Philanthropy

mrfpb

meursault wrote:

It's guilt, and the realisation that chasing the dollar was a life wasted.

Apologies M, but I think that's cynical rubbish. I don't know any billionaires, but the people I know who give to charity or work for charities are mostly sincere and happy to give. Having seen Bill Gates recent talk on the eradication of polio and five other diseases, I think he is sincere and determined in his approach to his mission. These guys aren't jumping on any bandwagon that I'm aware of.

meursault

mrfpb wrote:

meursault wrote:

It's guilt, and the realisation that chasing the dollar was a life wasted.

Apologies M, but I think that's cynical rubbish. I don't know any billionaires, but the people I know who give to charity or work for charities are mostly sincere and happy to give. Having seen Bill Gates recent talk on the eradication of polio and five other diseases, I think he is sincere and determined in his approach to his mission. These guys aren't jumping on any bandwagon that I'm aware of.

I spose if I was Billy boy, I could spare some loose change, and some nice rhetoric regarding diseases. If these guys were serious about changing society for the better, then they would use their power and money to do just that, instead of half arsed promises. My cycnicism is born out of living in a world of starvation, war, disease and many other traints caused by a corrupt, unjust system.

daviesee

meursault wrote:

I spose if I was Billy boy, I could spare some loose change, and some nice rhetoric regarding diseases. If these guys were serious about changing society for the better, then they would use their power and money to do just that, instead of half arsed promises. My cycnicism is born out of living in a world of starvation, war, disease and many other traints caused by a corrupt, unjust system.

Half arsed promises?
Try £30 billion.
Still, that may not tie in with your view of the rich so carry on ranting.

Frank the tank

meursault wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

meursault wrote:

It's guilt, and the realisation that chasing the dollar was a life wasted.

Apologies M, but I think that's cynical rubbish. I don't know any billionaires, but the people I know who give to charity or work for charities are mostly sincere and happy to give. Having seen Bill Gates recent talk on the eradication of polio and five other diseases, I think he is sincere and determined in his approach to his mission. These guys aren't jumping on any bandwagon that I'm aware of.

I spose if I was Billy boy, I could spare some loose change, and some nice rhetoric regarding diseases. If these guys were serious about changing society for the better, then they would use their power and money to do just that, instead of half arsed promises. My cycnicism is born out of living in a world of starvation, war, disease and many other traints caused by a corrupt, unjust system.

Could tie that post into the Paxman v Brand thread.

HOW would the re-distribution of wealth be achieved? I'd love to see it done, but, how, is the real challange.

Mikey23

That was my question...

Time for the proletariat to rise up against the bourgeoisie perhaps

meursault

Indeed, as I said, you can't reform so revolution is the way to go. It's not such a leap of imagination that this mode of production is out of date.

meursault

daviesee wrote:

meursault wrote:

I spose if I was Billy boy, I could spare some loose change, and some nice rhetoric regarding diseases. If these guys were serious about changing society for the better, then they would use their power and money to do just that, instead of half arsed promises. My cycnicism is born out of living in a world of starvation, war, disease and many other traints caused by a corrupt, unjust system.

Half arsed promises?
Try £30 billion.
Still, that may not tie in with your view of the rich so carry on ranting.

You probably mean $, and If I 'earnt' an estimated $7.8 billion a year I could give you $30 billion without worrying about it too much. But I take your point, I just don't have the confidence you do, that Gates is going to save us all.

daviesee

meursault wrote:

You probably mean $, and If I 'earnt' an estimated $7.8 billion a year I could give you $30 billion without worrying about it too much. But I take your point, I just don't have the confidence you do, that Gates is going to save us all.

Nope.
$56 billion.
Try again.

Mikey23

Don't have overwhelming confidence that Gatesy and his mates are going to save the world but I was interested in the foundation website which seems to be promoting philanthropy as a movement for social change. Given that we are stuck with western global capitalism I was wondering whether individuals making pots of money and giving away has any validity. Feeney has expressed his motivation but there is nowt I can find about gates other than being challenged by kids working on rubbish heaps to stay alive.

I find it all a little bit creepy to be honest but I was wondering what you guys think of it in the context of the original post

Mikey23

... And to get back to the original question, it seems to be a combination of dissatisfaction with the pointlessness of making loads of dosh for no other reason that you can, and perhaps a significant moment in your life. For Feeney in the article I would say it was catholic roots, for gates it was kids staying alive by working on rubbish tips. Neither seem to be boasting about it...

meursault

daviesee wrote:

meursault wrote:

You probably mean $, and If I 'earnt' an estimated $7.8 billion a year I could give you $30 billion without worrying about it too much. But I take your point, I just don't have the confidence you do, that Gates is going to save us all.

Nope.
$56 billion.
Try again.

Meh, loose change by his standards.

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

... And to get back to the original question, it seems to be a combination of dissatisfaction with the pointlessness of making loads of dosh for no other reason that you can, and perhaps a significant moment in your life. For Feeney in the article I would say it was catholic roots, for gates it was kids staying alive by working on rubbish tips. Neither seem to be boasting about it...

Either way, are we reduced to waiting for the benevolence of rich people to solve our problems? I sincerley hope there is a better way.

Mikey23

So forgetting for a moment how many zillions of dollars these guys have to start with, aren't they just doing the same as we do when we decide whether to stick our coins in the tins for the air ambulance or the children's hospice or help for heroes? I think it's too easy to be cynical. If gatesy uses his dosh to stop polio and malaria in the third world then who gives a fudge his personal agenda

Mikey23

... Which appears to be that 'every human being is equally important' I would buy into that wouldn't you?

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

... Which appears to be that 'every human being is equally important' I would buy into that wouldn't you?

Yes, in the bigger picture, just that I am not comfortable doffing my cap to Gates or Lord Smithklinebeecham or whoever in the process. What you call my cynicism, I call your naivety in hoping the captains of industry are going to be nice to us. They may grant us concessions to avoid losing power and wealth, but they get it back over time.

mrfpb

Mikey23 wrote:

So forgetting for a moment how many zillions of dollars these guys have to start with, aren't they just doing the same as we do when we decide whether to stick our coins in the tins for the air ambulance or the children's hospice or help for heroes?

Yep, that's why I said "all the people I know" in my earlier post.

meursault wrote:

My cycnicism is born out of living in a world of starvation, war, disease and many other traints caused by a corrupt, unjust system.

Odd that, because everyone on this forum lives in the same world as you, so maybe that justification is just a cop out.

meursault wrote:

and If I 'earnt' an estimated $7.8 billion a year I could give you $30 billion without worrying about it too much.

There's a world of difference between 'could' and 'did'. Let us know when you give four times your income in charitable donations.

I do have some cynicism of my own. Bill Gates charitable giving doesn't get him off for Microsoft's bullying small time software developers out of business. I'm just pleased he is dedicated to eradicating diseases that kill the worlds poorest people rather than buying football teams.

meursault

mrfpb wrote:

Odd that, because everyone on this forum lives in the same world as you, so maybe that justification is just a cop out.

Maybe it is?

mrfpb wrote:

There's a world of difference between 'could' and 'did'. Let us know when you give four times your income in charitable donations.

I do have some cynicism of my own. Bill Gates charitable giving doesn't get him off for Microsoft's bullying small time software developers out of business. I'm just pleased he is dedicated to eradicating diseases that kill the worlds poorest people rather than buying football teams.

I don't agree, there comes a point (in the billions) where scale plays a part. Four times my income is not the same as four times many billions. It's all just zeroes to Gates, it has no worth or value.

Mikey23

I certainly wouldn't doff my cap to gatesy or anyone. If I met him in the street (which is unlikely) I might shake his hand and say well done with the polio thing but that would be about it. In fact it doesn't matter a jot whether it's his money or someone else's as long as someone has done something to save irradiate disease and poverty in the third world. And I do have a small idea of how twh world works so hopefully not that naive...

Mikey23

@m ... So where would you say the cut off point is between our income and say bill gates income, his philanthropy and ours, and where it starts to have worth or value. And what proportion of the 'problem' would he and his billions be able to fix in a global context?

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

@m ... So where would you say the cut off point is between our income and say bill gates income, his philanthropy and ours, and where it starts to have worth or value. And what proportion of the 'problem' would he and his billions be able to fix in a global context?

When having more money is meaningless. Whether it means more for us to spend eight hours working a soup kitchen versus his giving billions away is debatable.

For me, it's a political issue. I was politicised during the miners strike back in the 80's, I read literature to determine the best philosophy and ideology available. The result is viewing the world and reality on a class basis. Capitalism is designed for the benefit of the ruling class paid for by the working class. I appreciate there is enough suffering in the world without my cynicism adding to the malaise, but it's how I view reality. If others believe that Gates and his ilk are our salvation then best of luck to you, I hope you are right.

Mikey23

I was on the team paying out social security benefits to the families of striking miners in the Kent coalfields. It was heartbreaking to see these guys fighting what was so obviously a lost cause and to see their lives crumbling around them.

Mikey23

and if we think of philanthropy as time rather than money then things are much more equal... i have as much of it as everyone else

daviesee

meursault wrote:

The result is viewing the world and reality on a class basis. Capitalism is designed for the benefit of the ruling class paid for by the working class.

Small points.
The majority of the Worlds population do not live under Capitalism.
And yet there is still class systems worldwide.
And yet there is no utopia.

Mikey23

Not sure it was 'designed' either. My understanding is that it has evolved over time. I think there is evidence that in the Middle Ages it was used as a means of sharing production and wealth...

meursault

daviesee wrote:

meursault wrote:

The result is viewing the world and reality on a class basis. Capitalism is designed for the benefit of the ruling class paid for by the working class.

Small points.
The majority of the Worlds population do not live under Capitalism.
And yet there is still class systems worldwide.
And yet there is no utopia.

I spose it depends on your exact definition but I diasgree, apart from a few small states, everydody else is capitalist including China as most of their output coming from industries in private property trading and setting prices on a free market by the laws of supply and demand, and have a legal framework geared to protecting and encouraging such a system of production.

Yes, capitalism is a class system.

Nobody mentioned anything about utopia. Capitalism is negated by the next progressive mode of production (only communism so far proposed) then this gets negated by the next and so on.

Mikey23

Empires rise and empires fall. Tis all the blink of an eye in the history of the universe...

daviesee

We are all seeking the answer.
But we do not even know the question.

VTech

It doesn't matter wether you think bill does it for personal or public gain. Fact is, he does it and people benefit.
£50m for Aston university alone helps tens of thousands just like Elizabeth Cadbury built the QE hospital and same Elizabeth school.

If you give and it helps others that is a great thing.
The ulternative is doing nothing and talking shiat about it on the Internet.

meursault

VTech wrote:

It doesn't matter wether you think bill does it for personal or public gain. Fact is, he does it and people benefit.
£50m for Aston university alone helps tens of thousands just like Elizabeth Cadbury built the QE hospital and same Elizabeth school.

If you give and it helps others that is a great thing.
The ulternative is doing nothing and talking shiat about it on the Internet.

It matters to me.

There are more than enough resources existing in the world now, to pay for every human being to be fed, housed and educated and much more. The problem is a tiny minority like Gates has all the money. We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system. So, no it isn't a great thing.

daviesee

meursault wrote:

We can either wait for these people to decide to help the rest of us, or we can implement a better system.

Such as?