Off Season Training

Embo83

Hi All

I started road cycling in January this year, and I seem to have got pretty good in the 10 months I've been doing it, improving all the time.

Now that the season is over, I'm just wondering if anybody has any tips on what I should be doing for training?

I cycle to work 3-4 days a week, which is 25km each way. Is this enough to keep my base level of fitness up, or is it too much which might result in me 'burning out'? I've bought a training book, but it's going to take me a while to get through it so just wanted a few tips in the mean time to make sure I'm not going down the wrong road.

Also I've just had a little baby, and promised the Mrs I'd back off the longer rides on a weekend until after the new year. So was planning on doing some work on the turbo and maybe a bit of mountain biking over Nov/Dec.

I'm wanting to do some racing next season, as this year I've just been doing sportives.

Your help will be much appreciated!

mpatts

I do a mix of 'core' work (in other words, home gym and some yoga), running, mountain biking, and road biking.

I don't like road riding at dusk/dawn, but running and MTB are no problem.

Embo83

Thanks

Any opinions on whether my commuting is enough/too much?

I'll also be adding some weights and core work in over the next 3 months.

diamonddog

Commute and turbo should keep your fitness at a good level ready for Spring, you can focus it more for your specific plan as it gets nearer to the good weather.

mpatts

Embo83 wrote:

Thanks

Any opinions on whether my commuting is enough/too much?

I'll also be adding some weights and core work in over the next 3 months.

I would say that it's not too much to keep a base in. On the way home, you might consider chucking in some intervals - that will help no end.

ric/rstsport

Embo83 wrote:

Hi All

I started road cycling in January this year, and I seem to have got pretty good in the 10 months I've been doing it, improving all the time.

Now that the season is over, I'm just wondering if anybody has any tips on what I should be doing for training?

I cycle to work 3-4 days a week, which is 25km each way. Is this enough to keep my base level of fitness up, or is it too much which might result in me 'burning out'? I've bought a training book, but it's going to take me a while to get through it so just wanted a few tips in the mean time to make sure I'm not going down the wrong road.

Also I've just had a little baby, and promised the Mrs I'd back off the longer rides on a weekend until after the new year. So was planning on doing some work on the turbo and maybe a bit of mountain biking over Nov/Dec.

I'm wanting to do some racing next season, as this year I've just been doing sportives.

Your help will be much appreciated!

It's an unanswerable question because we don't know what you did in the previous 10 months, how much time you have now, exactly what sort of races you'll do next year (RR? TT? Track? MTB? Triathlon?) and how fit you are. it's also difficult to know how hard your commute is.

I'd be surprised if you were 'burning out' on 3 to 4 x 25 km (twice a day) as you should be mentally very fresh having only done cycling for 10-months.

ric

Embo83

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Hi All

I started road cycling in January this year, and I seem to have got pretty good in the 10 months I've been doing it, improving all the time.

Now that the season is over, I'm just wondering if anybody has any tips on what I should be doing for training?

I cycle to work 3-4 days a week, which is 25km each way. Is this enough to keep my base level of fitness up, or is it too much which might result in me 'burning out'? I've bought a training book, but it's going to take me a while to get through it so just wanted a few tips in the mean time to make sure I'm not going down the wrong road.

Also I've just had a little baby, and promised the Mrs I'd back off the longer rides on a weekend until after the new year. So was planning on doing some work on the turbo and maybe a bit of mountain biking over Nov/Dec.

I'm wanting to do some racing next season, as this year I've just been doing sportives.

Your help will be much appreciated!

It's an unanswerable question because we don't know what you did in the previous 10 months, how much time you have now, exactly what sort of races you'll do next year (RR? TT? Track? MTB? Triathlon?) and how fit you are. it's also difficult to know how hard your commute is.

I'd be surprised if you were 'burning out' on 3 to 4 x 25 km (twice a day) as you should be mentally very fresh having only done cycling for 10-months.

ric

Ric

Thanks for your reply.

Since January I have basically just built up my mileage in my weekend rides between Jan-June, began adding some interval sessions in from around April time during the week, and also a hilly ride (I live near the Yorkshire Dales so most of my rides are hilly).

In July I did my first Sportive, 195km with 11,000ft of climbing and did quite well, 18/1000. I did another couple of sportives after this and finished 4th then 1st. That pretty much brings me to where I am now.

I am part of a cycling club who have said they'd like me to race next season, I think this will be RR & maybe some TT's. I'd also like to improve on my times in the Sportives.

My commute to work is about 24km which I do in about 42-45 mins, it has 3 hills approx. 2-3 mins long at approx 4-6% gradient then finishes with a long flat road. I was trying to use this as a bit of an interval session over the summer. My ride home I go a different route, about 28km which takes me about an hour, it's kind of a long uphill drag for most of the way with a sharp descent at the end. I usually try to stay in HR zone 3 for most of the ride.

shockedsoshocked

Start with joining Saturday and Sunday club runs. Most areas will have a core of racing cyclists who head out together on a weekend, so get out with them, learn how to ride in a group, pick up some tips and see how you fare against them. It may be a shock to the system to see how fit some lads are but it can give you an idea of where you need to be.

w00dster

Before you get the racers coming on here and arguing the difference, you have to remember that a sportive is not a race.
I generally ride alone and also take part in sportives, I was also thinking I was doing pretty good. Joined a club a month or so ago, and wow, that was a real eye opener! As Shocked says, you should join a club and that will give you a good barometer of your fitness against other guys who race.
If you have a good level of fitness, then the commuting isn't too much. And with the bad weather over the next few months you may find that the quality of your commute from a training perspective suffers (are you really able to ride at sufficient intensity when weather is pish, after a tough day in work etc?)
As I'm a bit of a girls blouse and don't like riding in the wet and dark, I only ride now on a Sunday club run (50 miles). However I supplement this with a sufferfest session twice a week and have just joined a Spinning Club in London (CycleBeat). (Waiting for the groans now!!) I also weight train twice a week, one full session, one core session followed by a sufferfest.
Sufferfest in my opinion is awesome, I have a good number of vids, well worth getting. 1 hour of pure pain. After getting of the bike I want to eat everything in the house, that's my indication that I've had a good session.

Good luck with your winter training. Be interested to hear what you think about a local club.

Embo83

w00dster wrote:

Before you get the racers coming on here and arguing the difference, you have to remember that a sportive is not a race.
I generally ride alone and also take part in sportives, I was also thinking I was doing pretty good. Joined a club a month or so ago, and wow, that was a real eye opener! As Shocked says, you should join a club and that will give you a good barometer of your fitness against other guys who race.
If you have a good level of fitness, then the commuting isn't too much. And with the bad weather over the next few months you may find that the quality of your commute from a training perspective suffers (are you really able to ride at sufficient intensity when weather is pish, after a tough day in work etc?)
As I'm a bit of a girls blouse and don't like riding in the wet and dark, I only ride now on a Sunday club run (50 miles). However I supplement this with a sufferfest session twice a week and have just joined a Spinning Club in London (CycleBeat). (Waiting for the groans now!!) I also weight train twice a week, one full session, one core session followed by a sufferfest.
Sufferfest in my opinion is awesome, I have a good number of vids, well worth getting. 1 hour of pure pain. After getting of the bike I want to eat everything in the house, that's my indication that I've had a good session.

Good luck with your winter training. Be interested to hear what you think about a local club.

Thanks for your reply.

I don't mind riding in the bad weather really, and anything beats public transport. I always push fairly hard on my commute rides as I simply want to get to work and get home as quick as possible! I guess what my question is really, is my ride to and from work going to be enough to keep my base level of fitness up without doing long weekend rides? I do plan to start adding these back in during January, just promised the Mrs I'd back off a bit after the last Sportive I did in mid Oct.

I'm out riding with a group on Saturday with guys who race, so that should give me a bit of an indicator I guess. It didn't really begin as I wanted to race, I was asked by people if I would. But now I've thought about it I definitely want to. I'm not really expecting much, just don't want to be a laughing stock so want to be as best prepared as possible.

Are the Sufferfest vids not just interval training? Not really what you want to be doing at this point of the season??

ric/rstsport

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

BenderRodriguez

Embo83 wrote:

I'm out riding with a group on Saturday with guys who race, so that should give me a bit of an indicator I guess.

Don't forget that at this time of the year, especially if it is a 'social' ride, they will probably be going about 10 mph slower than when they are actually racing!

sloppyschleckonds

There is no off season

w00dster

I guess as long as your willing to put the effort into your commutes then you shouldnt lose any of your base fitness. Heres a quick read on interval training so might be worth a read...
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/ ... ess.html#b
Heres another good link re interval training and Cat 4 racing....
http://www.cyclingweekly.cc/forum/fitne ... cing-13737
and another discussing average speeds...
viewtopic.php?p=15224291
As a long time commuter I know that the quality of my rides drops in the winter months. All wrapped up in winter togs, roads are slippery with leaves, wet etc, my percieved effort still feels high, but the reality may not match the perception. But like I said previously, im a girls blouse so thats just me!
I totally understand your predicament regarding family time. And as a dad my advice would be to enjoy the family time now, you'll never get the time back and all too soon your little un will be off to college and you'll be wondering what happened!! (My son is 16 and interviewing at the moment for different college's)
Hope your ride with the club guys on Saturday goes well, if they are Cat 3 or 4 be worth trying to see what they are planning for winter training.

Embo83

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

Because you should be training for you base fitness??

Embo83

w00dster wrote:

I guess as long as your willing to put the effort into your commutes then you shouldnt lose any of your base fitness. Heres a quick read on interval training so might be worth a read...
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/ ... ess.html#b
Heres another good link re interval training and Cat 4 racing....
http://www.cyclingweekly.cc/forum/fitne ... cing-13737
and another discussing average speeds...
viewtopic.php?p=15224291
As a long time commuter I know that the quality of my rides drops in the winter months. All wrapped up in winter togs, roads are slippery with leaves, wet etc, my percieved effort still feels high, but the reality may not match the perception. But like I said previously, im a girls blouse so thats just me!
I totally understand your predicament regarding family time. And as a dad my advice would be to enjoy the family time now, you'll never get the time back and all too soon your little un will be off to college and you'll be wondering what happened!! (My son is 16 and interviewing at the moment for different college's)
Hope your ride with the club guys on Saturday goes well, if they are Cat 3 or 4 be worth trying to see what they are planning for winter training.

Thanks for that, will have a read.

An yes I'll get talking to them and see what they are all doing for winter training.

Cheers

Embo83

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

There is no off season

I think the period where the last race finishes and the first race of the spring starts is generally referred to as off season.

ric/rstsport

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

Because you should be training for you base fitness??

perhaps, you'd like to expand on that, so that i can then make some suggestions (e.g. your idea of base fitness may differ wildly from mine?)

ric

Davey C

I wouldn't bother with the core training and weights unless a physio has told you to do them.

TAKE COVER!!

ric/rstsport

off-season tends to suggest that it's a period of reduced activity, taking time off and riding easy. On that basis, there really is no off-season anymore.

Embo83

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

Because you should be training for you base fitness??

perhaps, you'd like to expand on that, so that i can then make some suggestions (e.g. your idea of base fitness may differ wildly from mine?)

ric

Base fitness - you're aerobic fitness, i.e. your endurance. From my understanding you build that in the off season (off season being the time of year where the racing season has finished), then add your intervals and speed work in the build period up to your first race.

Embo83

Davey C wrote:

I wouldn't bother with the core training and weights unless a physio has told you to do them.

TAKE COVER!!

Really? Surely a strong core is beneficial to any cyclist!

Max Bridges

That particular old school method works well with someone new or returning or coming back from injury or illness when fit though I think it is now accepted it is better to do at least some high intensity throughout the year.

But you may want to be careful with doing high intensity before you have built up some fitness first.

ric/rstsport

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

Because you should be training for you base fitness??

perhaps, you'd like to expand on that, so that i can then make some suggestions (e.g. your idea of base fitness may differ wildly from mine?)

ric

Base fitness - you're aerobic fitness, i.e. your endurance. From my understanding you build that in the off season (off season being the time of year where the racing season has finished), then add your intervals and speed work in the build period up to your first race.

Endurance, as in how long you can keep cycling for is really wooly. That is, for e.g., you may be able to do 2hrs now at a reasonable clip. however, if you knock the intensity back a little you could maybe do 3 hrs, and if you knock it back further 4hrs and so on.

what most people want to do though is slightly different. Back to the example if you can do 2hrs at a good clip, you may actually want to do 3 hrs at the same good intensity. or 4hrs. or more. And, this requires a different approach to just being able to ride for (say) 4hrs (which we suggested could be done, by riding significantly easier than your 2hrs at good intensity). Here, what you're *really* wanting to do is increase your sustainable power output over specific durations. This is because intensity is inversely related to duration (you can sprint very hard for a few seconds, or ride much easier for 5 hours etc).

Previously, it was thought that by just doing lots of long steady endurance rides that this would help your endurance (it does), and make you more efficient at 'burning fat' (it does do this as well). However, by increasing your aerobic fitness (and aerobic fitness is up to and including VO2max - which is the maximal amount of oxygen that can be utilised by the body and corresponds roughly with a maximal ~5-minute effort) you will also increase your endurance and the maximal power you can sustain for semi long periods of time (e.g. 60-mins).

Additionally, it was previously, and incorrectly thought (by coaches) that doing high intensity training (e.g. anything above steady endurance efforts) would 'burst' capillaries and therefore damage the aerobic fitness you may have (capillaries being the tiny blood vessels and having a proliferation of these and mitochondria - the power house of the cell being extremely important in increasing aerobic fitness). However, both these (capillaries and mitochondria) are best/most efficiently built by doing high intensity work (~1hr TT effort to VO2max). Furthermore, this increases your sustainable maximal ~1hr power and allows more work to be done via 'burning fat' and therefore sparing muscle and liver glycogen (the body's quality energy store) and extending your endurance.

As mentioned it's rather old school to just do endurance miles in the winter. I'll be doing a variety of intervals over the winter to maintain, and more likely increase the power i can generate before next spring when i should race.

In terms of weights etc. research is somewhat equivocal on this. there is some research to suggest that weights are bad, some say no effect, and some say some positive effect (although the research studies weren't always well thought out and cause 'issues'). What can be stated though, with certainty is that the forces involved in endurance cycling are extremely low such that virtually everyone (i mean everyone not just athletes) could generate the forces required to win a mountain stage of the Tour de France. A ~70kg person would require approx ~26kg of force (~260 N) between both legs to win on say Alpe d'Huez. Given that if you have to stand up that same 70 kg person would need to support 70 kg.... With regards to the core, it should be easily understood that the forces at your leg while riding are going to far exceed the forces anywhere while riding (e.g. your core) so if your core isn't strong enough to support you while cycling there's something either wrong with you, or more likely your bike isn't well set up, or you've just started cycling (and your muscles haven't yet gotten use to cycling).

That said, you may need to increase your strength for other reasons, or aesthetics, or for bone mineral density (running is best for this i believe), so don't have a problem with people doing upper body strength work (it's quite possible that increasing strength in your legs may lead to a decrease in aerobic cycling performance).

I've covered quite a lot in this post and by necessity i've skimmed through stuff, otherwise i'll be writing all day :-). it's possible in my hurry to write this i've missed important stuff out or potentially not explained quite right. Hopefully, though it leads to more questions that are less broad in answer.

Ric

Embo83

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

Because you should be training for you base fitness??

perhaps, you'd like to expand on that, so that i can then make some suggestions (e.g. your idea of base fitness may differ wildly from mine?)

ric

Base fitness - you're aerobic fitness, i.e. your endurance. From my understanding you build that in the off season (off season being the time of year where the racing season has finished), then add your intervals and speed work in the build period up to your first race.

Endurance, as in how long you can keep cycling for is really wooly. That is, for e.g., you may be able to do 2hrs now at a reasonable clip. however, if you knock the intensity back a little you could maybe do 3 hrs, and if you knock it back further 4hrs and so on.

what most people want to do though is slightly different. Back to the example if you can do 2hrs at a good clip, you may actually want to do 3 hrs at the same good intensity. or 4hrs. or more. And, this requires a different approach to just being able to ride for (say) 4hrs (which we suggested could be done, by riding significantly easier than your 2hrs at good intensity). Here, what you're *really* wanting to do is increase your sustainable power output over specific durations. This is because intensity is inversely related to duration (you can sprint very hard for a few seconds, or ride much easier for 5 hours etc).

Previously, it was thought that by just doing lots of long steady endurance rides that this would help your endurance (it does), and make you more efficient at 'burning fat' (it does do this as well). However, by increasing your aerobic fitness (and aerobic fitness is up to and including VO2max - which is the maximal amount of oxygen that can be utilised by the body and corresponds roughly with a maximal ~5-minute effort) you will also increase your endurance and the maximal power you can sustain for semi long periods of time (e.g. 60-mins).

Additionally, it was previously, and incorrectly thought (by coaches) that doing high intensity training (e.g. anything above steady endurance efforts) would 'burst' capillaries and therefore damage the aerobic fitness you may have (capillaries being the tiny blood vessels and having a proliferation of these and mitochondria - the power house of the cell being extremely important in increasing aerobic fitness). However, both these (capillaries and mitochondria) are best/most efficiently built by doing high intensity work (~1hr TT effort to VO2max). Furthermore, this increases your sustainable maximal ~1hr power and allows more work to be done via 'burning fat' and therefore sparing muscle and liver glycogen (the body's quality energy store) and extending your endurance.

As mentioned it's rather old school to just do endurance miles in the winter. I'll be doing a variety of intervals over the winter to maintain, and more likely increase the power i can generate before next spring when i should race.

In terms of weights etc. research is somewhat equivocal on this. there is some research to suggest that weights are bad, some say no effect, and some say some positive effect (although the research studies weren't always well thought out and cause 'issues'). What can be stated though, with certainty is that the forces involved in endurance cycling are extremely low such that virtually everyone (i mean everyone not just athletes) could generate the forces required to win a mountain stage of the Tour de France. A ~70kg person would require approx ~26kg of force (~260 N) between both legs to win on say Alpe d'Huez. Given that if you have to stand up that same 70 kg person would need to support 70 kg.... With regards to the core, it should be easily understood that the forces at your leg while riding are going to far exceed the forces anywhere while riding (e.g. your core) so if your core isn't strong enough to support you while cycling there's something either wrong with you, or more likely your bike isn't well set up, or you've just started cycling (and your muscles haven't yet gotten use to cycling).

That said, you may need to increase your strength for other reasons, or aesthetics, or for bone mineral density (running is best for this i believe), so don't have a problem with people doing upper body strength work (it's quite possible that increasing strength in your legs may lead to a decrease in aerobic cycling performance).

I've covered quite a lot in this post and by necessity i've skimmed through stuff, otherwise i'll be writing all day :-). it's possible in my hurry to write this i've missed important stuff out or potentially not explained quite right. Hopefully, though it leads to more questions that are less broad in answer.

Ric

Ric

Your extensive response really is much appreciated. I'll have a good read through when I'm not supposed to be working ;-)

As I'm guessing this is what you do for a living - do you have a website and/or contact details?

I'm reading books at the moment which are in many ways quite confusing, as they never really seem to have the exact answers for your personal training requirements - I'm guessing this is something you could provide (obviously for a price)

Cheers

Chris

ric/rstsport

yes, coaching is what i do for a living. I own RST Sport (www.rstsport.com) and Aero-coach (www.aero-coach.com). The former deals with the person, while the latter is related to aerodynamic testing and bike fits.

We work with a wide range of people from people wanting to be fitter, through to the highest echelons of the sport (e.g. i've worked with riders at the TdF and coached riders to win the World Championship).

ric@rstsport.com is the easiest way to contact me.

cheers
ric

Davey C

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Embo83 wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

while i have no idea what the Sufferfest vids are like, the question is: why would you NOT want to do intervals at this time of the season?

ric

Because you should be training for you base fitness??

perhaps, you'd like to expand on that, so that i can then make some suggestions (e.g. your idea of base fitness may differ wildly from mine?)

ric

Base fitness - you're aerobic fitness, i.e. your endurance. From my understanding you build that in the off season (off season being the time of year where the racing season has finished), then add your intervals and speed work in the build period up to your first race.

Endurance, as in how long you can keep cycling for is really wooly. That is, for e.g., you may be able to do 2hrs now at a reasonable clip. however, if you knock the intensity back a little you could maybe do 3 hrs, and if you knock it back further 4hrs and so on.

what most people want to do though is slightly different. Back to the example if you can do 2hrs at a good clip, you may actually want to do 3 hrs at the same good intensity. or 4hrs. or more. And, this requires a different approach to just being able to ride for (say) 4hrs (which we suggested could be done, by riding significantly easier than your 2hrs at good intensity). Here, what you're *really* wanting to do is increase your sustainable power output over specific durations. This is because intensity is inversely related to duration (you can sprint very hard for a few seconds, or ride much easier for 5 hours etc).

Previously, it was thought that by just doing lots of long steady endurance rides that this would help your endurance (it does), and make you more efficient at 'burning fat' (it does do this as well). However, by increasing your aerobic fitness (and aerobic fitness is up to and including VO2max - which is the maximal amount of oxygen that can be utilised by the body and corresponds roughly with a maximal ~5-minute effort) you will also increase your endurance and the maximal power you can sustain for semi long periods of time (e.g. 60-mins).

Additionally, it was previously, and incorrectly thought (by coaches) that doing high intensity training (e.g. anything above steady endurance efforts) would 'burst' capillaries and therefore damage the aerobic fitness you may have (capillaries being the tiny blood vessels and having a proliferation of these and mitochondria - the power house of the cell being extremely important in increasing aerobic fitness). However, both these (capillaries and mitochondria) are best/most efficiently built by doing high intensity work (~1hr TT effort to VO2max). Furthermore, this increases your sustainable maximal ~1hr power and allows more work to be done via 'burning fat' and therefore sparing muscle and liver glycogen (the body's quality energy store) and extending your endurance.

As mentioned it's rather old school to just do endurance miles in the winter. I'll be doing a variety of intervals over the winter to maintain, and more likely increase the power i can generate before next spring when i should race.

In terms of weights etc. research is somewhat equivocal on this. there is some research to suggest that weights are bad, some say no effect, and some say some positive effect (although the research studies weren't always well thought out and cause 'issues'). What can be stated though, with certainty is that the forces involved in endurance cycling are extremely low such that virtually everyone (i mean everyone not just athletes) could generate the forces required to win a mountain stage of the Tour de France. A ~70kg person would require approx ~26kg of force (~260 N) between both legs to win on say Alpe d'Huez. Given that if you have to stand up that same 70 kg person would need to support 70 kg.... With regards to the core, it should be easily understood that the forces at your leg while riding are going to far exceed the forces anywhere while riding (e.g. your core) so if your core isn't strong enough to support you while cycling there's something either wrong with you, or more likely your bike isn't well set up, or you've just started cycling (and your muscles haven't yet gotten use to cycling).

That said, you may need to increase your strength for other reasons, or aesthetics, or for bone mineral density (running is best for this i believe), so don't have a problem with people doing upper body strength work (it's quite possible that increasing strength in your legs may lead to a decrease in aerobic cycling performance).

I've covered quite a lot in this post and by necessity i've skimmed through stuff, otherwise i'll be writing all day :-). it's possible in my hurry to write this i've missed important stuff out or potentially not explained quite right. Hopefully, though it leads to more questions that are less broad in answer.

Ric

Wot he said.