4th cyclist killed on London roads in 8 days

ddraver

In a Dutch system with that much traffic on the roundabout the bikes would be kept totally seperate from the road traffic, total segregation and different traffic signals...think that's the sort of thing it needs really....

redscouse

Gilligan was given the Job by Johnson on the back of the election canpaigns Gilligan ran for him in the Evening Standard.

total dickhead

markhewitt1978

If there was a junction like that near me I wouldn't go anywhere near it on my bike - In fact there *is* a junction like that near me, and I don't go anywhere near it. The addition of cycle lanes without any additional protection is a recipe for disaster.

Crouching Peeky

I use CS2 when I commute to work. The new separated section is very good imo. Although I'm not sure a change to the design of the roundabout or flyover will make too much of a difference as it it just a very, very busy section of road. One of the roundabout exits leads to the Blackwall tunnell, another is one of London's main arterial routes, the A12. Unfortunately it is just a very busy section and has a much higher % of industrial traffic than you would normally see on a London road.
Add in the fact that Stratford to the City is a busy bus route with plenty of buses and you have a recipe for an incredibly dangerous stretch of road.

For me, the only answer is to ban large industrial vehicles from roads during peak periods, lorries should not be sharing the same piece of tarmac as a cyclist.

If I were in charge, I'd go steps further and ban ALL cars from the city of London from 7am to 7pm. Vans would be allowed in, but not cars. The traffic levels during the rush hours now are simply outrageous. The roads aren't capable or designed for the volumes of traffic currently using them during the rush hour. Something has to be done. Unfortunately, a ban on cars is unlikely to win too many votes and therefore will never get done.

markhewitt1978

Crouching Peeky wrote:

If I were in charge, I'd go steps further and ban ALL cars from the city of London from 7am to 7pm. Vans would be allowed in, but not cars. The traffic levels during the rush hours now are simply outrageous. The roads aren't capable or designed for the volumes of traffic currently using them during the rush hour. Something has to be done. Unfortunately, a ban on cars is unlikely to win too many votes and therefore will never get done.

Is that within the congestion charging zone?

Crouching Peeky

No, leads to it. Congestion charge starts from the Aldgate one way system and is the biggest cluster f*ck in road design you ever did see. Dangerous isn't anywhere near a strong enough word. I am honestly surprised there isn't a cyclist killed there each day. It really is frightening. Buses, coaches, lorries, vans the lot trying to squeeze through a gazillion sets of traffic lights. It's around here where the boris biker was killed and near to where the chap was killed last night.

kwi

tiggersnapper wrote:

This will continue until some companies stop pushing their drivers so hard.

Or additionally some leeway is allowed for holdups[/quote]
It's already there, just not used much as it has to be taken back at some point. When I was driving I got a bolloxing for being late back one night, until I pointed out my last 120 mile journey was on A roads and I stuck to the speed limit of 40MPH. (Ended up leaving that company as they kept sending us out over weight.)

lakesluddite

sswiss wrote:

RiderUk wrote:

Just seen this report of yet another fatality.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942

...just read that...wtf

"He added that there were 69 pedestrian deaths last year but that pedestrians do not have as strong a voice in the media."

what has that got to do with it, Gilligan is a tw*t....it's OK it's only 12 now not 69 yet!!! - any death is a tragedy....idiot...should be sacked!

I was just about to highlight that if somebody else hadn't. Made my flaming blood boil - and this guy is supposed to be the f*****g Cycling Commissioner!!

Pross

ddraver wrote:

Ed-tron wrote:

Good stuff.

If you go into street view this neatly shows the problem

A beginner cyclist who is not as au fait with the realities of cycling as us would be following the blue paint that you can see here

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bow+Rd,+London+E3,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=51.529685,-0.014473&spn=0.006768,0.018797&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=70.190028,153.984375&geocode=FWRBEgMdO6z__w&hnear=Bow+Rd,+London+E3+2AN,+United+Kingdom&t=m&layer=c&cbll=51.529697,-0.014428&panoid=fHYwXarYn8jYTJilkCo3Yg&cbp=12,330.34,,0,18.56&z=17

Now imagine that there is a lorry turning left as there is here

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bow+Rd,+London+E3,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=51.529632,-0.014623&spn=0.006768,0.018797&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=70.190028,153.984375&geocode=FWRBEgMdO6z__w&hnear=Bow+Rd,+London+E3+2AN,+United+Kingdom&t=m&layer=c&cbll=51.529684,-0.014468&panoid=OxpsVDjnJf8l55lqthAeMQ&cbp=12,329.83,,0,10.28&z=17

A cyclist going straight on should be on the RIGHT hand side of the lorry, in fact they are being herded into the worst possible place. I'm 99% sure that my mother, who is a typical nervous cyclist and my old man who is a lot more streetwise but still not an experienced cyclist - both of whom are medical professionals so far from stupid - would follow the cycle lane into the death zone...

It's a pet hate of mine with on carriageway cycle lanes in urban areas. Basically you are encouraging cyclists to do exactly what they shouldn't be doing and overtaking slow moving / stationery traffic down their left. It causes all sorts of hazards - the left turning vehicle who doesn't expect anything to be there and doesn't look properly before turning, the 'kind hearted' driver who lets someone out of the side road who in turn assumes the route is clear and putting cyclists in an often narrow zone with gullies and debris to cause punctures and falls. And yet this is a facility we are always having forced on us when designing road 'improvements' for developments as part of Councils attempts and improving cycling infrastructure.

I'm currently in a 'debate' with a council over exactly this, they want an on carriageway advisory lane on the left of the road approaching a set of signals. The approach has two traffic lanes of bare minimum width with the left lane being left turn only (into a road that is for buses and service vehicles only) and they are insisting we provide this cycling 'facility' down the left of it. I have suggested that if they consider it essential to have a lane getting cyclists into the ASL then it should be between the left turn and straight ahead lane. Hopefully they will see sense, if not from my comments then when the Road Safety Audit has been completed but otherwise all I can do is put it on record as much as possible so that if the worst comes to the worst at least I cover myself as the designer (I'd much rather design out the obvious problem and save a life / injury if I'm allowed to!).

mlgt

Its really sad to hear another fatality.

Hope everyone stays safe on the roads.

cycleclinic

Cycle lanes in my view cuase more problems than they solve. Cyclist should not be seperated from road traffic, we are road traffic. It is motorist/truck driver than need to slow down in urban areas rather than us move into special lanes.

Remove them all. Cycling is a skill and road craft is something that can be taught. Local councils should be ploughing all the money they have to this no just educating children in schools. £75 million was announced for new cycle lanes e.t.c not for awareness campagin like Think Bike Think Cyclist or something similar and no money for adult cyclist training.

How many know how to filter through traffic safely, navigate mulitlane roads, proper road positioning. All these thing reduce the risk to cyclists and most cyclists do not know how, I see it everyday. So people arround here use the pavements and I live in Suffolk, hardly the busiest place in the world.

I am going to get in touch with the local council I think and local paper. Someone has to start somewhere.

Crouching Peeky

With respect, have you ever cycled on the route in question?

The volume of industrial traffic is very high, cyclists should not be mixing with them. Ever.

ddraver

Trouble is cycleclinic, that is in direct confrontation with the 3 biggest european cycling countries (by which I mean Netherlands, Denmark and Germany - actual number unknown).

In the countryside you can be more French (ie respect) but you ll notice that very few people cycle in french cities

Pross

ddraver wrote:

Trouble is cycleclinic, that is in direct confrontation with the 3 biggest european cycling countries (by which I mean Netherlands, Denmark and Germany - actual number unknown).

In the countryside you can be more French (ie respect) but you ll notice that very few people cycle in french cities

But in Denmark and the Netherlands the 'education' side of things is already taken care of over generations (don't know about Germany). People understand cycling, it is understood as being just another legitimate form of transport with people not even feeling the need to wear any 'special' clothing to get on their bike. Therefore the rules they have in place such as cycle priority at crossing points are accepted and adhered to meaning cycling is safer whether on the specific, well-engineered cycling infrastructure or when mixing it on the roads with other vehicles.

ugo.santalucia

Maybe they should start patrolling the hot spots... I bet taking a few cops out of their investigations on footballers spitting and racially abusing each other on the pitch could be a relief for their own self esteem

ddraver

Pross wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Trouble is cycleclinic, that is in direct confrontation with the 3 biggest european cycling countries (by which I mean Netherlands, Denmark and Germany - actual number unknown).

In the countryside you can be more French (ie respect) but you ll notice that very few people cycle in french cities

But in Denmark and the Netherlands the 'education' side of things is already taken care of over generations (don't know about Germany). People understand cycling, it is understood as being just another legitimate form of transport with people not even feeling the need to wear any 'special' clothing to get on their bike. Therefore the rules they have in place such as cycle priority at crossing points are accepted and adhered to meaning cycling is safer whether on the specific, well-engineered cycling infrastructure or when mixing it on the roads with other vehicles.

I do find it hard to believe that British motorists would start ploughing through red lights if those lights were red to allow cyclists to cross at a seperate place to be honest...

There is a marked difference between cycling infrastructure in the Dutch countryside and at a busy road junction in a major city. It does nt have to be one size fit's all. Fall foul of the cycling laws in NL and there will be no shortage of drivers telling you to get back on the bike path trust me

cycleclinic

I do not like what the dutch have done as they have seperated two types of traffic that is restricyive, when I am riding I see my self as road traffic and behave appropriatley. What the german's and dutch have done at least is there lane are wide and what they do is move them of road and have good well established prioirty laws at crossing points. The problem we have here is cycle lane have a tendancy to mixed with footpaths and that is bad too as pedestrain do not look were they are going at all and the speed difference is many times the speed difference between cars and bikes in urban areas that is bad thing. Or at worst the lane go on the inside of moving traffic that may want to turn left......

I just look at all the cycle lane in Bury St Edmunds and in other parts of Suffolk, Essex were I ride the most none of them are pleasent to use some go on and off road serval times over a few hundred metres, other are so narrow than you are cycling within 1m of the kerb which is against national standards layed down by the DFT. The focus is aways on deaths in London. We get cyclist killed in Suffolk too and while there may be specific issue with the layout of this lane in London there are many more issues further afield. They need equal attention too.

Cycle lanes if not implemented properly (and they are often not in this country) are a waste of money can in many cases using them increases the risk of accidents, that is my view anyway.

The continual instance from some that cyclists and road traffic need to be seperated is very disheartening. In urban areas motorised traffic needs to slow down and I know that mean it might be pointless driving in urban areas, I feel it already is as the bike is often quicker or as quick (I drive by the way and used to drive alot but no more as the ammount of traffic mean I really do not enoy it any more).

In rural areas dedicated off road cycling lanes connecting towns and villages are not a bad idea I would use those if they were not combined with a footpath and I had to watch out for dog walker standing in the middle chatting to each other and other hazzards like that. There are plenty of footpaths already.

My feeling is cycle lanes are built to give the illusion of safety all to many things we do in life are for the illusion of saftey.

There is no instance that horses should stick to briddleways is there but cyclists we are special and need extra protection don't we.

ddraver

3 deaths at one roundabout caused by the same problem suggests that we do yes....

mididoctors

Ed-tron wrote:

I've never been to this roundabout, but last night on the news I heard reference to further segregated lanes being added recently in the approach to it, which does make the approach road safer...

...but it seems, with cyclists taking the segregated lane on the left, rather than holding a strong defensive position in the main road, you are more likely to be ejected out on to the roundabout on the wrong side of turning traffic - so compounding the problem

basically you have it right.... the blue lane should be in the center lane if anywhere... more so because there is no left turn for cyclists anyway

cycleclinic

3 deaths on one roundabout would indicate we do not need the proctection of the cycle as it is. So quite the reverse really.

Cyclists should design cycle routes but they don't. Here is suffolk the road safety team at the council cycle alot and know how to ride properly they teach these skills but do they get consulted on new cycle lanes and there input used - of course not that would be sensible.

This is why when I see a cycle lane I do not use them I ride in the way I think is best and safest for me which invariably mean avoiding them like the plauge.

ddraver

So what are people who aren't as kick ads awesome ad you supposed to do. People like your kids, your mother etc. Is cycling forever going to be beyond them?