Gatorskin or 4Season

mattyarse

I am struggling to decide on what to replace the stock tyres that came with my bike (Yaw Nitro).

I guess I want what everyone wants which is the best of all worlds that probably doesn't exist: a fast, light puncture resistant grippy tyre. :roll:

On this basis I have a pair of Conti GP4000s to fit from Wiggle, but this thread has made me question myself. My logic was that according to what I understand TPI / Threads per inch is an indication of puncture resistance. Is this true?

GP4000s / 205g / 330 TPI

Gatorskin / 220g / 180 TPI

4 Season / 230g / 330 TPI (actually wiggle site also quotes 430 TPI?)

So on that basis (given price wise they are all pretty similar) my logic was why not go with the GP4000s as it is the lightest, and has greater TPI that the Gatorskins?

Now I suspect that I am badly missing something here (or the data supplied is incorrect which obviously throws the logic applied out of the window).

My riding is solo, early in the morning (e.g. in darkness before work) and so punctures are about as popular as a pork pie at a bar mitzvah, but I don't want to over do the puncture protection bit if it makes a dramatic difference to performance.

I am probably over analysing it, and someone will tell me that my current tyres are essentially bullet proof but made of lead, and so any of the above would be an improvement, but if GP4000s are a silly gamble then I'd rather avoid that and just play safe with Gatorskins or 4 Seasons.

Any advice gratefully received.

(PS Sorry for the slight threadjack but I figured anyone else reading with interest in tyre selection may find the answers / guidance of value to).

ugo.santalucia

The TPI gives you the quality of the tyre thread and from there you already see that the Gatorskin is inferior to the rest of the range

bobones

mattyarse wrote:

I am struggling to decide on what to replace the stock tyres that came with my bike (Yaw Nitro).

I guess I want what everyone wants which is the best of all worlds that probably doesn't exist: a fast, light puncture resistant grippy tyre. :roll:

On this basis I have a pair of Conti GP4000s to fit from Wiggle, but this thread has made me question myself. My logic was that according to what I understand TPI / Threads per inch is an indication of puncture resistance. Is this true?

GP4000s / 205g / 330 TPI

Gatorskin / 220g / 180 TPI

4 Season / 230g / 330 TPI (actually wiggle site also quotes 430 TPI?)

So on that basis (given price wise they are all pretty similar) my logic was why not go with the GP4000s as it is the lightest, and has greater TPI that the Gatorskins?

Now I suspect that I am badly missing something here (or the data supplied is incorrect which obviously throws the logic applied out of the window).

My riding is solo, early in the morning (e.g. in darkness before work) and so punctures are about as popular as a pork pie at a bar mitzvah, but I don't want to over do the puncture protection bit if it makes a dramatic difference to performance.

I am probably over analysing it, and someone will tell me that my current tyres are essentially bullet proof but made of lead, and so any of the above would be an improvement, but if GP4000s are a silly gamble then I'd rather avoid that and just play safe with Gatorskins or 4 Seasons.

Any advice gratefully received.

(PS Sorry for the slight threadjack but I figured anyone else reading with interest in tyre selection may find the answers / guidance of value to).

I've just replaced GP4000s on my winter bike after 4800 miles. I had no cuts and only 2 or 3 punctures over the course of a couple of years. The tyre wear indicator is still clearly visible on both tyres so there is still plenty of life in them. I only changed them because I had a new pair of Grand Prix 24 lying around that I got cheap and I didn't want to push my luck over the coming winter because surely they're getting a bit thin despite what the TWI says?

I've had Gatorskins in the past and they were pretty rubbish to be honest: weak side walls and overrated puncture protection. I've never ridden GP 4 Seasons, but with the good luck I've had with GP4000s and the great ride quality and durability, I don't see why I'd need to get anything else. Plenty of others rate the GP4000s as a great all year round tyre.

charlie_potatoes

mattyarse wrote:

Any advice gratefully received.
.

IME the GP4000s are great in the summer but I find that they cut up in the winter so I use the 4 seasons.
Just refitted them and don't expect to change back until sometime in march.

gozzy

plumpy wrote:

Ou sont les Michelin Krylion Carbons d'antan? As Villon would have said if he'd been a cyclist. Perfect winter road tyre, I wish I had laid in a stock of them before Michelin axed them.

I've not worn out my current pair of these yet, not looking forward to having to replace them.

itboffin

I've tried a few and so far found GT best for autumn early winter and 4000s for summer general duties, open corsa CX for mountains and the odd UK sportive, I liked the ZX but they turned out to be just too thin and cracked around the sidewalls.

So far i've used the following ...

Conti:
Gatorskins
Hardshells
GP4000S
GT
Supersonic
Ultra Race
Sports Contact
Ultra Sport

Michelin:
Pro2
Pro3
lithion 2

Schwalbe:
ultremo zx

Vittoria:
Open Corsa CX II
Rubino
Zaffiro

Challenge:
Criterium
Forte

Halo:
Twin Rail Berlin

Bontrager:
(basic cheap yuck)

napoleond

Cracking deal at Planet X at the mo, a pair of Conti Ultrasport and 2 tubes for 20 quid.

Bordersroadie

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The TPI gives you the quality of the tyre thread and from there you already see that the Gatorskin is inferior to the rest of the range

Were it that simple....

In reality, my "superior TPI" GP4seasons, due to their rubber compound (Black Chilli, grippy but soft, to meet the "fast and grippy" design brief) and construction (very thin tread and sidewalls to meet the "lightweight" design brief) are inferior winter tyres on my own local roads, in my extensive experience, than Gatorskin or Hardshells.

Gators (skins/hardshell) may have a lower TPI but they have far superior barriers to cuts/flint/thorn intrusion because their design brief (ie not claiming to be lightweight, fast nor grippy) hasn't been allowed to compromise (their raison d'etre) designed-in puncture resistance, whereas in GP4s it has.

You just need to feel the relative thickness of the treads/sidewalls in each tyre to realise that actually the laws of physics applies, not the laws of marketing acronyms.

smidsy

So there you have it OP, your question answered....buy what the hell you like because none can agree :-)

ugo.santalucia

Bordersroadie wrote:

Gators (skins/hardshell) may have a lower TPI but they have far superior barriers to cuts/flint/thorn intrusion because their design brief (ie not claiming to be lightweight, fast nor grippy) hasn't been allowed to compromise (their raison d'etre) designed-in puncture resistance, whereas in GP4s it has.

My definition of quality in relation to TPI is about the ride quality of a tyre.

Puncture protection doesn't mean a quality tyre. In fact, you can buy a puncture-Proof tyre for 9 quid, but the ride will be crap.
Puncture reistance is not inherently expensive, high TPI is, as it involves the use of thinner thread, which costs more than the thick stuff. It is however stronger (in that can take higher pressure) and a lot more flexible. In the old days it was silk vs cotton, with the former being a far superior thread, now it's all polyesters and nylons, but the same rule apply

marcusjb

smidsy wrote:

So there you have it OP, your question answered....buy what the hell you like because none can agree :-)

Pretty much the truth. Tyre discussions are like brake block ones. Everyone has such wildly different experiences with the same tyres.

Someone will claim 5000miles, no wear, no flats out of tyre XYZ, and someone else will have worn that tyre out in 3.2 miles having had 4 punctures on the journey.

Odd.

canny_lad

MattC59 wrote:

Opinion seems to favor the 4Season over the Gatorskin, but does anyone have any experience of the Grand Prix GT ?

1250 miles so far and like them. Had one flat (big thorn). Run them at 90/95psi F/R and would have them again.

littledove44

Well, I have two sets of tyres. 23mm gp4000s and 25mm four seasons.

No punctures on either so cannot comment on puncture resistance. Even if I had been hit by a flat I am not sure that it really means anything. To be statistically valid surely we need identical sharp stuff and identical conditions and lots of data which one persons experience is not enough.

Speed wise, I am sure the 25mm ones are a little faster. Not much, but it's an issue of downhill confidence rather than flat speed I think.

bisoner

Currently using Gatorskins on my non-wet wheels and Bontrager Hardcase on my 'winter wheels'. I use the Hardcases on the turbo as well and they show no wear from that too. No punctures on either set, so far.

Reason for change is that I've had plenty of punctures over the past 3 months on GP4000's (sidewall), Open Paves (they get ruined too easily in Hampshire by flints) and some Veloflex Masters (summer only for these). The Paves and Masters definitely roll the best. None of these tyres are any good for group riding in the winter.

Not used 4 Seasons but know plenty of people who have. On the whole, they seem reliable and are liked by their users.

Halfords were doing 2 Gators (lighter folding ones) for under £40 recently. As 4 Seasons are around £30 per tyre, I would get Gators if you can get them for a similar price.

Bordersroadie

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bordersroadie wrote:

Gators (skins/hardshell) may have a lower TPI but they have far superior barriers to cuts/flint/thorn intrusion because their design brief (ie not claiming to be lightweight, fast nor grippy) hasn't been allowed to compromise (their raison d'etre) designed-in puncture resistance, whereas in GP4s it has.

My definition of quality in relation to TPI is about the ride quality of a tyre.

Puncture protection doesn't mean a quality tyre. In fact, you can buy a puncture-Proof tyre for 9 quid, but the ride will be crap.
Puncture reistance is not inherently expensive, high TPI is, as it involves the use of thinner thread, which costs more than the thick stuff. It is however stronger (in that can take higher pressure) and a lot more flexible. In the old days it was silk vs cotton, with the former being a far superior thread, now it's all polyesters and nylons, but the same rule apply

Fair enough, we were talking at cross purposes. I'm old enough to remember the silk vs cotton thing, haha!

I use GP4000Ss, GP4S and Gators and certainly the ride quality (and impression of road speed) of the first two is very impressive and the third one is not. Notwithstanding the low TPI count of the carcass of the Gators, though, I think they are a very good quality hardwearing puncture-resistant winter tyre without the compromises of all-out heavyweights like Marathon Plus and various touring tyres.

Like I said before, when it's a dark winter night and I'm changing a tube on a [insert brand and model "fast-rolling comfortable-riding lightweight tyre"] I don't actually give a toss for any of those qualities, I am wishing only that it had puncture resistance above almost everything else. Which is where Gators fit in.

I think our friend above summed it up well which is that we all have our (very real and true) own experiences with tyres/brake blocks or whatever and will pin our loyalty to those brands/models that we have continued faith in.

Sir Velo

As an alternative you could always opt to get a bit more puncture protection in the dark winter commute months by putting some 'stans latex puncture repair' in the tubes then fitting some (say) GP 4000s or similar, then come the spring summer you can always change the tubes if you feel the 'slime' slows you down.

My guess is this will be the best option to avoid a puncture in the cold/wet/dark times but give you a reasonable ride and the option to improve later.

SV

Coach H

At the start of last winter I got a single 4Season to replace a Krylion Carbon with a chunk out of the side wall.
Could have tried the Pro4 Endurance (the supposed Krylion replacement) but these forums were full of reccomendations for the 4Season.

Its OK. Not as high volume (25mm) as the Krylion and ride is noticably worse. If I hadn't been running Krylions for a few years I probably would have thought it was OK but will be going back to Michelin and hoping the Pro4 Endurance is actually a Krylion with different letters printed on it (they certainly look the same).

Gatorskins were on my winter bike when I got it 2nd hand a few years ago and didn't stay on for long (although they didn't puncture in the 200ish miles I rode on them).

IMHO a lot of people posting here probably were not riding when the French manufactured (the first few batches of Far East ones had some quality issues) Krylions where THE winter/training tyre. The only negative was sidewalls that could cut a bit and first fitting on Campag rims were considered too hard for Worlds Strongest Man. If you could go back 5-6 years in the forum archives these threads ended very quickly with a whole raft of people on Krylions. There was nearly a revolution when they became unavailable for a while when Michelin shipped the machines overseas to make room for the (new) Pro3 Race machine in France. Sightings of examples in Decathlon stores (the only place that still had stock for quite a while) resulted in mass stampedes through the store.

If Pro4 Endurance are actually the same I can only think that people have moved on and tried something else because of the branding change (like me).

porker33

In winter I use 4 seasons, they are good rather than great.....For me the let down is the weak side wall....I have somehow managed to crimp the sidewall on 2 different tyres on potholes running around 100psi.....I have never experienced this with any other tyre, only these 4S.

Looking forward to getting back on the 4000S in the summer with their super strong sidewall construction!!!

robbo2011

People really ought to try Schwalbe Duranos (the standard ones not the S or Plus versions)

MattC59

Schwalbe Duranos ?

Edit: posted at the same time as the above

bendertherobot

robbo2011 wrote:

People really ought to try Schwalbe Duranos (the standard ones not the S or Plus versions)

I used to train on the Plus. You lose virtually nothing in speed. Now running vittoria randonneur 32c. Bombproof, comfy, quick and cheap. If you want to do every club run in comfort these cannot be beaten

MaxwellBygraves

Again, sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm looking for 25mm tyres that are puncture resistant above all else.

Been using Gatorskins for a few years, feelings are mixed - cut easily, ride ain't great and average puncture protection.

I'm gonna be riding more this winter, especially during the night, so I need something puncture proof even at the expense of comfort or speed.

I'm thinking Marathon Plus? Anything else?

ugo.santalucia

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Again, sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm looking for 25mm tyres that are puncture resistant above all else.

Been using Gatorskins for a few years, feelings are mixed - cut easily, ride ain't great and average puncture protection.

I'm gonna be riding more this winter, especially during the night, so I need something puncture proof even at the expense of comfort or speed.

I'm thinking Marathon Plus? Anything else?

this

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/vittoria-randonneur-ii-tyre/

itboffin

590g each, that's keep you warm this winter :shock:

robbo2011

with 590g tyres and 36 spoke handbuilt wheels, one would be looking at a 3kg wheelset. it'd be a struggle on anything but flat roads. Still, good training for winter I guess.

bendertherobot

itboffin wrote:

590g each, that's keep you warm this winter :shock:

Far warmer than standing at the roadside with a puncture

itboffin

I ride my halo berlin's with no pump, tube or repair kit - in fact I havent even pumped them up this year

MaxwellBygraves

itboffin wrote:

590g each, that's keep you warm this winter :shock:

Yeah I saw that they were heavy too but they're mainly for riding around unlit country roads at night over winter on my own so weight isn't really an issue. Just need something puncture proof and durable.

But hopefully when I put some lighter tyres back on come spring I'll be flying

mattyarse

After some deliberation I opted for 4 Seasons, and fitted them this afternoon, and thankfully they went on ok without any horror stories. Felt a fair bit lighter than the tyres that came off, but whether that will be noticeable in reality I guess I will see.

Bordersroadie

Well, it just goes to show...after not many miles on my lovely new Gator Hardshells (like Gatorskins but with a thicker tread and more sidewall protection) I drove through some hedge trimmings and got a thorn as hard as a bloody nail and as sharp as a needle right through the thickest, most protected part of the tread, right in the centre.

And it was dark. And raining. Of course.

When you get a flat like this it makes a mockery of all our deliberating about brand X and Y, TPI or whatever.

Hey ho!