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Frame warranty replacment - potential dogs dinner!

msyatesmsyates Posts: 4
edited October 2013 in MTB general
Zesty 514 Frame currently back at bike shop awaiting warranty decision on cracked swing arm. Shop says that due to it being a 2010 model they may not have a replacement part or 2010 frame to replace so might replace with 2014 frame. On face of it sounds good but..... 2014 bike is quite different to my 2010 model - 27.5" wheels, tapered, 150mm not 140mm travel, bolt through rear wheel. Then there's the colour - 2010 is all white - white forks, white and blue brakes etc. New model is black with black forks. If they do replace with 2014 frame I'm afraid it's not only going to look like a dogs dinner but the geometry is going to be wrong too. Anyone had similar issues and have any advice in case.
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  • jimothy78jimothy78 Posts: 1,407
    Easy fix - sell new frame brand new, buy secondhand 2010 frame, tidy profit.
  • Broken Zesty???? But they have such a reputation for being solid.
  • I would wait and see what they offer. You may well end up with a complete bike due to the wheel sizing
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  • Interesting, be good to keep this updated - curious as to how good their warranty is! I would guess your looking at a complete new bike if they cannot supply a 26" frame - from a cost view it's probably the cheapest option.
  • I can't see them bolting 26" kit onto a 650b frame however small the difference.
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  • There are still 2013 frames floating around for warranty replacement. As for the difference in dropout design and headset, Lapierre will usually supply the correct parts FOC with the frame to make sure your current parts fit the new frame. As for the colour, sadly there is little that can be done about that
  • msyates wrote:
    Zesty 514 Frame currently back at bike shop awaiting warranty decision on cracked swing arm. Shop says that due to it being a 2010 model they may not have a replacement part or 2010 frame to replace so might replace with 2014 frame. On face of it sounds good but..... 2014 bike is quite different to my 2010 model - 27.5" wheels, tapered, 150mm not 140mm travel, bolt through rear wheel. Then there's the colour - 2010 is all white - white forks, white and blue brakes etc. New model is black with black forks. If they do replace with 2014 frame I'm afraid it's not only going to look like a dogs dinner but the geometry is going to be wrong too. Anyone had similar issues and have any advice in case.

    The warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer/importer. The bike shop are just acting as an agent for them and will bill them the costs inured. What the bike shop will and wont do, isnt the issue. The manufactures is bound by what ever the terms of the contract are, if that is to replace like for like, than that is what they must do. Do not be fobbed of with some Franken bike
  • heez29heez29 Posts: 612
    slickmouse wrote:
    msyates wrote:
    Zesty 514 Frame currently back at bike shop awaiting warranty decision on cracked swing arm. Shop says that due to it being a 2010 model they may not have a replacement part or 2010 frame to replace so might replace with 2014 frame. On face of it sounds good but..... 2014 bike is quite different to my 2010 model - 27.5" wheels, tapered, 150mm not 140mm travel, bolt through rear wheel. Then there's the colour - 2010 is all white - white forks, white and blue brakes etc. New model is black with black forks. If they do replace with 2014 frame I'm afraid it's not only going to look like a dogs dinner but the geometry is going to be wrong too. Anyone had similar issues and have any advice in case.

    The warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer/importer. The bike shop are just acting as an agent for them and will bill them the costs inured. What the bike shop will and wont do, isnt the issue. The manufactures is bound by what ever the terms of the contract are, if that is to replace like for like, than that is what they must do. Do not be fobbed of with some Franken bike

    Wrong. Contract is between you and the shop.
  • slickmouse wrote:
    The warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer/importer. The bike shop are just acting as an agent for them and will bill them the costs inured. What the bike shop will and wont do, isnt the issue. The manufactures is bound by what ever the terms of the contract are, if that is to replace like for like, than that is what they must do. Do not be fobbed of with some Franken bike

    To add to what heez29 wrote, the shop is not bound to replace like for like either. They can replace with the nearest equivalent if the original item is no longer available. A few sweet words and maybe some biscuits for the guys in the bike shop and they may try a source you a more preferable colour. Go in like a bull in a china shop, spouting you know this and that and you may just get what ever the importer supplies.
  • IDaveIDave Posts: 223
    heez29 wrote:
    slickmouse wrote:
    msyates wrote:
    Zesty 514 Frame currently back at bike shop awaiting warranty decision on cracked swing arm. Shop says that due to it being a 2010 model they may not have a replacement part or 2010 frame to replace so might replace with 2014 frame. On face of it sounds good but..... 2014 bike is quite different to my 2010 model - 27.5" wheels, tapered, 150mm not 140mm travel, bolt through rear wheel. Then there's the colour - 2010 is all white - white forks, white and blue brakes etc. New model is black with black forks. If they do replace with 2014 frame I'm afraid it's not only going to look like a dogs dinner but the geometry is going to be wrong too. Anyone had similar issues and have any advice in case.

    The warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer/importer. The bike shop are just acting as an agent for them and will bill them the costs inured. What the bike shop will and wont do, isnt the issue. The manufactures is bound by what ever the terms of the contract are, if that is to replace like for like, than that is what they must do. Do not be fobbed of with some Franken bike

    Wrong. Contract is between you and the shop.

    I think slickmouse is right here. I have never had to return a bike but I've had to return my fair share of electronic goods - and it has always been the manufacturer who has provided the replacement, not the shop I purchased it in.

    It's called a 'Manufacturers Warranty' after all.
  • But the purchaser's conract is with the retailer, not the manufacturer - he's right about that. A lot depends on whether the defective item is more or less than 6 months old.
  • heez29heez29 Posts: 612
    IDave wrote:
    heez29 wrote:
    slickmouse wrote:
    msyates wrote:
    Zesty 514 Frame currently back at bike shop awaiting warranty decision on cracked swing arm. Shop says that due to it being a 2010 model they may not have a replacement part or 2010 frame to replace so might replace with 2014 frame. On face of it sounds good but..... 2014 bike is quite different to my 2010 model - 27.5" wheels, tapered, 150mm not 140mm travel, bolt through rear wheel. Then there's the colour - 2010 is all white - white forks, white and blue brakes etc. New model is black with black forks. If they do replace with 2014 frame I'm afraid it's not only going to look like a dogs dinner but the geometry is going to be wrong too. Anyone had similar issues and have any advice in case.

    The warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer/importer. The bike shop are just acting as an agent for them and will bill them the costs inured. What the bike shop will and wont do, isnt the issue. The manufactures is bound by what ever the terms of the contract are, if that is to replace like for like, than that is what they must do. Do not be fobbed of with some Franken bike

    Wrong. Contract is between you and the shop.

    I think slickmouse is right here. I have never had to return a bike but I've had to return my fair share of electronic goods - and it has always been the manufacturer who has provided the replacement, not the shop I purchased it in.

    It's called a 'Manufacturers Warranty' after all.

    This may happen but it shouldn't. It's usually the easiest way for the shop to get the job done as all they have to do is send it away, etc. However your contract is between you and the shop. You bought it from the shop, not the supplier/manufacturer.
  • b45herb45her Posts: 147
    the warranty is with the manufacturer/distributor, in the case of most failures photo's of the failure are sent to the distributor and they make the decision on what happens, usually all the parts needed to make a newer frame compatible are supplied.
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  • heez29 wrote:
    IDave wrote:
    heez29 wrote:
    slickmouse wrote:
    msyates wrote:
    Zesty 514 Frame currently back at bike shop awaiting warranty decision on cracked swing arm. Shop says that due to it being a 2010 model they may not have a replacement part or 2010 frame to replace so might replace with 2014 frame. On face of it sounds good but..... 2014 bike is quite different to my 2010 model - 27.5" wheels, tapered, 150mm not 140mm travel, bolt through rear wheel. Then there's the colour - 2010 is all white - white forks, white and blue brakes etc. New model is black with black forks. If they do replace with 2014 frame I'm afraid it's not only going to look like a dogs dinner but the geometry is going to be wrong too. Anyone had similar issues and have any advice in case.

    The warranty is a contract between you and the manufacturer/importer. The bike shop are just acting as an agent for them and will bill them the costs inured. What the bike shop will and wont do, isnt the issue. The manufactures is bound by what ever the terms of the contract are, if that is to replace like for like, than that is what they must do. Do not be fobbed of with some Franken bike

    Wrong. Contract is between you and the shop.

    I think slickmouse is right here. I have never had to return a bike but I've had to return my fair share of electronic goods - and it has always been the manufacturer who has provided the replacement, not the shop I purchased it in.

    It's called a 'Manufacturers Warranty' after all.

    This may happen but it shouldn't. It's usually the easiest way for the shop to get the job done as all they have to do is send it away, etc. However your contract is between you and the shop. You bought it from the shop, not the supplier/manufacturer.

    the WARRANTY is a contract is between you and the maker, the purchase contract is between you and the shop, a lot of shops try and get out of their responsibilities by deferring to the warranty period given by the manufacture.(try taking your lap top back to Currys at 13 months old and yo willl see what i mean). This isn't the case under the Sale of Goods Act and you can require the shop to make reasonable repairs well outside this period, dependent on what the items and how much it cost. BUT if you read the OP you will note its a WARRANTY claim on a 2010 bike

    If the word warranty wasn't enough of a clue, then the fact its a near 4 year old bike should be
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    You should never be referred by a retailer back to the manufacturer at any point. The warranty is still part of the sales contract that the retailer has sold you, albiet will be a 'manufacturers' warranty.

    Now if the shop has gone bust there still may be recourse - but warranties should still be pursued via the retailer. The manufacturer may decide to deal with you directly for convenience.
  • supersonic wrote:
    You should never be referred by a retailer back to the manufacturer at any point. The warranty is still part of the sales contract that the retailer has sold you, albiet will be a 'manufacturers' warranty.

    Now if the shop has gone bust there still may be recourse - but warranties should still be pursued via the retailer. The manufacturer may decide to deal with you directly for convenience.

    you can take your warranty to any '' authorised'' dealer or failing that, the manufacturer directly and have it honoured. It is, as I have i explained with great patience several times a contract between you and they, which is separate from and over and above your contract with the retailer
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    Good luck sending your Toyota back to Japan to have it fixed.
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  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    slickmouse wrote:
    supersonic wrote:
    You should never be referred by a retailer back to the manufacturer at any point. The warranty is still part of the sales contract that the retailer has sold you, albiet will be a 'manufacturers' warranty.

    Now if the shop has gone bust there still may be recourse - but warranties should still be pursued via the retailer. The manufacturer may decide to deal with you directly for convenience.

    you can take your warranty to any '' authorised'' dealer or failing that, the manufacturer directly and have it honoured. It is, as I have i explained with great patience several times a contract between you and they, which is separate from and over and above your contract with the retailer

    But the retailer is still the best person to approach. If the item is under warranty still, they cannot turn you over to the manufacturer should you decide to go the retailer (or a dealer authorised to act).

    You can go straight to the manufacturer should you so wish, (if the terms permit it), but usually the retailer first gets the best results. Hence why I said 'should'.
  • heez29heez29 Posts: 612
    slickmouse wrote:
    supersonic wrote:
    You should never be referred by a retailer back to the manufacturer at any point. The warranty is still part of the sales contract that the retailer has sold you, albiet will be a 'manufacturers' warranty.

    Now if the shop has gone bust there still may be recourse - but warranties should still be pursued via the retailer. The manufacturer may decide to deal with you directly for convenience.

    you can take your warranty to any '' authorised'' dealer or failing that, the manufacturer directly and have it honoured. It is, as I have i explained with great patience several times a contract between you and they, which is separate from and over and above your contract with the retailer

    Everytime I have went direct, they told me to go to the shop to let them deal with it.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    Because large manufacturers aren't geared up to deal with the public, hence distributors, wholesalers, retailers etc.
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  • cooldad wrote:
    Good luck sending your Toyota back to Japan to have it fixed.

    Why would I need to do that ? when TOYOTA have a UK company ?
  • supersonic wrote:
    slickmouse wrote:
    supersonic wrote:
    You should never be referred by a retailer back to the manufacturer at any point. The warranty is still part of the sales contract that the retailer has sold you, albiet will be a 'manufacturers' warranty.

    Now if the shop has gone bust there still may be recourse - but warranties should still be pursued via the retailer. The manufacturer may decide to deal with you directly for convenience.

    you can take your warranty to any '' authorised'' dealer or failing that, the manufacturer directly and have it honoured. It is, as I have i explained with great patience several times a contract between you and they, which is separate from and over and above your contract with the retailer

    But the retailer is still the best person to approach. If the item is under warranty still, they cannot turn you over to the manufacturer should you decide to go the retailer (or a dealer authorised to act).

    You can go straight to the manufacturer should you so wish, (if the terms permit it), but usually the retailer first gets the best results. Hence why I said 'should'.

    I dont disagree with that at all. The issue under discussion was whose responsibility is it to fix the bike to an acceptable standard , the retailer or the maker/importer. As its a warranty claim its the maker/importer who have to do so, if as suggested the shop are going to repair it with a later frame, then the matter needs to be raised with the maker/importer direct, as it will be them that any legal action is taken against. If he accept the repair as adequate then he is going to find his rights much reduced
  • IDaveIDave Posts: 223
    cooldad wrote:
    Good luck sending your Toyota back to Japan to have it fixed.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/ ... 1H20130926
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    The issue under discussion

    There is alwaysa a few of those ;-)
  • SOGA should give you up to 6 years guarantee on your frame 'based on being reasonable' The way they look at it is a £100 bike should last a little while, where as a £5,000 bike should last a little bit longer.
  • BigAlBigAl Posts: 3,122
    SOGA should give you up to 6 years guarantee on your frame 'based on being reasonable' The way they look at it is a £100 bike should last a little while, where as a £5,000 bike should last a little bit longer.

    Sort of......

    But, as always, the devil is in the detail.

    The SOGA legislation basically provides consumers withe the protection that any goods bought should be 'fit for purpose'. In many cases (for example, a television) 6 years is often stated as a reasonable life-span. However, there is a significant change after 6 months of ownership; within 6 months the seller needs to 'prove' that the failure was due to mis-use, etc and that the fault was not 'inherent' in the product. After 6 months, the buyer must prove that the fault was inherent and not down to mid-use.

    With a TV this is probably straightforward, less so with an item such as a mountain bike frame, which could have been used for purposes it was not designed for. (for example, if I took my Anthem down a 'Downhill' course and broke it, all bets are off'.)

    The SOGA can protect you - but you will need to push it. We had an LCD telly that broke after 15 months - it just died. The retailer didn't want to know (they would offer a 'good deal' on repairing it though :wink: ). I contacted the manufacturer (always write to the chairperson or MD, never customer services - they are trained to fob you off) and they agreed to 'fault find' the TV. Turned out to be a faulty PCB - i.e. an inherent, latent fault, and we got a full replacement.

    In this case, I would pursue it forcefully but politely with the retailer. Contact (MD or chair) of the manufacturer only if the retailer doesn't meet your expectation. Be clear as to what you want, and possibly open to some compromise. Pursued in this way, most claims end well

    You shoul note that I'm not a lawyer and the above is my understanding. If you need it, the Citizen's Advice Bureau can offer advice, and many employers, trades unions and even sometimes your home insurance company (depending on your policy) can offer legal advice (usually free)

    Good luck

    Al
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    The 6 years refers to the time you have to raise a claim, is not a guarantee period.
  • BigAlBigAl Posts: 3,122
    supersonic wrote:
    The 6 years refers to the time you have to raise a claim, is not a guarantee period.

    That may well be right. It's also often stated as a 'reasonable' lifespan for many consumer electronic items (TVs, DVD players, etc). But it's not a written rule and I would reckon the 'reasonable' lifespan of an MTB could be significantly less. And an expensive bike may well not have a longer 'reasonable' life than a cheap one - simply because it is probably used much harder.

    What's reasonable depends on how something is used. Even a cheap bike will last forever if just ridden down a canal tow path
  • Well back to the original post.

    I have had this exact thing happen this year. The chain stay on my 2010 514 cracked. I took it back to a Evans cycles as i now live 250 mile away from the shop i bought it. They then took it in and were supposed to contact Hotlines about it, due to a series of screw ups 3 weeks later and they finally send an email.

    Hotlines asked for pictures which Evans then sent,6 weeks later the assessor apparently finally finds time to look at the pictures and decides its a crack and a warranty issue. Evans rang and contacted me saying it will likely be a chain stay from a newer model at which point i asked him to enquire how much for a new frame. They got back to me and it was £300 for a new 2013 full carbon frame which i said yes to.

    Evans told me everything would be transferable apart from the rear axle and headset. I bought a new ck tapered headset from a friend and was going to buy a axle once it arrived and i knew what it needed.


    When the frame arrived i asked them to just install the headset and ill do the rest, after a 2 hour wait in the bike shop Evans tells me the headset is the wrong size and so is the one Lapierre supplied with the frame (which i wasn't told they would). Turned out the zesty uses a smaller outside diameter headset than most and hotlines didnt know this either hence the one coming with it not fitting either.

    Once i eventually received the new frame i found it included adapters for the rear axle to convert it to qr, the shock bushings were a different size and the front mech didnt work properly with the new style of cable routing( which is terrible with 2 right angles in the rear mech cable).

    All in all i was happy with the frame i got for £300 but the service from both Evans and Hotlines was terrible.
    Took me 14 weeks in total to get a working bike back in which time i bough a Dh bike to have something to ride.

    Hope you have a better experience than i did.

    The 2013 frame its very pretty and rides really well its just so badly designed. its massivly prone to cable rub that can destroy the frame at any moment and the cable routing is terrible, the rear mech has two sharp right angles in the cable around the chain stay making it very heavy and a little sluggish and the front enters the rear mech from below following another sharp 180 making it sluggish and will only get worse as it fills with water and dirt.

    Good luck
  • No word from the BS yet but thanks for all the posts so far. I remain worried both for the length of time this could take and also the outcome not being favourable :(
    I am surprised that more folk haven't faced the same issue with the rate of change of bikes and specs. Let me know if you have any similar experiences please good or bad .
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