Cancellara contre la montre for the hour record

RichN95.

Yellow Peril wrote:

Slightly off topic but does Armstrong's ban also include WR attempts? If not I'm sure his ego would still love a crack at this.

It would never be an official record as it needs to be ratified by UCI commisaires - and they won't turn up. There's nothing to stop him renting out a track and having a go though - same as any of us.

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Slightly off topic but does Armstrong's ban also include WR attempts? If not I'm sure his ego would still love a crack at this.

It would never be an official record as it needs to be ratified by UCI commisaires - and they won't turn up. There's nothing to stop him renting out a track and having a go though - same as any of us.

Yeah, a spinning instructor in Italy did just that... he did 39.8 Km, which isn't a bad effort, but then again, lots of people can do that... basically anyone who can do a 25 TT in under an hour with a road bike

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Slightly off topic but does Armstrong's ban also include WR attempts? If not I'm sure his ego would still love a crack at this.

It would never be an official record as it needs to be ratified by UCI commisaires - and they won't turn up. There's nothing to stop him renting out a track and having a go though - same as any of us.

Yeah, a spinning instructor in Italy did just that... he did 39.8 Km, which isn't a bad effort, but then again, lots of people can do that... basically anyone who can do a 25 TT in under an hour with a road bike

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Slightly off topic but does Armstrong's ban also include WR attempts? If not I'm sure his ego would still love a crack at this.

It would never be an official record as it needs to be ratified by UCI commisaires - and they won't turn up. There's nothing to stop him renting out a track and having a go though - same as any of us.

Yeah, a spinning instructor in Italy did just that... he did 39.8 Km, which isn't a bad effort, but then again, lots of people can do that... basically anyone who can do a 25 TT in under an hour with a road bike

blazing_saddles

Pross wrote:

Be good to see a few riders having a crack at it on the same day! Shame it can't be incorporated into the World track champs.

My butt hurts just at the thought of it.

FJS

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meesterbond wrote:

If they want to capitalise on this then try and persuade Wiggins, Martin and Cancellara to all have a go. Same time, three locations (London, Grenchen and wherever Tony M fancies), big screen simulcast, proper TV deal. Make a proper spectacle out of it.

Someone get me Cookson's number.

That would be epic... although I think it requires a lot of preparation and it's hard to get more than one man at 100% on the same day. There might also be rules preventing it... from the film about Obree I seem to recall you've got 24 hours to try, which means you can try more than once, or something like that

Or, if only two of them are up for it, do it as a pursuit :twisted: . Now that is something I'd go to a track for to see.

All the blue sky apart, great thing Cancellara's going for it. I've got a feeling that this actually reduces the chances of Wiggo having a go at it

Richmond Racer

Hmmm

so far from Guercilena, we've had:

its on
its not on so much any more
its on

not holding me breath

Moontrane

meesterbond wrote:

If they want to capitalise on this then try and persuade Wiggins, Martin and Cancellara to all have a go. Same time, three locations (London, Grenchen and wherever Tony M fancies), big screen simulcast, proper TV deal. Make a proper spectacle out of it.

Someone get me Cookson's number.

This. 8)

thomthom

Martin is game.

That's the real news in this.


http://cyclingquotes.com/news/tony_mart ... d_attempt/

Richmond Racer

Richmond Racer wrote:

Hmmm

so far from Guercilena, we've had:

its on
its not on so much any more
its on

not holding me breath

Following on...
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/ro ... rd-attempt

I'll believe it when he's lined up on the start line

ddraver

you and me both RR...

Paul 8v

meesterbond wrote:

If they want to capitalise on this then try and persuade Wiggins, Martin and Cancellara to all have a go. Same time, three locations (London, Grenchen and wherever Tony M fancies), big screen simulcast, proper TV deal. Make a proper spectacle out of it.

Someone get me Cookson's number.

Now THAT would be a show!

RichN95.

madasahattersley wrote:

Cancellara of recent years has been desperate to make it big on the road. When he won the world TT champs 6 times, along with every other major time trial going I imagine he decided that it was time to start winning out on the road. As I'm sure you know it's impossible to be at the top of your game in both time trialling and road racing, as they're completely different races. Tony Martin is an example of somebody who really dedicates themselves to being a TT specialist.

I'm not sure about that. He won Paris-Roubaix before he was ever World TT champion. He won four monuments in the years he was winning World & Olympic TTs. I think it's more that he has less interest in time trialling now so doesn't bother with it as much.

RichN95.

madasahattersley wrote:

When he won them before though he just used his time trialling abilities to win solo - not something you can do very often and definitely doesn't get you many wins. Does work in some classics though I'll admit

It's the way he has to win, though. He's not going to outsprint Sagan and Boonen. He didn't even outsprint Gerrans.

Richmond Racer

I think his time as THE dominant tester is behind him whatever happens. We're well into the Tony Martin era, with interruptions from Brad Wiggins, and I think that would remain the case even if Cancellara were to change his focus. Cant be top dog for ever

rick_chasey

Disagree.

If Canc had put his mind to TTing the last couple of years he'd have won everything.

He has made it quite clear he has no interest in training for TTs and so doesn't. Given he can still get a bronze at the Worlds having done no prep for it at all and instead focussed entirely on road course that didn't even suit him shows how good he is.

rick_chasey

I reckon Wiggins was on very similar form during Mendriso as in Florence and well, the difference was huuuge.

Monty Dog

I don't think Cancellara has enough track experience and he relies too much on raw power rather than efficiency - he's quite heavy and have many have said, overcoming the angular forces on the bends is much a challenge as covering the distances given the speeds involved.

knedlicky

Monty Dog wrote:

... overcoming the angular forces on the bends is much a challenge as covering the distances given the speeds involved.

The important thing going around the bends is the smoothest possible transition in and out of them, so that riders keep momentum without efficiency loss, and the velodrome at Grenchen is supposed to have smoother transitions than any other velodrome so far.

Grenchen hopes to be the fastest velodrome due to other features which have been given less or no importance elsewhere, e.g. air changes in the velodrome circulate very slightly anticlockwise, so in the same direction as cyclists ride (thus minimal air resistance).
Also (although it almost sounds like superstition), the wooden boards are laid so that riders will always ride a board ‘down the tree’. The designer believes the grain on the wood does play a role in influencing energy output when ridden over many times with intensity (so like in an attempt at the hour record).

I imagine Cancellara isn't committing himself to when he might try for the hour-record until he's heard more about how fast Grenchen might be, because it would be expected from several sides that he makes his attempt there.

In case the wood type of the boards also plays a role, Sosenka did his record on larch, London has pine and Grenchen has fir or spruce.
I'd guess wood type does play a role, for the right degree of traction (walnut wouldn't provide enough, teak too much). The above velodrome choices are all softwoods and also cheaper than hardwoods, but not necessarily the ideal surfacing for the fastest track, if one has the money to do the research.

RichN95.

madasahattersley wrote:

Why don't the UCI standardise it all to the same velodrome that Merckx used?

Because they're not idiots. If you really want to consign the record to the dustbin of history then insisting everyone has to do it on a crumbling velodrome in Mexico City is a pretty efficient way to do it.

RichN95.

madasahattersley wrote:

All of the technology with the new super fast velodrome designs is taking away from the fact that it's still supposed to be the athlete's record. You may as well forget Merckx and anyone else who has ever attempted it if they're going to such great lengths to make sure they have an advantage other than a faster pair of legs.

In that case you may as well make all the same restrictions that Merckx had. Let's limit challengers to foods available at the time. Sports scientists will be banned. So will any recommendations about pacing. Everything has to be done at altitude like Merckx too. And what about the season - Merckx had done (and won) the Giro and Tour that year. Let's make sure all challengers do that first.
Unless you want to kill the idea of the record you need to be reasonable.

ugo.santalucia

Looking back, it was a big mistake not to allow new bike designs... there was a time when the competition was thriving (Moser, then Boardman, Obree... ) and manufacturers were interested in the Hour record. Then they went back to the middle ages and nobody has bothered with it. It's time to revise the rules... it's irrelevant if Cancellara is faster than Merckx with the same setup, this is about human effort... how fast a man can go simply propelled by his own legs. We don't need to know if the new specimen of human race is faster than the old specimen. As long as the bike resembles a bike used in PRO races (in that it has two wheels and the rider is sitting upright) I am game for everything. I would not allow recumbent and such, as I don't think top riders would bother to learn how to go fast on one of them, so the competition would be at a dead end

No_Ta_Doctor

madasahattersley wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Why don't the UCI standardise it all to the same velodrome that Merckx used?

Because they're not idiots. If you really want to consign the record to the dustbin of history then insisting everyone has to do it on a crumbling velodrome in Mexico City is a pretty efficient way to do it.

All of the technology with the new super fast velodrome designs is taking away from the fact that it's still supposed to be the athlete's record. You may as well forget Merckx and anyone else who has ever attempted it if they're going to such great lengths to make sure they have an advantage other than a faster pair of legs.

Why pick Merckx? There have been plenty of hour records previous to his, most of which would have had a technological disadvantage to Merckx. It's entirely arbitrary.

No_Ta_Doctor

madasahattersley wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Why don't the UCI standardise it all to the same velodrome that Merckx used?

Because they're not idiots. If you really want to consign the record to the dustbin of history then insisting everyone has to do it on a crumbling velodrome in Mexico City is a pretty efficient way to do it.

All of the technology with the new super fast velodrome designs is taking away from the fact that it's still supposed to be the athlete's record. You may as well forget Merckx and anyone else who has ever attempted it if they're going to such great lengths to make sure they have an advantage other than a faster pair of legs.

Why pick Merckx? There have been plenty of hour records previous to his, most of which would have had a technological disadvantage to Merckx. It's entirely arbitrary.

Because he's the UCI's benchmark:

the UCI Hour Record (which restricts competitors to roughly the same equipment as Merckx, disallowing time trial helmets, disc or tri-spoke wheels, aerodynamic bars and monocoque frames)

I know he is, but it's entirely arbitrary. Exactly how arbitrary is revealed by the suggestion that velodromes should also be standardised to Merckx's Mexico record. Merckx sought out an advantage at Mexcio, but anyone after him can't do the same.

No_Ta_Doctor

madasahattersley wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Why don't the UCI standardise it all to the same velodrome that Merckx used?

Because they're not idiots. If you really want to consign the record to the dustbin of history then insisting everyone has to do it on a crumbling velodrome in Mexico City is a pretty efficient way to do it.

All of the technology with the new super fast velodrome designs is taking away from the fact that it's still supposed to be the athlete's record. You may as well forget Merckx and anyone else who has ever attempted it if they're going to such great lengths to make sure they have an advantage other than a faster pair of legs.

Why pick Merckx? There have been plenty of hour records previous to his, most of which would have had a technological disadvantage to Merckx. It's entirely arbitrary.

Because he's the UCI's benchmark:

the UCI Hour Record (which restricts competitors to roughly the same equipment as Merckx, disallowing time trial helmets, disc or tri-spoke wheels, aerodynamic bars and monocoque frames)

I know he is, but it's entirely arbitrary. Exactly how arbitrary is revealed by the suggestion that velodromes should also be standardised to Merckx's Mexico record. Merckx sought out an advantage at Mexcio, but anyone after him can't do the same.

True, I just don't think that making sure engineering every detail of the track, materials used, building design etc to be as quick as possible is right. The idea is purely a test of the riders ability to ride as far as possible in an hour. If technological advances are allowed then how can Merckx's record possibly stand the test of time?

The problem here is your perception of what the hour record is. It isn't, and has never been,

purely a test of the riders ability to ride as far as possible in an hour

. There has always, and will always be, a technological context to it. That was true for Merckx, and all those that came before him, as well.

mfin

madasahattersley wrote:

True, I just don't think that making sure engineering every detail of the track, materials used, building design etc to be as quick as possible is right. The idea is purely a test of the riders ability to ride as far as possible in an hour. If technological advances are allowed then how can Merckx's record possibly stand the test of time?

You're right about the same track, in fact, they should have to use Merckx's exact bike, and they should be the exact same age as Eddy, wear the actual clothes that Eddy was wearing, same shoes, pedals and toeclips, have done the same mileage of racing and training leading up to it, and they should wear his helmet with the same amount of hair poking out.

Of course, also in preparation they should not be allowed any technology invented past 1972, so no emailing to organise anything or to get advice or communicate about training plans and certainly no watching VHS sufferfests on the turbo as VHS wasn't invented yet, or space dust.

mfin

madasahattersley wrote:

mfin wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

True, I just don't think that making sure engineering every detail of the track, materials used, building design etc to be as quick as possible is right. The idea is purely a test of the riders ability to ride as far as possible in an hour. If technological advances are allowed then how can Merckx's record possibly stand the test of time?

You're right about the same track, in fact, they should have to use Merckx's exact bike, and they should be the exact same age as Eddy, wear the actual clothes that Eddy was wearing, same shoes, pedals and toeclips, have done the same mileage of racing and training leading up to it, and they should wear his helmet with the same amount of hair poking out.

Of course, also in preparation they should not be allowed any technology invented past 1972, so no emailing to organise anything or to get advice or communicate about training plans and certainly no watching VHS sufferfests on the turbo as VHS wasn't invented yet, or space dust.

Trying to find that funny, but it just 'aint

Well, there are so many other things that would need to be equal that it's not worth limiting it to being attempted on the same track, let alone that that particular track cannot be the same itself 41 years later. It was just way of pointing out how little it been thought through by equal absurdity.

Daz555

madasahattersley wrote:

True, I just don't think that making sure engineering every detail of the track, materials used, building design etc to be as quick as possible is right. The idea is purely a test of the riders ability to ride as far as possible in an hour. If technological advances are allowed then how can Merckx's record possibly stand the test of time?

If we assume safety is first, what other criteria should be used to design a track?

Besides, tracks are not built for the 1hr record. Well I'm not aware of one that was, anyway.

inseine

mfin wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

mfin wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

True, I just don't think that making sure engineering every detail of the track, materials used, building design etc to be as quick as possible is right. The idea is purely a test of the riders ability to ride as far as possible in an hour. If technological advances are allowed then how can Merckx's record possibly stand the test of time?

You're right about the same track, in fact, they should have to use Merckx's exact bike, and they should be the exact same age as Eddy, wear the actual clothes that Eddy was wearing, same shoes, pedals and toeclips, have done the same mileage of racing and training leading up to it, and they should wear his helmet with the same amount of hair poking out.

Of course, also in preparation they should not be allowed any technology invented past 1972, so no emailing to organise anything or to get advice or communicate about training plans and certainly no watching VHS sufferfests on the turbo as VHS wasn't invented yet, or space dust.

Trying to find that funny, but it just 'aint

Well, there are so many other things that would need to be equal that it's not worth limiting it to being attempted on the same track, let alone that that particular track cannot be the same itself 41 years later. It was just way of pointing out how little it been thought through by equal absurdity.

Maybe riders having a crack at it now should be allowed a bit of Merckx type "assistance' too. Level playing field and all that.

Yellow Peril

Surely anything that qualifies for UCI Track use at the Worlds should be allowed. They've reigned the bikes in since Boardman's pursuiting days and they are at least bike shaped again.