Lorry earlier this morning by Brighton Pier...
    I was dumbstruck as to how the Lorry driver hadn't seen me.

    Luckily I was aware enough to anticipate it happening so had slowed.
    Scary.