Poppy Appeal

arran77

So the Poppy Appeal started today, what does everyone think of it, do you wear your poppy with pride?

I do even though apart from Grandparents no one in my family has been in any of the Armed Forces.

Some people may think of it as an outdated idea but surely now it remembers all those who have given their lives for this country and not just those who fought in the two World Wars?

Discuss.

daviesee

The main thing to remember is that it is about those in the field.
It is about men and women, individuals. Not the cause. Nor those who sent them there.

meursault

Personal choice. Our parentage didn't defeat fascism to be told what charities to support or not.

the playing mantis

It shows a respect to all those who have risked and even given up their lives in the service of this country with thé ultimate aim of protecting the rest of us and maintaining the way of life and relative freedoms we enjoy in the UK. Whether you agree with war, or only certain wars or are a pacifist and think war is never the solution, that is irrelevant to the fact these people gave their lives in service. They may not have agreed with thé cause themselves in some cases but they fought for the rest of us, and thats what this is about, the people, not the reasons, as such I think anyone who is against the charity is missing the point and should possibly reconsider all the liberties and freedom they experience here and just how much they value them. My late grandfather was a guardsmen and in the BEF evacuated from Dunkirk, but even if I had no military connection in my family I would feel the same.

Edit, fackin phones!

city_boy

the playing mantis wrote:

It shows a respect to all those who have risked and even given up their lives in the service of this country with thé ultimate aim of protecting the rest of us and maintaining the way of life and relative freedoms we enjoy in the UK. Whether you agree with war, or only certain wars or are a pacifist and think war is never the solution, that is irrelevant to the fact these people gave their lives in service. They may not have agreed with thé cause themselves in some cases but they fought for the rest of us, and thats what this is about, the people, not the reasons, as such I think anyone who is against the charity is missing the point and should possibly reconsider all the liberties and freedom they experience here and just how much they value them. My late grandfather was a guardsmen and in the BEF evacuated from Dunkirk, but even if I had no militarybconnecyion in my family I would feel the same.

^^^THIS

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

arran77

meursault wrote:

Personal choice. Our parentage didn't defeat fascism to be told what charities to support or not.

Defeating fascism as you put it means that in this country we do have a level of freedom that we may otherwise not enjoy so surely people should be thankful for that?

You're right that we should not be told what charities to support or not, it is personal choice but surely the Poppy Appeal goes way beyond being just a charity it is a mark of respect and gratitude for the sacrifices that others made, and continue to make, so that you do have your free choice.

mamba80

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

Although I don't agree with you I can respect your right to hold such views. The Poppy Appeal is to show respect for the servicemen who fortunately for the rest of us, including you, did what was necessary to safeguard our way of life. The fact that you can not find it within you to show respect is regrettable.
Your last sentence shows you to be, well, the most charitable word I will use is naive.

the playing mantis

arran77 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Personal choice. Our parentage didn't defeat fascism to be told what charities to support or not.

Defeating fascism as you put it means that in this country we do have a level of freedom that we may otherwise not enjoy so surely people should be thankful for that?

You're right that we should not be told what charities to support or not, it is personal choice but surely the Poppy Appeal goes way beyond being just a charity it is a mark of respect and gratitude for the sacrifices that others made, and continue to make, so that you do have your free choice.

its not just about defeating fascism that is just one scenario.

regardless of your views its the people doing the job

the playing mantis

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

Although I don't agree with you I can respect your right to hold such views. The Poppy Appeal is to show respect for the servicemen who fortunately for the rest of us, including you, did what was necessary to safeguard our way of life. The fact that you can not find it within you to show respect is regrettable.
Your last sentence shows you to be, well, the most charitable word I will use is naive.

you put that better than me bally, i would have said that post was utter bollox :roll:

ballysmate

the playing mantis wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

Although I don't agree with you I can respect your right to hold such views. The Poppy Appeal is to show respect for the servicemen who fortunately for the rest of us, including you, did what was necessary to safeguard our way of life. The fact that you can not find it within you to show respect is regrettable.
Your last sentence shows you to be, well, the most charitable word I will use is naive.

you put that better than me bally, i would have said that post was utter bollox :roll:

On reflection, yes, it was utter bollox.

city_boy

mamba80 wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

Like Bally, I respect your right to your own view. And I am proud that we live in a country where you have the freedom of thought and speech to hold and express those opinions.

I, however, can't agree with the premise that one would choose to protest at the the fact that the Government is not, in some instances, prepared to offer adequate help and support to our service men and women, by refusing to offer any help to our service men and women or even to show any appreciation of what they have done!

For me the poppy appeal is twofold:
1. To make a donation in order that help and support can be provided to those that need (and have undoubtedly earned) it most; and
2. It is a recognised way for society to demonstrate its respect and appreciation for the sacrifices made by others on our behalf to protect and preserve the freedoms we continue to enjoy.

arran77

mamba80 wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

I thought this topic might at some point bring up opinions like this and of course you are entitled to that opinion but as I've said before, without people giving their lives for this country you may well not have had the freedom to have had such an opinion.

As others have said, that last statement is naive to say the least, we can not change the past or the decisions / choices that were made by this country's leaders but surely showing your respect for the consequences (ie people loosing their lives) of these choices is what the Poppy Appeal is about :roll:

meursault

arran77 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Personal choice. Our parentage didn't defeat fascism to be told what charities to support or not.

Defeating fascism as you put it means that in this country we do have a level of freedom that we may otherwise not enjoy so surely people should be thankful for that?

You're right that we should not be told what charities to support or not, it is personal choice but surely the Poppy Appeal goes way beyond being just a charity it is a mark of respect and gratitude for the sacrifices that others made, and continue to make, so that you do have your free choice.

I agree it is more than just a charity, though other charities may protest their importance and their place in the greater scheme of things. There are also other ways to mark respect and gratitude, you may give your time and resources to Help for Heroes, all year round for example.

My original premise still stands, personal choice.

mamba80

Suicide rates, mental illness, prison, wait in line health care, homelessness and poverty are how this country (ie its citizens, you an i) "rewards" its ex servicemen and women and it always has, judging on how members of my family have been treated, from WW1 through to NI.
Whilst its leaders shed crocodile tears on the 11/11 thats whats utter bollox and by unconditional support once a year, you just encourage them.

If the poppy appeal was extras for these guys then we could all wear a poppy with pride but its not, its to provide basic services, that the Government, through general taxation should provide.
Im guessing that no one would support a 1p in the £ tax increase for this? i would, infact i d support far far more.

The dead do not know that you are showing respect do they? they died for their childrens and our futures and can anyone say that the way the state treats its ex service men, makes this country proud?

Just one thing, where did i say i didnt care, show respect or support any charitable giving?

the OP asked about wearing a poppy with pride and i dont and if i did, it wouldnt be with pride in the way this country treats its ex servicemen.
I am just sick to death of hand wringing once a year, these guys need help and support 365/24/7

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

Suicide rates, mental illness, prison, wait in line health care, homelessness and poverty are how this country (ie its citizens, you an i) "rewards" its ex servicemen and women and it always has, judging on how members of my family have been treated, from WW1 through to NI.
Whilst its leaders shed crocodile tears on the 11/11 thats whats utter bollox and by unconditional support once a year, you just encourage them.

If the poppy appeal was extras for these guys then we could all wear a poppy with pride but its not, its to provide basic services, that the Government, through general taxation should provide.
Im guessing that no one would support a 1p in the £ tax increase for this? i would, infact i d support far far more.

The dead do not know that you are showing respect do they? they died for their childrens and our futures and can anyone say that the way the state treats its ex service men, makes this country proud?

Just one thing, where did i say i didnt care, show respect or support any charitable giving?

the OP asked about wearing a poppy with pride and i dont and if i did, it wouldnt be with pride in the way this country treats its ex servicemen.
I am just sick to death of hand wringing once a year, these guys need help and support 365/24/7

All these problems will be faced by ex-servicemen to varying degrees, and yes the State should do more to look after them.
Do you honestly think that not having a Poppy Appeal or the work of the Royal British Legion would alter the mindset of politicians when it comes to sending troops to war? Of course not!
As regards the appeal providing extras that the State should fund, you could level this criticism at all charities, be it Cancer Research, Age Concern...whatever. In this way you are absolving yourself of the need to support any charity.
Yes, the Legion needs help 365 days a year, but nothing stops anyone contributing any time they want.
Wearing the poppy is not to signify that you have done your bit for charity, it is to show respect for what these men and women endured.
Again you are right insofar that the dead are just that, dead. But I wear a poppy to show that I am proud of what people did and are doing for me, not for how the country treats ex-serviceman.
There was an old guy who used to come into the WMC local to me. He died recently. As a young man, he took part in the glider invasions of Sicily, Normandy and Arnheim, where he was captured. He had previously been captured in Sicily but escaped. I am proud to remember George, an ordinary bloke who had to do extra ordinary things. I will wear my poppy and think of George and his mates and remember them with pride.
As i said earlier, I respect your right to have such views. I have had arguments and debates on here with quite a few people, but congratulations Mamba. In almost 2000 posts, you are the first one that I have found that I can no longer be ar5ed bothering with, though I know that won't cause you any sleepless nights.

spen666

mamba80 wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Personally, I support the poppy appeal and Help for Heroes whenever I can. I have a huge respect for all our service men and women, past and present who are brave enough to stand on the front line and put their lives at risk to defend our nation's freedom and interests.

I find it appalling when they lose their lives or suffer injury only for them and their families to be abandoned by the very politicians who sent them into battle in the first place.

I'll be wearing my poppy.

For these very reasons i dont wear a poppy, i resent very strongly that Governments send men to die and then rely on charity to pick up the pieces.
By supporting these appeals, we are all just helping them get away with this fraud.

I understand your sentiment, but by exercising your right not to support those charities, you are hurting the victims, not the government.

jordan_217

upperoilcan

I always support the Poppy appeal purely out of respect for those who lost their lives fighting for the way of life we have now,although I sometimes think they must turn in their graves at just what this country/world has become.

meursault

upperoilcan wrote:

I always support the Poppy appeal purely out of respect for those who lost their lives fighting for the way of life we have now,although I sometimes think they must turn in their graves at just what this country/world has become.

This isn't meant as a personal attack, but it could be argued you fall into the absolving responsibility camp. Eg. If you spend £1 on a poppy thats 0.000000000000000000001p for all the war dead. You could say that isn't very respectful.

The point I am making, is that charities exist because the system of society is not capable of supporting itself. This is where the problem lies. So while it may absolve some personal guilt to donate, it perpetuates a bad system, as an earlier poster pointed out.

arran77

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Suicide rates, mental illness, prison, wait in line health care, homelessness and poverty are how this country (ie its citizens, you an i) "rewards" its ex servicemen and women and it always has, judging on how members of my family have been treated, from WW1 through to NI.
Whilst its leaders shed crocodile tears on the 11/11 thats whats utter bollox and by unconditional support once a year, you just encourage them.

If the poppy appeal was extras for these guys then we could all wear a poppy with pride but its not, its to provide basic services, that the Government, through general taxation should provide.
Im guessing that no one would support a 1p in the £ tax increase for this? i would, infact i d support far far more.

The dead do not know that you are showing respect do they? they died for their childrens and our futures and can anyone say that the way the state treats its ex service men, makes this country proud?

Just one thing, where did i say i didnt care, show respect or support any charitable giving?

the OP asked about wearing a poppy with pride and i dont and if i did, it wouldnt be with pride in the way this country treats its ex servicemen.
I am just sick to death of hand wringing once a year, these guys need help and support 365/24/7

All these problems will be faced by ex-servicemen to varying degrees, and yes the State should do more to look after them.
Do you honestly think that not having a Poppy Appeal or the work of the Royal British Legion would alter the mindset of politicians when it comes to sending troops to war? Of course not!
As regards the appeal providing extras that the State should fund, you could level this criticism at all charities, be it Cancer Research, Age Concern...whatever. In this way you are absolving yourself of the need to support any charity.
Yes, the Legion needs help 365 days a year, but nothing stops anyone contributing any time they want.
Wearing the poppy is not to signify that you have done your bit for charity, it is to show respect for what these men and women endured.
Again you are right insofar that the dead are just that, dead. But I wear a poppy to show that I am proud of what people did and are doing for me, not for how the country treats ex-serviceman.
There was an old guy who used to come into the WMC local to me. He died recently. As a young man, he took part in the glider invasions of Sicily, Normandy and Arnheim, where he was captured. He had previously been captured in Sicily but escaped. I am proud to remember George, an ordinary bloke who had to do extra ordinary things. I will wear my poppy and think of George and his mates and remember them with pride.
As i said earlier, I respect your right to have such views. I have had arguments and debates on here with quite a few people, but congratulations Mamba. In almost 2000 posts, you are the first one that I have found that I can no longer be ar5ed bothering with, though I know that won't cause you any sleepless nights.

Got to agree with you Bally, while everyone has a right to their own opinion I can't help but feel that Mamba's attitude rather smacks at cutting off your nose to spite your face :roll:

Like you say any charity needs support throughout the year and the causes that I choose to support do get donations from me all year round, the poppy is not worn to show that you have contributed financially it is a symbol of respect and thanks in my opinion.

By wearing a poppy (or not) will have no impact what-so-ever on the decision that Government makes, the only people who will suffer are those that the Poppy Appeal is designed to assist and support

mamba80

[quote="Ballysmate. As i said earlier, I respect your right to have such views. I have had arguments and debates on here with quite a few people, but congratulations Mamba. In almost 2000 posts, you are the first one that I have found that I can no longer be ar5ed bothering with, though I know that won't cause you any sleepless nights.[/quote]


Reading through your posts, i dont think we are as far aprt as you believe, we both want better treatment, better facilities, respect and more state support for ex service men and women.
Its how those aims are achived is the difference really.

But the nature of forums is sleepness nights for some.

Cygnus

You don't have to wear a poppy if you don't want to. There are many other ways to show respect, or even just being knowledgeable of what happened in previous wars is good enough respect imo.

Frank the tank

Either buy a poppy and wear it, or don't.

It's as simple as that, we all know what it's about. There is no debate to be had really folks.

Personally I always buy one and last year I bought Mrs Tank a really nice jewelled broach poppy. FWIW.

Crankbrother

Hate the way tv folks are 'made' to wear one ... Several instances of folks being kicked off telly for refusing to wear one ... especially by BBC ...

rick_chasey

Of course it shows respect.

Not wearing one however should not be considered disrespectful.

mamba80

In case anyone thinks a internet forum wont change anyones mind - i just bought a poppy for the 1st time in years.... and i did feel a sense of pride as... in their deeds, not the countries or let alone the Government.

Pross

Frank the tank wrote:

Either buy a poppy and wear it, or don't.

It's as simple as that, we all know what it's about. There is no debate to be had really folks.

Personally I always buy one and last year I bought Mrs Tank a really nice jewelled broach poppy. FWIW.

I'm still not sure about the poppy being made into fashion accessories. It's good if it raises more money but in terms of the symbolic nature I would rather people wear one for what it means and not how it looks.

I always get one, it's the least I can do to show support for the current armed forces and those who have previously given their lives. They don't decide which battles they are sent to fight. My main problem is they always get curled up and I feel disrespectful wearing one in that way.

meursault

mamba80 wrote:

In case anyone thinks a internet forum wont change anyones mind - i just bought a poppy for the 1st time in years.... and i did feel a sense of pride as... in their deeds, not the countries or let alone the Government.

Actually lifted my heart reading that. Not that it was the internet, but your willingness to try something new, and it felt good. More power to you.

Frank the tank

Pross wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Either buy a poppy and wear it, or don't.

It's as simple as that, we all know what it's about. There is no debate to be had really folks.

Personally I always buy one and last year I bought Mrs Tank a really nice jewelled broach poppy. FWIW.

I'm still not sure about the poppy being made into fashion accessories. It's good if it raises more money but in terms of the symbolic nature I would rather people wear one for what it means and not how it looks.

I always get one, it's the least I can do to show support for the current armed forces and those who have previously given their lives. They don't decide which battles they are sent to fight. My main problem is they always get curled up and I feel disrespectful wearing one in that way.

Never looked at it as a fashion accessory, Mrs Tank expressed a desire for a bejewelled poppy and I thought "why not", money for a good cause and a nice broach to boot, result all round.

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

In case anyone thinks a internet forum wont change anyones mind - i just bought a poppy for the 1st time in years.... and i did feel a sense of pride as... in their deeds, not the countries or let alone the Government.

Well done, Mamba. Not for buying the poppy, although I am glad you get to feel pride in wearing it. But well done for coming back and saying that you have had a change of heart. Chapeau sir.

Our next project is to get Frank the Tank to vote Tory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYhNHhxN0A