Dog Attacks

mamba80

Following the lastest tragedy of a 4yo being killed by the family pet dog, is it not time that all dogs were licenced? not just a paper exercise but a really licence ie checks on the type of dog, family, home enviroment etc - costly perhaps, but funded by the licence fee and would create alot of jobs, all self funding.

Just imagine that foxes or another wild animal killed approx 2 children and 1 adult a year and put another 6000 in hospital ? would society standby and do absolutely nothing about it ?
surely even the most fanatical dog owner can see that this state of affairs cant carry on ?

a bit like child abuse, we just seem to do alot of hand wringing but let it continue subject to another enquiry of course :?

-spider-

In this case, if the dog had been licensed, what would have changed?

arran77

mamba80 wrote:

Just imagine that foxes or another wild animal killed approx 2 children and 1 adult a year and put another 6000 in hospital ?

Perhaps as fox hunting is now illegal, the hunt horses could be handed over to the urban masses and they could use them to hunt domestic dogs instead

daviesee

Working dogs should not be kept in the house.
A Bull Mastiff is a working dog.

Some people have stupid ideas about what is considered to be a pet.

secretsam

Didn't dogs used to be licenced, but it was abandoned as compliance and costs simply didn't stack up? With modern microchips, however, it would be much easier.

Although, as pointed out above, even if the dog were licenced, how would this have helped - other than identifying the owner more clearly.

Pituophis

You are on a complete loser on this subject :roll:
Dogs are part of the family, (he's my best friend!) and most dog owners would rather you and all your family died a tragic and horrific death before anything happened to poor old rover. (Just how we would feel when we think about our children being murdered by their dog :shock: )
Every one of them will tell you that their dog is safe and none aggressive. And if he does bite you, "well he was protecting me, that's what he is there for!"
Standard slogans; "It's not the breed, it's the deed" and "it's not the dogs fault, but the owner".
Asking them how we should punish the owners usually draws a blank

Dogs are nice. Case closed.

daviesee

:roll:
Dogs have been bred to serve a purpose.
Just because you think you have trained Rover doesnt mean that all those genes are removed.
Some dogs are pets.
Some arent.

the playing mantis

Here we go again, base facts are it's certain types of dogs. We all know it. However nice they may be they have it in them as do all breeds, but some can do damage. When was the last time a kid was mauled to death by a setter or spaniel or retreiver?

Cygnus

Here we go again
:roll:

slowbike

Bullmastiff
Dog Breed
The bullmastiff is a large breed of domestic dog. It has a solid build and a short muzzle. The bullmastiff shares the characteristics of Molosser dogs, and was originally developed by 19th-century gamekeepers to guard estates. Wikipedia
Life span: 8 to 10 years
Origin: England
Temperament: Reliable, Devoted, Reserved, Protective, Alert, Docile, Loyal, Calm, Powerful, Courageous, Loving
Height: 64 – 71 cm (At the withers, Adult, Male), 61 – 66 cm (Adult, Female, At the withers)
Mass: 50 – 59 kg (Adult, Male), 45 – 54 kg (Adult, Female)
Colors: Red, Fawn, Brindle

Hmm - reliable, devoted, docile, calm, loving ...

I've faced a BM before - (s)he was fine, but let you know that who was boss ... as an adult with reasonable experience of dogs it didn't matter to me - but I wouldn't want to have found out what would happen if I had threatened any family member ... !

Dogs that are brought up as part of the family are normally protective of their family - but I understand that this BM was brought in just 2 months prior - so I doubt any loyalty would've built up, certainly not with a 4yo - a 4yo won't understand what they're doing and could quite easily wind up an animal without intending too - then the animal reacts - how it reacts depends on it's view of family status.

Bull Mastiff as a pet? Why not - but you need to know what you're doing with them ...

lakesluddite

the playing mantis wrote:

Here we go again, base facts are it's certain types of dogs. We all know it. However nice they may be they have it in them as do all breeds, but some can do damage. When was the last time a kid was mauled to death by a setter or spaniel or retreiver?

Exactly, there are breeds out there that hardly even bark let alone become aggressive. I just don't understand this explosion in the ownership of this type of dog, one that has the strength and potential to do real damage to an adult, let alone a toddler.

Is it just a status symbol? Hard man hard dog? Do people genuinely prefer this type of dog over, for example, a Border Collie for any other reason?

Plus...they're all f**k ugly.

metronome

Not very fair to tar all working dogs as being unsuitable in the home. Boarder Collies are awesome and make for great dogs.

the playing mantis

Slowbike wrote:

Bullmastiff
Dog Breed
The bullmastiff is a large breed of domestic dog. It has a solid build and a short muzzle. The bullmastiff shares the characteristics of Molosser dogs, and was originally developed by 19th-century gamekeepers to guard estates. Wikipedia
Life span: 8 to 10 years
Origin: England
Temperament: Reliable, Devoted, Reserved, Protective, Alert, Docile, Loyal, Calm, Powerful, Courageous, Loving
Height: 64 – 71 cm (At the withers, Adult, Male), 61 – 66 cm (Adult, Female, At the withers)
Mass: 50 – 59 kg (Adult, Male), 45 – 54 kg (Adult, Female)
Colors: Red, Fawn, Brindle

Hmm - reliable, devoted, docile, calm, loving ...

I've faced a BM before - (s)he was fine, but let you know that who was boss ... as an adult with reasonable experience of dogs it didn't matter to me - but I wouldn't want to have found out what would happen if I had threatened any family member ... !

Dogs that are brought up as part of the family are normally protective of their family - but I understand that this BM was brought in just 2 months prior - so I doubt any loyalty would've built up, certainly not with a 4yo - a 4yo won't understand what they're doing and could quite easily wind up an animal without intending too - then the animal reacts - how it reacts depends on it's view of family status.

Bull Mastiff as a pet? Why not - but you need to know what you're doing with them ...

Irregardless of the breed characteristics, they are big, strong, have big jaws and were initially bred to do damage to something, as such they are more likely to turn than a breed without those traits

Edit, get rid of these breeds as pets, unfair or not, and I suspect99% of incidents like this will disappear

daviesee

Slowbike wrote:

Bullmastiff
Dog Breed
The bullmastiff is a large breed of domestic dog. It has a solid build and a short muzzle. The bullmastiff shares the characteristics of Molosser dogs, and was originally developed by 19th-century gamekeepers to guard estates. Wikipedia
Life span: 8 to 10 years
Origin: England
Temperament: Reliable, Devoted, Reserved, Protective, Alert, Docile, Loyal, Calm, Powerful, Courageous, Loving
Height: 64 – 71 cm (At the withers, Adult, Male), 61 – 66 cm (Adult, Female, At the withers)
Mass: 50 – 59 kg (Adult, Male), 45 – 54 kg (Adult, Female)
Colors: Red, Fawn, Brindle

Hmm - reliable, devoted, docile, calm, loving ...

I've faced a BM before - (s)he was fine, but let you know that who was boss ... as an adult with reasonable experience of dogs it didn't matter to me - but I wouldn't want to have found out what would happen if I had threatened any family member ... !

Dogs that are brought up as part of the family are normally protective of their family - but I understand that this BM was brought in just 2 months prior - so I doubt any loyalty would've built up, certainly not with a 4yo - a 4yo won't understand what they're doing and could quite easily wind up an animal without intending too - then the animal reacts - how it reacts depends on it's view of family status.

Bull Mastiff as a pet? Why not - but you need to know what you're doing with them ...

Neatly avoiding the main part.
Depends on who they think they are protecting.
Disclosure:- I was chased by one for the simple act of cycling past so I am biased. I was also bitten in the face as a teenager by the Alsatian that was our family pet, and my protector as a child.
You may have upmost trust. I dont.

slowbike

daviesee wrote:

You may have upmost trust. I dont.

Not at all - I have trusted dogs, but they were well known to me and I to them. Dogs I don't know are dealt with a huge amount of scepticism and for the BM I met - respect.

I stand by my view that many, if not most dogs can be good, reliable family pets - but generally only if they're fully integrated into the family and everyone knows their place (both the dog and other family members)

daviesee

Slowbike wrote:

I stand by my view that many, if not most dogs can be good, reliable family pets - but generally only if they're fully integrated into the family and everyone knows their place (both the dog and other family members)

Thats what I thought.
Up until our pet Alsatian bit me.
I learned my lesson the hard way. Others have. And others will.

seanoconn

I've been bitten twice by my own soppy dog (now deceased) once was an accident. And once by an Alsation, who apparently never normally bites people.

I like dogs but will always put myself between any dog capable of harm and my loved ones.

rjsterry

Dogs are animals, and animals can not be relied upon, whatever their normal temperament. Even a hamster or gerbil will bite a chunk out of your finger in the right (wrong) circumstances. The only difference is that some dogs have been bred to have the jaws and strength capable of inflicting serious injury.

slowbike

daviesee wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I stand by my view that many, if not most dogs can be good, reliable family pets - but generally only if they're fully integrated into the family and everyone knows their place (both the dog and other family members)

Thats what I thought.
Up until our pet Alsatian bit me.
I learned my lesson the hard way. Others have. And others will.

Why did (s)he bite you? What was happening at the time?
was the dog playing and got carried away? Had you or anyone around you shown aggression to the dog just prior to the attack?
On the whole, dogs won't bite for no reason. It's either because they feel you're a threat, a warning nip if you're doing something they don't like or it's a bite through play.

daviesee

Slowbike wrote:

Why did (s)he bite you? What was happening at the time?
was the dog playing and got carried away? Had you or anyone around you shown aggression to the dog just prior to the attack?
On the whole, dogs won't bite for no reason. It's either because they feel you're a threat, a warning nip if you're doing something they don't like or it's a bite through play.

The dog was ill. I was simply petting her good morning. We had no prior warning. She died 6 months later.
The 2 points are:-
1. She had a reason.
2. We had no idea.

No.2 is the concern.

I get the feeling that nothing I say will change your mind so I am done, but I am willing to bet that another sad story is repeated in less than a year. And those owners will say that the dog was nice and friendly.

Doctor House

Siberian Huskies seem to be the new chav dog. I'm sure someone will quickly come along and say "I've got a Siberian Husky and I'm not a chav". I'm not saying you are. When I drive through the minky part of town on the way home I see people with Siberian Huskies where it used to be people with Rottweilers, then people with Pit Bulls. It seems to be fashionable on the estate. Along with Staydry jackets.

Daz555

There is undoubtably a relationship between the type of dog which requires a really good owner and the kind of person attracted so such high maintenance dogs.

Sadly the relationship is not a positive one. Show me a nasty looking bruiser of a dog with its owner and chances are the dog is the more intelligent one and in no doubt as to who is in charge.

the playing mantis

The whole point is capabilities. A leopard could probably make a good pet in the right hands. So long as dogs that have a lineage of aggression/protection and have the means ( power, strength, big jaws) to do serious damage are kept as pets, such tragedies will re occur. Simple as that.

mpatts

the playing mantis wrote:

The whole point is capabilities. A leopard could probably make a good pet in the right hands. So long as dogs that have a lineage of aggression/protection and have the means ( power, strength, big jaws) to do serious damage are kept as pets, such tragedies will re occur. Simple as that.

In other words...

Cats that are the size of dogs are illegal.

mamba80

the playing mantis wrote:

The whole point is capabilities. A leopard could probably make a good pet in the right hands. So long as dogs that have a lineage of aggression/protection and have the means ( power, strength, big jaws) to do serious damage are kept as pets, such tragedies will re occur. Simple as that.

yes yes - we all know that but what to do about it ? or like Baby P lets just wait until the next death ?

Until we have a rigorous license system, where licenses are refused and certain types of dogs put down - then kids will continue to die, and an increasing number of people will be injured - micro chipping, widening the range of banned breeds in its self, will do diddly.

People (and their children) sometimes need protecting from themselves, many people with dogs have absolutely no idea how vicious their little or not so little, fido can be.

DeVlaeminck

They can'tevenenforce existing legislation- I was working in an inner city area this week and saw two pitbulls within half an hour (and I mean pitbulls not staffies). I'm not paying a licence for my dogs unless I think they'll catch me for not doing so and the fine is severe - it's like asking cyclists to have a licence when most cause no problems.

The dog that killed this girl appears to be an American Bulldog not a bull mastiff - my father in law has one and imo they are (along with pitbulls) not suitable for most owners - including most that think they are knowledgeable.

MattC59

Though tragic, what person in their right mind thinks it's a good idea to buy a bull mastiff, from a rescue home when they have a four year old daughter ?!?!

Owners should be licensed and assessed as to whether they are suitable and have a suitable environment for the animal.

kajjal

Most of the irresponsible dog owners will never have a licence it is the responsible owners that will making it point less. Dogs are pack animals and when trained properly and set proper limits they are very good for the family and really enjoy themselves. Dogs need to know that while you are the pack leader you are a fair / respectful pack leader and most will challenge you at some point especially when they are younger but it is easily dealt with and rarely happens again.

Most dog attacks are down to the owners not raising the dog properly and spending time bonding with them.

the playing mantis

mamba80 wrote:

the playing mantis wrote:

The whole point is capabilities. A leopard could probably make a good pet in the right hands. So long as dogs that have a lineage of aggression/protection and have the means ( power, strength, big jaws) to do serious damage are kept as pets, such tragedies will re occur. Simple as that.

yes yes - we all know that but what to do about it ? or like Baby P lets just wait until the next death ?

Until we have a rigorous license system, where licenses are refused and certain types of dogs put down - then kids will continue to die, and an increasing number of people will be injured - micro chipping, widening the range of banned breeds in its self, will do diddly.

People (and their children) sometimes need protecting from themselves, many people with dogs have absolutely no idea how vicious their little or not so little, fido can be.

phase out these breeds. its the only way to be 100% sure.

harsh and cruel as most are probably lovely, but if you want 0 risk....

Cygnus

Doctor House wrote:

Siberian Huskies seem to be the new chav dog. I'm sure someone will quickly come along and say "I've got a Siberian Husky and I'm not a chav". I'm not saying you are. When I drive through the minky part of town on the way home I see people with Siberian Huskies where it used to be people with Rottweilers, then people with Pit Bulls. It seems to be fashionable on the estate. Along with Staydry jackets.

Not quite, but I do know someone with a Siberian Husky and she's not a chav She got her dog off one of her friends because that friend couldn't look after it or something, so now it's her dog and she's sensible with it.

But I now see lots of people with Huskies and most of them can't control them, some of them use them as status dogs and there is one group of lads I always see with a Husky, the Husky always pulls on the lead and goes berserk when it sees another dog, I always have to cross the road when I'm with my dog. They clearly can't control it but they want everyone to see them with a Husky.

rjsterry

the playing mantis wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

the playing mantis wrote:

The whole point is capabilities. A leopard could probably make a good pet in the right hands. So long as dogs that have a lineage of aggression/protection and have the means ( power, strength, big jaws) to do serious damage are kept as pets, such tragedies will re occur. Simple as that.

yes yes - we all know that but what to do about it ? or like Baby P lets just wait until the next death ?

Until we have a rigorous license system, where licenses are refused and certain types of dogs put down - then kids will continue to die, and an increasing number of people will be injured - micro chipping, widening the range of banned breeds in its self, will do diddly.

People (and their children) sometimes need protecting from themselves, many people with dogs have absolutely no idea how vicious their little or not so little, fido can be.

phase out these breeds. its the only way to be 100% sure.

harsh and cruel as most are probably lovely, but if you want 0 risk....

How so? If you could (a big if, granted) stop all breeding of certain breeds, they'd die out naturally in about 15 years. While we're at it, we could breed out all the deformities and defects that we've bred into various breeds.