on-one codeine.

blinddrew

supersonic wrote:

What gearing is best for an individual is personal preference. There is no best system, all have advantages and disadvantages.

^^^This. Some people are going to like a 1x set up, some people are going to like a double or triple - it's like the compact vs standard discussion on road bikes.

cooldad

blinddrew wrote:

supersonic wrote:

What gearing is best for an individual is personal preference. There is no best system, all have advantages and disadvantages.

^^^This. Some people are going to like a 1x set up, some people are going to like a double or triple - it's like the veet vs razor discussion on road bikes.

FTFY

njee20

The XX1 cassette is machined from a solid block to make it light, not related to strength. It's exactly the same as XX was in 10 speed. It'll trickle down. It'll weigh more, but we'll see it.

lawman

What really got me interested was the old 12-36 9spd cassette I used on my Maxlight. With a few tweaks surely it would be relatively easy to make a 10spd 11-40t cassette?

Looking at the 10spd XT cassette anyone can currently buy, the 11-36 has the following gearing - 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36. now if you were to replace the 15-17 with a single 16t cog, which you can buy from shimano - http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/shim ... aid:574089 - this would leave space for a large 40t cog at the top of the cassette. Now that opens up the wide ratio possibilities to 10spd meaning you'd need little more than that 16t shimano cog costing less than fiver and a custom 40t cog that could fit at the rear, given how much a similar sized chainring costs could be around £30. So in theory at least, for £35 you could have nearly the same range as XX1 for a tiny fraction of the price.

My point is the argument it costs too much is invalid. Sram charge what they charge because they can, not because it costs so much to make as I've just proven and in theory somebody could machine up a 40t cog tomorrow and I'm willing to bet they would make a killing if it would allow people to keep their current shifters and mech. If somebody could do it in their garage for a pittance, Sram and Shimano can do the same.

njee20

lawman wrote:

My point is the argument it costs too much is invalid. Sram charge what they charge because they can, not because it costs so much to make as I've just proven and in theory somebody could machine up a 40t cog tomorrow and I'm willing to bet they would make a killing if it would allow people to keep their current shifters and mech. If somebody could do it in their garage for a pittance, Sram and Shimano can do the same.

You miss the point a bit though, the SRAM offering is expensive because it's hugely labour intensive. As XX is - the cassette is the same price as XX1. They're not saying that you can't do 11 speed 10-42 blocks for less (see again the 10 speed example), merely that they've introduced something at the bleeding edge of what they can do, and it's expensive. There will be an X9.1 offering or whatever which will probably be £70 and weigh a chunk more, but the XX1 offering will remain the lightest. Likewise you could bodge an offering as you propose, but that doesn't serve to prove XX1 is overpriced.

lawman

Oh yeah I don't doubt it takes a fair amount of time to make the XX1/X01 cassettes, I guess I was trying to say that Sram aren't going to rush through a cheaper groupset when they can sell a shed load of XX1/X01 at the prices they currently charge, though they can be had for a lot less. The technology is going to get a lot cheaper and it seems like manufacturers like On One are preparing for it already. The new Norco sight carbon also comes in a 1x specific version.

njee20

And the new S-Works Epic World Cup.

Kowalski675

njee20 wrote:

The XX1 cassette is machined from a solid block to make it light, not related to strength.

You know better than the manufacturer then, lol...

lawman

Was it not Keith Bontrager who said "strong, cheap, light - pick two"?

XX/XX1 are Sram's top end groupsets, with the best and most expensive manufacturing techniques. As Njee says, the XX cassette preforms the same functions and has the same gear ratios as a PG1030 cassette, the difference is the way they're manufactured. The one piece construction of XX/XX1/X01 is not becuase thats the only way to make it strong enough, but to make it as light as possible without compromising the strength.

Leonardi racing make a 28-42t adapter for Sram and Shimano 10spd cassettes already and shows what can be done at a more reasonable price. As has been said if Sram can sell the high-end products at a high price, from their point of view it's in their interest to maximise that. Releasing a cheaper group so soon after would impact sales and if they don't have to do it, why should they if people are willing to pay the price? When they believe the time is right they will launch X91 or X71. My guess is we'll see it mid way through 2014.

Kowalski675

lawman wrote:

The one piece construction of XX/XX1/X01 is not becuase thats the only way to make it strong enough, but to make it as light as possible without compromising the strength.

Two different ways of saying the same thing.

stubs

Wonder if they could 3D print an XX type cassette. Apparently the Army uses a 3D printer to make spare parts for guns so it might be possible in the near future.

lawman

Don't see any reason why they couldn't. I think 3D printing is going to become a big part of manufacturing over the next few years, so many bike parts that it would incredibly useful for, stems, rocker links, hubs, cassettes... the list is pretty much endless.

Kowalski675

stubs wrote:

Wonder if they could 3D print an XX type cassette. Apparently the Army uses a 3D printer to make spare parts for guns so it might be possible in the near future.

They probably could, but I can't imagine a plastic sprocket lasting very long, lol... And it would take longer than the 3 hours it takes to machine one (even not allowing for the failure rates involved in 3D printing - it's great for prototyping, but not production runs).

stubs

Kowalski675 wrote:

stubs wrote:

Wonder if they could 3D print an XX type cassette. Apparently the Army uses a 3D printer to make spare parts for guns so it might be possible in the near future.

They probably could, but I can't imagine a plastic sprocket lasting very long, lol... And it would take longer than the 3 hours it takes to machine one (even not allowing for the failure rates involved in 3D printing - it's great for prototyping, but not production runs).

You dont just 3D print in plastic. They are printing hip joints out of titanium nowadays.

lawman

Charge did a run of Ti frames with 3D printed dropouts. I think a cassette is perfectly doable in a 3D printer

supersonic

Lawman is right, they have not released the lower end stuff because they can milk the higher end stuff for a long time yet. But that is not unusual... however I only see it (and hope) it is an alternative to what many people use at the minute.

Very focused frame designs are mostly for racers looking to shed the gram. As a weight weenie myself I can see why some might do it. But On One? To me OnOne have always been the slightly left field manufacturer for the masses, adaptable, cover a lot of bases. This is too focused for its cause, is not going to be light.

Kowalski675

supersonic wrote:

Lawman is right,

Time will tell, but I think not.

supersonic

How do you mean? As in they won't release lower end stuff?

njee20

You know better than the manufacturer then, lol

Why do you say that? All SRAM have done with XX1 and XO1 is replicate what they did 3 years hence with XX and X.0! Of course there will be lower end stuff, it's naive to think not. Just as XX was the only way to get 10 speed in 2010 and the cassettes were £320, XX1 was the only way to get 11 speed. With Shimano not doing a rival why would SRAM rush to get out a budget alternative, they're selling plenty of top end groupsets!

And as said, there are plenty of examples of 3D printing in metal. You seem to be rather out of your depth here!?

The Rookie

Just wondering what BB the Codeine uses, if it's threaded and E-type mech may be an option!

What I can't see is why neither Shimano nor SRAM have done a wider ratio 10speed cassette, if 11 speed can go 9-42, 10 can go 10-42 using a spider, 10-42 will offer you effectively only 1 gear less than a conventional 2x10.

lawman

The Rookie wrote:

Just wondering what BB the Codeine uses, if it's threaded and E-type mech may be an option!

What I can't see is why neither Shimano nor SRAM have done a wider ratio 10speed cassette, if 11 speed can go 9-42, 10 can go 10-42 using a spider, 10-42 will offer you effectively only 1 gear less than a conventional 2x10.

No 11 speed I know of goes 9-42 10-42 yes! The issue is with the spacing between ratios. As I said before it would be pretty easy to make a 10 speed 11-40t cassette that fits on standard freehubs using 9 shimano or Sram cogs and 1 (the 40t) that would be made independantly, people make chainrings this size so it would be relatively easy to produce. As I said before with a 16t shimano cog and a 40t made by whoever, an 11-36 cassette would could be converted to 11-40 for less than £50. This way you'd get a wider range and it would fit on a standard 10 speed freehub. The only way to get the 10t cog is a new freehub, which adds more expense if you're upgrading from a stock 10 speed setup.

I can see why On One have done what they have with the Codeine, 1x seems to be the way the long travel market is going, Pinkbike had a couple of features on the bikes people were using the EWS, of the 40-odd bikes featured I counted 7 that were fitted with double chainsets, and they were all shimano sponsored riders, as they don't have a 1x specific groupset like Sram does. For the kind of riding that kind of bike is intended for, it makes perfect sense. I've never spun out my 34-11 offroad and the 34-36 is just about enough to get me up most things that don't require to pushed up. I think an aftermarket 11-40t conversion kit would be inexpensive, would perform better than the General Lee adapters (as all but the 40t cog would be Shimano made) and would further open up 1x to people who don't have the legs for the current 1x setups offered or can't afford XX1/X01

Penylope

njee20 wrote:

With Shimano not doing a rival why would SRAM rush to get out a budget alternative, they're selling plenty of top end groupsets!

Exactly, why would SRAM introduce a 'budget' 11 speed group when there are no competing groups from Shimano?
once the new XTR is released (hopefully with 11 speed cassette!) then i wouldn't be at all suprised if SRAM miraculously 'improved' their production process to reduce the costs.

As they are such a caring company, they would be only too happy to pass the saving on to the loyal customer :P

EdW

The Rookie wrote:

Just wondering what BB the Codeine uses, if it's threaded and E-type mech may be an option!

I suspect they have optimised the chain stay length & pivot position such that a front mech won't fit regardless of how it's mounted. Similar to the Kona Process 111 that's reviewed on Pinkbike.

Regarding the 1x vs 2/3x debate. I switched to 1x10 nearly 3 years ago (34 chainring, 11-36 cassette) & immediately realised that hadn't needed all those extra gears afterall. I could get up anything that I used to manage with a 3x9 setup. Also, dropping the front mech seemed to free-up the drivetrain & made pushing the same ratio feel easier.

Kowalski675

supersonic wrote:

How do you mean? As in they won't release lower end stuff?

I don't believe there will be any lower end 1 x 11 setups in the forseeable future. To say that SRAM are keeping it high end just to milk customers is simplistic and (IMHO) just wrong. If they could manufacture them cheap enough to bring it down to X7/X9 level then they would have done so already, without impacting on sales of the high end alternatives. The sort of customers who can afford and/or justify to themselves the purchase of an £1100 transmission would still buy it, rather than the cheaper, lower spec alternative, and those that would buy the X7/X9 alteranative can't afford XX1/X01. If SRAM could make them cheap enough to do an X7 version it would already be out there, and they'd be maximising sales revenue from all market sectors, not just those who can afford £1100.

supersonic

But they have stuck to the same principles for years! The first xx, for example, plus all sorts of technologies. Hardly simplistic and wrong, they've always done it and will do it again.

Kowalski675

We'll just have to agree to disagree, lol. Time will tell which of us was right.

lawman

supersonic wrote:

But they have stuck to the same principles for years! The first xx, for example, plus all sorts of technologies. Hardly simplistic and wrong, they've always done it and will do it again.

What he said ^^^^^

Everyone does it. The first clutch mech Shimano bought out was XTR in 2011 and now for MY2014 it features on every groupset down to Deore. The same happened with double chainsets and so on. As Sonic says it's been happening for years in every industry, not just the cycle industry.

njee20

Exactly, why would SRAM introduce a 'budget' 11 speed group when there are no competing groups from Shimano?
once the new XTR is released (hopefully with 11 speed cassette!) then i wouldn't be at all suprised if SRAM miraculously 'improved' their production process to reduce the costs.

It's not even that, they'll just introduce a conventionally made (and heavier) cassette. XX1 will continue to cost a fortune, but will be the lightest.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, lol. Time will tell which of us was right.

I'd be stunned if you were right. There's a huge precedent here, it's how it works.

2010 - SRAM launched XX, only 10 speed MTB group, cost about £1500 for a groupset
2011 - Shimano launch XTR/XT/SLX 10 speed, SRAM do X.0, X.9, X.7 10 speed. XX costs about £1500 for a groupset
2013 - XX costs about £1500 for a groupset

See how this works!? Happened with Dura Ace on the road in 2004 when that went 10 speed, and last year with 9000 series when it went 11 speed. It trickles down, we've got a second tier 11 speed road group this year. I don't know where you've got this idea that they've made the XX1 cassette as they have to make it strong, it's because it's light. It's not new technology, it's exactly what they've done on XX, just with bigger sprockets. No reason you can't make a 10-42 cassette exactly the same way as an 11-36, aside from needing to be XD compatible obviously.

LOL. :roll:

Thewaylander

Fella go read some articles, that's pretty much exactly what they say themselves!

There making there money back while the going is good! And guess what I don't blame there first to the market with a great product!

Kowalski675

Whatever.