Philanthropy

pliptrot

meursault wrote:

There are more than enough resources existing in the world now, to pay for every human being to be fed, housed and educated and much more. The problem is a tiny minority like Gates has all the money. We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system. So, no it isn't a great thing.

Quite. Although not all the world's people live under capitalism, the vast majority suffer the effects. Even in the UK- that high cost, low wage economy- the disparities between rich and poor are frightening (and growing). It astonishes me that we put up with it.

Mikey23

Ok then let's stop capitalism now shall we? There that wasn't difficult was it...

Not wishing to be insulting towards anyone or their opinions but...Utterly pointless and meaningless drivel now being spoken unless you can or are prepared to do something about it. I'm with vtech on this. DO something that makes a difference in your local community. Otherwise stop bleating endlessly about how unfair it all is blah blah blah.

Volunteer for something, help out with your local food bank, credit union, soup kitchen etc. talk to a lonely person, pick up litter, sponsor a child's education etc etc etc

pliptrot

Mikey23 wrote:

Not wishing to be insulting towards anyone or their opinions but...Utterly pointless and meaningless drivel now being spoken unless you can or are prepared to do something about it. I'm with vtech on this. DO something that makes a difference in your local community. Otherwise stop bleating endlessly about how unfair it all is blah blah blah.

Volunteer for something, help out with your local food bank, credit union, soup kitchen etc. talk to a lonely person, pick up litter, sponsor a child's education etc etc etc

An excellent advertisement for the status quo by the rich and powerful. We have dysfunctional, unethical, and quite possibly illegal systems of Government and corporate administration in control and your solution is to go and help with the soup collection. This is not The Clangers. The quote above draws a medical metaphor: a man is dying of terminal cancer, and you should suggest to him, stop bleating about how painful the whole thing, get out and do some exercise and take an aspirin. It will make a difference.

No it won't.

daviesee

pliptrot wrote:

Mikey23 wrote:

Not wishing to be insulting towards anyone or their opinions but...Utterly pointless and meaningless drivel now being spoken unless you can or are prepared to do something about it. I'm with vtech on this. DO something that makes a difference in your local community. Otherwise stop bleating endlessly about how unfair it all is blah blah blah.

Volunteer for something, help out with your local food bank, credit union, soup kitchen etc. talk to a lonely person, pick up litter, sponsor a child's education etc etc etc

An excellent advertisement for the status quo by the rich and powerful. We have dysfunctional, unethical, and quite possibly illegal systems of Government and corporate administration in control and your solution is to go and help with the soup collection. This is not The Clangers. The quote above draws a medical metaphor: a man is dying of terminal cancer, and you should suggest to him, stop bleating about how painful the whole thing, get out and do some exercise and take an aspirin. It will make a difference.

No it won't.

And yet still no suggestion for a better alternative.
Moaning about a problem without a solution is just moaning.

DesB3rd

Heh, heh, we’ve got some Manny Shinwell “special place in hell for the benevolent rich” types floating around.

I can understand it well enough; wealthy individuals “doing good” is a square peg to a round hole ideological narrative and class war is a much harder sell when the bourgeoisie are not understood as a construct but rather as real, familiar and occassionally (god forbid) generous people…

VTech

meursault wrote:

VTech wrote:

It doesn't matter wether you think bill does it for personal or public gain. Fact is, he does it and people benefit.
£50m for Aston university alone helps tens of thousands just like Elizabeth Cadbury built the QE hospital and same Elizabeth school.

If you give and it helps others that is a great thing.
The ulternative is doing nothing and talking shiat about it on the Internet.

It matters to me.

There are more than enough resources existing in the world now, to pay for every human being to be fed, housed and educated and much more. The problem is a tiny minority like Gates has all the money. We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system. So, no it isn't a great thing.

For every guy who has done well there are tens of thousands who happily do little so who do you suggest is better ?
It pains me when people biatch at other who do well, I on the other hand applaud them for getting off their backsides and making something of themselves.
OK, luck can come into it, even being fortunate but without the initial work and willingness they wouldn't have gorton anywhere so no, I don't think bad of them, quite the opposite.
I was down the casino last night watching people who clearly couldn't afford to gamble, spending money they didn't have and yet these same people will biatch about the poor luck they have had like its destiny that they have nothing.
Life is choices, make the right ones and things will be better. Make the wrong ones and quite often you will get your backside kicked.

pliptrot

VTech wrote:

For every guy who has done well there are tens of thousands who happily do little so who do you suggest is better ?

this question reveals much: your view of the world as a meritocracy where those who don't do well do little is an affront to anyone who works hard and has to watch their finances carefully. In the UK there are at least 5 million people in work who make less than the living wage (some people peg that one at 14,000 quid a year). I'd suggest that many of them work very hard indeed - "do a lot" in your terms - so to put them down is grossly insulting. The arguments made above about how the world is structured are a little more esoteric than the anecdotal observations that have come up. We've all heard the nobility-in-hard-work-and-success-will-follow-arguments and all the other claptrap related to the skewed world of work (The American dream: social mobility there and here is at an all-time low). It's been trotted out regularly, for example, that bankers need to be paid a lot because of their ability. Fred Goodwin is proof enough that this is poppycock. There are many people equally as capable as the best in banking working in other fields who live on regular salary. The posit that hard work always equals (good) reward was never less true than now, and is deeply flawed and intellectually indolent.

daviesee

^^^^^
So. Whats the answer?

Mikey23

@pliptrot. I'm sure vtech is big enough to speak for himself but I don't think that is what he was saying. It's very easy to take one line out of context... In the uk I would argue that there is not poverty. There are varying levels of income, winners and losers if that's what you wish to call it. Generally speaking you get on in life by working hard. Many work hard and do not get their just rewards. The system we live in is capitalism. It is deeply flawed and often very unfair but it's what we have and it ain't going to change in our lifetime... If you do have a viable alternative then I would love to here it, but I suspect that you don't.

The context is philanthropy ... The point I was making is that you can tap at your keyboard with steam coming out of your ears all you like but it won't matter a jot. Or you can make a small difference somewhere. Simples

meursault

daviesee wrote:

meursault wrote:

We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system.

Such as?

As I was saying earlier, there has only been one serious proposal, from a philosopher on any weight, and that is Marx's Socialism.

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

Ok then let's stop capitalism now shall we? There that wasn't difficult was it...

Not wishing to be insulting towards anyone or their opinions but...Utterly pointless and meaningless drivel now being spoken unless you can or are prepared to do something about it. I'm with vtech on this. DO something that makes a difference in your local community. Otherwise stop bleating endlessly about how unfair it all is blah blah blah.

Volunteer for something, help out with your local food bank, credit union, soup kitchen etc. talk to a lonely person, pick up litter, sponsor a child's education etc etc etc

It's not quite that simple. The present class driven mode of production must be replaced by an alternative. It cannot be reformed, as It always goes back to suiting the ruling class. So the working class have to be conscious they are a class and take ownership of the means of production. As individuals we can only join the revolution to help things.

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

@pliptrot. I'm sure vtech is big enough to speak for himself but I don't think that is what he was saying. It's very easy to take one line out of context... In the uk I would argue that there is not poverty. There are varying levels of income, winners and losers if that's what you wish to call it. Generally speaking you get on in life by working hard. Many work hard and do not get their just rewards. The system we live in is capitalism. It is deeply flawed and often very unfair but it's what we have and it ain't going to change in our lifetime... If you do have a viable alternative then I would love to here it, but I suspect that you don't.

The context is philanthropy ... The point I was making is that you can tap at your keyboard with steam coming out of your ears all you like but it won't matter a jot. Or you can make a small difference somewhere. Simples

Who knows when things can change? It appears that this is all we have, but once things start to move, it can happen very quickly indeed.

As for steam in my ears, I hear you, I am neglecting my buddhism, and the young Marxist in me is having a party.

Jez mon

meursault wrote:

daviesee wrote:

meursault wrote:

We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system.

Such as?

As I was saying earlier, there has only been one serious proposal, from a philosopher on any weight, and that is Marx's Socialism.

I thought Marxism had been trialled by various countries already...

It seems logical that systems will always favour those who are in positions of power. Looking at history the dominant system (for the last x thousand years) has been one where there has been awful inequality (That doesn't make it right of course) so any genuine sea-change has got to go against thousands of years of history.

Of course, in real terms, things have probably got a lot better for those at the bottom of the pile (in this country at least) when we look at health and quality of life, rather than just wealth.

meursault

Jez mon wrote:

meursault wrote:

daviesee wrote:

meursault wrote:

We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system.

Such as?

As I was saying earlier, there has only been one serious proposal, from a philosopher on any weight, and that is Marx's Socialism.

I thought Marxism had been trialled by various countries already...

It seems logical that systems will always favour those who are in positions of power. Looking at history the dominant system (for the last x thousand years) has been one where there has been awful inequality (That doesn't make it right of course) so any genuine sea-change has got to go against thousands of years of history.

Of course, in real terms, things have probably got a lot better for those at the bottom of the pile (in this country at least) when we look at health and quality of life, rather than just wealth.

It has, in Russia in 1917. Lenin and Trotsky explained at the time though, that if the revolution did not spread internationally, then it was doomed. This proved true after Lenin died in 1923 and Stalin came to power. Stalinism is not communism but a deformed workers state.

All the previous modes of production have had inequality, but that doesn't necessarily mean the next one has to. The idea is to improve and progress each mode.

Mikey23

Is it possible to be a Marxist Buddhist?

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

Is it possible to be a Marxist Buddhist?

Erm, not sure, my Marxism only stretches to sympathiser these days, and the buddhism? Just the bits that help me make it through the night, Gladys.

Mikey23

My bikes called Gladys...

If I can be a Methodist capitalist you can certainly be a Buddhist Marxist!

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

My bikes called Gladys...

If I can be a Methodist capitalist you can certainly be a Buddhist Marxist!

That is a quality name for a bike, inspired to think of one for mine now.