4th cyclist killed on London roads in 8 days

AdrianStuart
AdrianStuart Posts: 140
edited November 2013 in Road general
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24925390

:( Very sad indeed. Struggling to see a solution to lower these deaths. With more cyclists appearing surely the number is only going up.
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Comments

  • Going by that report most if not all of them invloved a bus or truck of some sort. Is it down to there visibility or are the majority of cyclists taking avoidable risks. Either way something needs done.
  • Not in london, but my experiences of buses and smaller lorries is that they do have a habit of aggressive driving, particularly obvious deliberate close passes on cyclists (to the point of pulling further from the kerb once past the cyclist).
    There's also a definite propensity to pull back across as soon as the cab is past the cyclist, forgetting about the 10-15 feet more, followed by a trailer that is still to pass the cyclist.
    I'd like to see them taken from their cabs and shot in front of their families.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,440
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24925390

    :( Very sad indeed. Struggling to see a solution to lower these deaths. With more cyclists appearing surely the number is only going up.

    Based on countries with high rates of cycling then rates should actually come down (but then those countries generally have better infrastructure).
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,440
    It's strange how you get clusters - that's 4 in 8 days in London whilst there had been 8 in the previous 10 months of this year.
  • Pross wrote:
    It's strange how you get clusters - that's 4 in 8 days in London whilst there had been 8 in the previous 10 months of this year.

    Ah, no, that's normal, similar events tend to cluster even in statistical models... I think there is a cluster theory of some sorts
    Look at plane crashes, same thing...
    left the forum March 2023
  • Is there not usually a bit of a spike in road incidents in the few weeks after the clocks go back?

    Up here in Kendal (population ~20k) we've had 6 serious accidents in the space of a couple of weeks. Three separate incidents involving school children in one day. One resulted in some nifty flying from the Great North Air Ambulance, landing on a cycle path on a bridge about a foot wider than the actual helicopter.
  • It's hard to say without speculating. I have seen some awful manoeuvres by cyclists along the inside of lorries, but have equally seen some awful driving.

    The crux of it is that we need better cycling infrastructure.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    lewiskinch wrote:
    The crux of it is that we need better cycling infrastructure.

    No, IMHO the crux of it is we need drivers to be more aware and cyclists not to take silly/dangerous manoeuvres. Isolating cyclists from the rest of the traffic works where the isolation takes place, but then makes the vulnerability worse where isolation cannot exist as drivers and cyclists will have less experience of interacting with each other.

    Although I read that the chap under a bus could've been a result of a heart attack (the chap on the bike) - which really you're not going to be able to do much about and could be a genuine no fault accident.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,440
    Slowbike wrote:
    lewiskinch wrote:
    The crux of it is that we need better cycling infrastructure.

    No, IMHO the crux of it is we need drivers to be more aware and cyclists not to take silly/dangerous manoeuvres. Isolating cyclists from the rest of the traffic works where the isolation takes place, but then makes the vulnerability worse where isolation cannot exist as drivers and cyclists will have less experience of interacting with each other.

    Yep, spot on.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,383
    hmm, dunno. Someone tweeted a picture of that section of the Bow Roundabout and it is flaming obvious what the problem is. It is a terrible bit of design that takes into account nothing of how cyclists need to ride in traffic

    I can't find the fliping photo now!!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    lewiskinch wrote:
    The crux of it is that we need better cycling infrastructure.

    No, IMHO the crux of it is we need drivers to be more aware and cyclists not to take silly/dangerous manoeuvres. Isolating cyclists from the rest of the traffic works where the isolation takes place, but then makes the vulnerability worse where isolation cannot exist as drivers and cyclists will have less experience of interacting with each other.

    Yep, spot on.

    +1
  • From what I've read in newspapers, almost all cyclist deaths in London over the past couple of years have involved lorries, often tippers and the like. They have huge blind spots and with so many wheels, are unforgiving of anyone who ends up underneath - unlike the incident on Monday evening where bystanders lifted a car off a cyclist and possibly saved her life.

    I suspect any long-term solution to reduce the number of deaths would have to involve a combination of design changes to lorries (such as having the cab much lower down - I presume there's a good reason why it isn't), banning them from certain areas in peak times, improvements to road layouts (including but not limited to segregation, which I agree can be counterproductive in some situations) and education of all road users. The last of these is probably the easiest in theory and the hardest in practice, because it relies on people taking personal responsibility and that's never an easy message to sell.
  • There is also an underlying reason for lorry drivers to appear to be driving aggressively. They have a number of legal restrictions on how long they can drive for in any given stint, any given day etc. Companies look to maximise the productivity of their drivers and often push their days as hard as possible. If they get caught in traffic they have to then drive hard to get back to the depot or risk having to stay out late at best or possibly overnight. Hence they drive to ensure they finish their day. This will continue until some companies stop pushing their drivers so hard.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    ManOfKent wrote:
    The last of these is probably the easiest in theory and the hardest in practice, because it relies on people taking personal responsibility and that's never an easy message to sell.
    Unfortunately it's also the best - because it means the drivers & cyclists involve can take stock of the situation as it develops and understand what to do rather than rely on some gov department dictating what they should do and they then act like zombies with the excuse "the sign said to do that" ...
    This will continue until some companies stop pushing their drivers so hard.
    Or additionally some leeway is allowed for holdups
  • The details never seem to be released as to exactly how these incidents are occurring, however some of the commuter cyclist attitude in London and many towns and cities stinks and is very dangerous.

    Theres a bunch of vids on YouTube of London cyclists darting through traffic and going down the side of buses etc. Many without helmets, others just blindly ignoring the rules of the road.

    I know we are bias on here but cyclists need to be as responsible as any other road user. If they are putting themselves in dangerous situations then the risk level goes up significantly.


    Saying that on a ride this weekend a lorry decided to overtake me near a bend on a narrow B-road and was forced to pull back in as a oncoming car approached. I had to slam on to drop back. If I was a little further ahead he would have pushed me into the side or even worse wiped me out.
    The depot he pulled into was 100m away. ... A he could have waited behind, B he shouldn't have been travelling so fast that he was forced to make a dangerous pass.
  • Ed-tron
    Ed-tron Posts: 165
    I've read a few bits on the problems of the CS2 super cycle lane at Bow Roundabout, but I've never ridden it, and certainly are not that familiar with it. But some lay observations from GoogleMaps Streetview

    1. To start off, this is very narrow for two lanes of traffic. Feels very enclosed, especially with the close curb on either side and bridge infrastructure. Note large bus and HGV if you pan left a bit. Oh, and look, the CS2 'super cycle lane' (aka paint) lying ominously under the bus: http://goo.gl/maps/VAaI3

    2. Now, moving forward to the roundabout. There is little consideration, or space, for cyclists here. Looks very scary IMHO: http://goo.gl/maps/XrxTl

    3. I think this is where at least two of the deaths have occurred, when HGVs turn left. I 'think' (could be wrong) but problems arise where cyclists on the blue CS2 paint get a green light with the other traffic, then proceed forward, but is given a false sense of security being on the blue paint and moving ahead towards the segregated cycle route ahead: http://goo.gl/maps/AJ1NE

    4. So, if you are in the CS2 cycle lane, heading straight over the roundabout, but find your self up the inside of an HGV turning left, you are in trouble if they don't see you.

    Like here, imagine if you are in the CS2 lane, and the yellow HGV is turning left and doesn't see you: http://goo.gl/maps/ElHR0

    Again, shown here (note the ghost bike on the street sign) http://goo.gl/maps/7LXZN

    Or here, if you are up the left hand side of this blue HGV as it turns: http://goo.gl/maps/Vs5hu

    There may be more to it than this, but like this it seems like a death trap, where the proximity and cycling 'infrastructure' contributes to very risky conditions where cyclist are far too exposed and can get squeezed out and cut off.

    I'd avoid this route if possible. Or hold my ground in the middle of the lane, not in CS2, so as not to end up the inside of an HGV that was turning left.

    Thoughts to the friends and family to all those effected.
  • Semantik
    Semantik Posts: 537
    Terrible news.
    What exactly have they done in the capital to make cycling safer there apart from put some blue paint on the road? I don't live there so am curious to know.
    I can tell you what they have done here in Manchester though.
    B*gger all.
  • Ed-tron wrote:
    I've read a few bits on the problems of the CS2 super cycle lane at Bow Roundabout, but I've never ridden it, and certainly are not that familiar with it. But some lay observations from GoogleMaps Streetview

    1. To start off, this is very narrow for two lanes of traffic. Feels very enclosed, especially with the close curb on either side and bridge infrastructure. Note large bus and HGV if you pan left a bit. Oh, and look, the CS2 'super cycle lane' (aka paint) lying ominously under the bus: http://goo.gl/maps/VAaI3

    2. Now, moving forward to the roundabout. There is little consideration, or space, for cyclists here. Looks very scary IMHO: http://goo.gl/maps/XrxTl

    3. I think this is where at least two of the deaths have occurred, when HGVs turn left. I 'think' (could be wrong) but problems arise where cyclists on the blue CS2 paint get a green light with the other traffic, then proceed forward, but is given a false sense of security being on the blue paint and moving ahead towards the segregated cycle route ahead: http://goo.gl/maps/AJ1NE

    4. So, if you are in the CS2 cycle lane, heading straight over the roundabout, but find your self up the inside of an HGV turning left, you are in trouble if they don't see you.

    Like here, imagine if you are in the CS2 lane, and the yellow HGV is turning left and doesn't see you: http://goo.gl/maps/ElHR0

    Again, shown here (note the ghost bike on the street sign) http://goo.gl/maps/7LXZN

    Or here, if you are up the left hand side of this blue HGV as it turns: http://goo.gl/maps/Vs5hu

    There may be more to it than this, but like this it seems like a death trap, where the proximity and cycling 'infrastructure' contributes to very risky conditions where cyclist are far too exposed and can get squeezed out and cut off.

    I'd avoid this route if possible. Or hold my ground in the middle of the lane, not in CS2, so as not to end up the inside of an HGV that was turning left.

    Thoughts to the friends and family to all those effected.


    jeez they could have utilised the massive amount of pavement and widened the road. Classic case of "paint it and they will follow".

    +

    As I said in my last post above - Look at the amateur cyclist negotiating junctions like that .... NO HELMET ON THE CYCLIST ! .. http://goo.gl/maps/nkzNW

    Its not just poor junctions, poor drivers but also poor cycling etiquette that can all add up to accidents like this.
  • What I'm curious about is, with London being the most watched city in the world in terms of surveillance, how none of these incidents have been recorded so the authorities can see what actually happened.
    Rose X-Lite CRS 3100
    Focus Cayo AL
  • Slowbike wrote:
    ManOfKent wrote:
    The last of these is probably the easiest in theory and the hardest in practice, because it relies on people taking personal responsibility and that's never an easy message to sell.
    Unfortunately it's also the best - because it means the drivers & cyclists involve can take stock of the situation as it develops and understand what to do rather than rely on some gov department dictating what they should do and they then act like zombies with the excuse "the sign said to do that" ...
    This will continue until some companies stop pushing their drivers so hard.
    Or additionally some leeway is allowed for holdups
    as a truck driver I agree that some sort of leeway should be given,but VOSA (the guys who enforce the drivers hours rules) will not give a driver any sort of chance at all to try and explain.

    at a random stop one day one of these officers told me I was fine to drive for 4 hrs 30 mins but once I hit 4 hrs 31 mins I was tired and a danger to myself and other road users.

    there does need to be a lot of education between drivers and cyclists and tbh honest there are some bad examples from both sides.bad impatient drivers and cyclists taking some really dumb risks...unbelievable times.

    there should be some sort of extra bit in the driving test now about safety when encountering cyclists and take it from there.

    unfortunately there are just some people out there who just flat out refuse to listen and are that wrapped up in themselves that they don't give a f**k for anyone be it cyclists or pedestrians or other road users.
    Lapierre Aircode 300
    Merida
  • I work in London and have knowledge of this cycle lane, I agree with everything that has been said in this thread but honestly if you have ever witnessed what goes on on this stretch of road I would not be surprised if there was a fatality ever day, they have given the cyclist a sense of security by painting a blue line in the road but you have to share it with heavy goods vehicles and buses which are constantly changing lanes and the fastest form of transport along this road is the bicycle so you get a steady stream of bikes undertaking all other road traffic, you tend to get a lorry or bus coming to a stop and to prevent bikes being sat next to them they attempt to stop this by stopping close to the kerb but you see cyclists scooting in between the gap, this stretch of road is also famous for illegal parking so cyclists have to move out to overtake stationary vehicles straight into the path of whatever is behind them. Whoever chose this route needs their head examined, there are lots of less busy side roads which could have been used and because there are a number of residential areas and schools these roads could have been pedestrianised with cycle lanes. I can't blame drivers in general because if you spend 5 minutes observing this road you will see some extremely foolish manoeuvres by cyclists putting trust in the fact that the lorry or bus will not move whilst you try to fit through the 12" gap.

    Also could somebody explain the sense in leaving an area the width of the road at traffic lights for cyclists to gather whilst the lights are red, then have to attempt to set off at the same speed as the vehicles behind them this is typical of the Aldgate arrangement where there have been numerous serious accidents and a couple of fatalities.

    My opinion is scrap the cycle lane the blue paint means nothing and definitely offers no protection to the cyclists that use it daily, get rid of the dodgy market through Whitechapel that occupies the 10m wide pavement and put the cycle lane away from the traffic, as for Bow roundabout cyclists should be made to mount the pavement before the roundabout and cross the junction with pedestrians under a controlled crossing arrangement, I feel for the families of everyone that has been hurt or killed on this or any route but Boris has got to act quickly on this one or it will happen every day.
  • soslow
    soslow Posts: 46
    [
    I suspect any long-term solution to reduce the number of deaths would have to involve a combination of design changes to lorries (such as having the cab much lower down - I presume there's a good reason why it isn't),

    They could have lower cabs if vehicles are spending there life in an Urban area and designed for that job. However most vehicles are designed for general application for sale through out Europe. Under the cabs are usually engines between 9 and 13 litres. Recent changes in emission laws have increased the need for cooling hence larger gap between engine and cab floor. Long distance vehicle will typically have flat cab floors as driver often live in vehicles for over a week.
    The recent trend for just in time deliveries of major retailers probably does not help with amount of vehicles on the road.
    I think the recent campaigns of getting cyclists in cab trucks is a good idea, perhaps getting drivers on a bike could be as effective
    One day in someone else's shoes ........
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    As sad as this is 4 deaths in 8 days does not mean the roads are more dangerous or less. It is how stats work sometimes there will be a periods of no incidents then all of a sudden several at once. It is random and very tragic bad luck.

    Last night though on the club training run we were all single file on the B1115 and a white Scirrocco over took toward a blind bend and had to stop as car came round the corner. We had to brake the other car had to stop, after that the VW did all again on the next bend coming up. Some drivers just have no patience.

    What is needed is not more bicycle lanes, or seperation of bikes and traffic none of that nonsence but a awareness campaign that will benefit us rural riders as well. There is a think bike campagign for motor bikes but when has there ever been an awarness campaign targeting motorist about being cyclist aware.

    When you see a bike just slow down simple as pretty much all of incidents with cyclists can be avoided by the motorist slowing down treating the cyclist as another bit of traffic as under the highway code that is what we are.

    In reality cyclists riding standards are no better or no worse that the driving standards of motorist we can all find good and bad examples usually in the same driver or cyclist. It would be a long process like the drink drive campaign has been, what is needed is a similar campagin to get motorist to see cyclist as fellow road users that have a right to road space and deserve some patience.

    Rural roads are possibly more hazardous in terms of incident per mile ridden but the incidents are spread over a wider geographical area so draw less attention in the media. The number of club rides I have been on and tractors, car e.t.c come steaming round bend so quickly that if we had been a car there would have been a head on collision. Rather than thanking there lucky stars that us cyclists were not another car and there was no head on they get angry instead!

    That above is the problem many road users (cylists and motorists) do not think about what they are doing and assume they are right when more often than not they are wrong and in some cases both are.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,776
    Education for all....

    On a aside the bow cycle lane is beyond stupid and needs rethinking
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    I did the lorry awareness thing after the RLS100. Even with the new safety mirrors, the blind spots in a tipper truck cab are vast - and that's with me actively looking for the cyclist. Apart from reinforcing the danger of being alongside the cab, it also made me realise how far ahead you have to be before they know you're there. To pick up Luke's analogy, the shooting may stop eventually but for now we need to ride defensively.

    Ultimately most HGV drivers are properly trained, so I think we have to take some responsibility as cyclists to help avoid these (too often fatal) accidents. This is in contrast to minicab drivers (in London, at any rate) most of whom seem to have learned driving from GTA. I give a wide berth to Sharalaxies with minicab roundels in the back window.

    The other point we should make to BoJo is that there is no need for artics inside the M25. Ever. Sharing space with some 19m long, 2.5m monster with rear steer in a London street is just unnecessary. Having one overtake you on a roundabout then turn left as you do, with the trailer describing a different arc to the cab and nowhere to go is not fun.
  • awavey
    awavey Posts: 2,368
    964Cup wrote:
    Ultimately most HGV drivers are properly trained, so I think we have to take some responsibility as cyclists to help avoid these (too often fatal) accidents.

    define properly trained though, it maybe a cliche in the insurance business but "most" truck vs car interface claims, the truck driver is automatically assumed to have been at fault. and if they were that highly trained there wouldnt be youtube footage of a truck merrily convoying it down the A1 with a Renault Clio pinned to the front of it being pushed along sideways at 50mph, or the classic attempt to overtake at 0.001mph faster than the other track whilst attempting to drive up a 1 in 7, I dunno maybe he was worried about losing his KoM. ok two examples a case does not make, but Im not convinced on the properly trained angle much given the free movement of trucks across Europe.

    in anycase for all the its got to be cyclists putting themselves at risk stuff it still doesnt cover the cases where the cyclist was ahead and the truck either attempted to overtake on a left hook, or pulled alongside into an ASL and then into the cyclist, how are you supposed to ride defensively in that case and I thought one of the deaths in London this year happened because the truck just ploughed straight into the back of a cyclist anyway.

    but I dont think its BoJo you need to make the points to, its the road hauliers association who deposited their views on the London assembly that cyclists are persistent law breakers who intimidate truck drivers and should be forced to use segregated cycle lanes or alternate routes and possibly wear helmets, even though a close encounter with a truck a helmet wont do much good, which they actually noted in their statement, they just mentioned as it highlighted the attitude to our own safety we cyclists take... :roll:
  • Just seen this report of yet another fatality.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942
  • sswiss
    sswiss Posts: 354
    RiderUk wrote:
    Just seen this report of yet another fatality.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24936942


    ...just read that...wtf

    "He added that there were 69 pedestrian deaths last year but that pedestrians do not have as strong a voice in the media."

    what has that got to do with it, Gilligan is a tw*t....it's OK it's only 12 now not 69 yet!!! - any death is a tragedy....idiot...should be sacked!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,383
    Ed-tron wrote:
    Good stuff.

    If you go into street view this neatly shows the problem

    A beginner cyclist who is not as au fait with the realities of cycling as us would be following the blue paint that you can see here

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bow+Rd,+London+E3,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=51.529685,-0.014473&spn=0.006768,0.018797&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=70.190028,153.984375&geocode=FWRBEgMdO6z__w&hnear=Bow+Rd,+London+E3+2AN,+United+Kingdom&t=m&layer=c&cbll=51.529697,-0.014428&panoid=fHYwXarYn8jYTJilkCo3Yg&cbp=12,330.34,,0,18.56&z=17

    Now imagine that there is a lorry turning left as there is here

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bow+Rd,+London+E3,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=51.529632,-0.014623&spn=0.006768,0.018797&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=70.190028,153.984375&geocode=FWRBEgMdO6z__w&hnear=Bow+Rd,+London+E3+2AN,+United+Kingdom&t=m&layer=c&cbll=51.529684,-0.014468&panoid=OxpsVDjnJf8l55lqthAeMQ&cbp=12,329.83,,0,10.28&z=17

    A cyclist going straight on should be on the RIGHT hand side of the lorry, in fact they are being herded into the worst possible place. I'm 99% sure that my mother, who is a typical nervous cyclist and my old man who is a lot more streetwise but still not an experienced cyclist - both of whom are medical professionals so far from stupid - would follow the cycle lane into the death zone...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Ed-tron
    Ed-tron Posts: 165
    I've never been to this roundabout, but last night on the news I heard reference to further segregated lanes being added recently in the approach to it, which does make the approach road safer...

    ...but it seems, with cyclists taking the segregated lane on the left, rather than holding a strong defensive position in the main road, you are more likely to be ejected out on to the roundabout on the wrong side of turning traffic - so compounding the problem