Protein Recovery Drinks

phreak

How soon after you exercise do you need to exercise again for protein/a recovery meal to make any difference?

Grill

Within 10 minutes is best. The reason people go for drinks is that you'll absorb it quicker.

Tom Dean

I would think it makes a difference any time that subsequent sessions are affected by how recovered your are: nearly always if you are training regularly.

I also like Graeme Obree's suggestion, sardines on toast with tomato ketchup.

phreak

Grill wrote:

Within 10 minutes is best. The reason people go for drinks is that you'll absorb it quicker.

That wasn't what I meant, sorry. I meant how soon after the initial session do you need to train again for a dedicated recovery meal/drink to make any difference?

I mean if your next session is a week away then I'm sure you'd get all the food/rest you need from a normal diet to be recovered for the next go.

So, is a dedicated meal required for a 48hr window? A 24hr window? Training again the same day?

phreak

Tom Dean wrote:

I would think it makes a difference any time that subsequent sessions are affected by how recovered your are: nearly always if you are training regularly.

I also like Graeme Obree's suggestion, sardines on toast with tomato ketchup.

That's just it though isn't it? From what I can tell, eating something in that magic 30 minute window only speeds up the recovery, it doesn't make it better (from what I can tell).

So if speed is the only difference to eating a normal diet, there must be a frequency of training sessions for which it kinda becomes redundant.

If you train Monday/Wednesday/Friday for instance, is the 48 hours of rest between sessions not enough in itself to recover?

Grill

phreak wrote:

Grill wrote:

Within 10 minutes is best. The reason people go for drinks is that you'll absorb it quicker.

That wasn't what I meant, sorry. I meant how soon after the initial session do you need to train again for a dedicated recovery meal/drink to make any difference?

I mean if your next session is a week away then I'm sure you'd get all the food/rest you need from a normal diet to be recovered for the next go.

So, is a dedicated meal required for a 48hr window? A 24hr window? Training again the same day?

This really depends on your cycling fitness. I'm good to go the next day although I've done 2 sessions a day before (didn't feel like I dot much out of it).

Tom Dean

phreak wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

I would think it makes a difference any time that subsequent sessions are affected by how recovered your are: nearly always if you are training regularly.

I also like Graeme Obree's suggestion, sardines on toast with tomato ketchup.

That's just it though isn't it? From what I can tell, eating something in that magic 30 minute window only speeds up the recovery, it doesn't make it better (from what I can tell).

So if speed is the only difference to eating a normal diet, there must be a frequency of training sessions for which it kinda becomes redundant.

If you train Monday/Wednesday/Friday for instance, is the 48 hours of rest between sessions not enough in itself to recover?

Sooner=better and every little helps I would think. 48 hours is certainly short enough to carry some fatigue so any way you can minimise this has to be of benefit. Clearly the longer the gaps between sessions, the less the relative benefit will be.

I don't know how you would quantify any of this - I suppose if you are trying to control your overall calorie intake it is worth consideration.

apreading

I think speed of taking on these nutrients is not just to make sure you are ready to exercise again quicker.

I imagine that there is a period after strenuous exercise during which the body will try to make additional muscle mass, so that it is sronger next time. If you eat a 6 hours later, this period may have passed and your body didnt make that extra muscle because it didnt have the nutrients to do so.

Not starting to repair damaged muscle straight away becuase your body doesnt have the nutrients until some time later *could* also lead to less effective repair. (this may not be true - a guess on my part)

Also, if you are energy and glycogen depleted, and have little fat, in the absence of new carbs coming in quick, your body *could* take muscle to generate energy/replace glycogen? (this may not be true - a guess on my part)

Tjgoodhew

I dont train nearly as much as some people and now with the winter coming i will probably end up only riding at weeknds.

For me the need to recover quickly isnt about being able to train harder the next day - its more about not aching like a MF when im trying to sleep on Sunday nights and struggling to walk around on a Monday !!

Will my body recover in time for my next ride without any recovery - yes of course.

But i have found in my own personal experience - placebo effect or not, this seems to help with my recovery and with that being the case i am getting the desired results and i couldnt care less

BigFatBloke

apreading wrote:

I hear what you guys are saying BUT, just because a scientific study is fananced by a company with a vested interest in the outsome, that does not mean the method or conclusions are wrong. It may question the impartiality of the scientist(s) carrying out the study but it does not prove they are lying or deliberately misleading.

I choose to belive in general that protein helps with muscle repair and muscle growth - thats why body builders have been using it for years and it seems to work... http://www.mensfitness.com/nutrition/su ... ey-protein

I also choose to believe that taking on energy in some form helps replenish the bodies glycogen stores and be ready to use them again next time...

Whether you do the above by eating normal food that has those elements in it or use a more efficient way of delivering them without additional fat etc is entirely up to you.

A usual trick is to design the study in such a way as to show what they want to show. Do not trust anything these companies say.

apreading

BigFatBloke wrote:

A usual trick is to design the study in such a way as to show what they want to show. Do not trust anything these companies say.

Yes, but just as you should not assume it to be true, you should not assume it to be false either.

BigFatBloke

apreading wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

A usual trick is to design the study in such a way as to show what they want to show. Do not trust anything these companies say.

Yes, but just as you should not assume it to be true, you should not assume it to be false either.

You should also assume they only tell you about the studies they want you to see and keep shtum about the others.

The first source of protein should always be from real foods such as chicken, turkey, beef, pork, eggs, fish, nuts etc etc
eat real food., don't waste your money on protein shakes.

From the guff quoted a few posts ago.

Associated risks/scrutiny: Whey protein is likely safe for most adults. High doses can cause some side effects such as increased bowel movements, nausea, thirst, bloating, cramps, reduced appetite and tiredness. Migraines and headaches are also commonly listed but many experts blame the MSG that is sometimes hidden in whey protein as the trigger.

dw300

BigFatBloke wrote:

The first source of protein should always be from real foods such as chicken, turkey, beef, pork, eggs, fish, nuts etc etc
eat real food., don't waste your money on protein shakes.

I think you're entirely missing the point of why sports supps are considered unnecessary or bad. It isn't that they're not effective, its that they're misused by customers.

Protein Power can yield 80gms of protein for 45p, it'll have been engineered to have a good blend of aminos and proteins from different sources, may have microbiotics and fibre added, and sometimes a balance of carbs ad fats added that maximise absorption. For a cyclist that needs the protein with as few cals as possible, it pretty much cant be beaten for value.

Tom Dean

BigFatBloke wrote:

The first source of protein should always be from real foods such as chicken, turkey, beef, pork, eggs, fish, nuts etc etc
eat real food., don't waste your money on protein shakes.

So all the above are somehow more 'real' and therefore better? Drivel.

Protein drinks can be useful because they are convenient. It's not always easy to have a sunday roast while e.g. driving home from a race.

frisbee

Tom Dean wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

The first source of protein should always be from real foods such as chicken, turkey, beef, pork, eggs, fish, nuts etc etc
eat real food., don't waste your money on protein shakes.

So all the above are somehow more 'real' and therefore better? Drivel.

Protein drinks can be useful because they are convenient. It's not always easy to have a sunday roast while e.g. driving home from a race.

You would be topping team sky if you did though! Do you think there is a marginal gain to be made from fresh horse radish?

BigFatBloke

Tom Dean wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

The first source of protein should always be from real foods such as chicken, turkey, beef, pork, eggs, fish, nuts etc etc
eat real food., don't waste your money on protein shakes.

So all the above are somehow more 'real' and therefore better? Drivel.

Protein drinks can be useful because they are convenient. It's not always easy to have a sunday roast while e.g. driving home from a race.

I can see that if you can't afford decent food or are too stupid to bring some proper food with you and you prefer to drink some sugar flavoured waste product because you think it makes you faster and you are the sort of person who eats shit manufactured for common ignorant peasants with a low IQ then these drinks have a use.

And yes real food is better unless you have the taste buds of a pikey.

charlie_potatoes

BigFatBloke wrote:

And yes real food is better unless you have the taste buds of a pikey.

:shock:
I was already struggling to digest nutritional advice from a 'BigFatbloke'.
Ridiculous comments like this are not helping.

BigFatBloke

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports- ... ance-42022

Read this by these blokes below.


Kevin Tipton is a senior lecturer in exercise metabolism in the School of Sport and Exercise Sciences at the University of Birmingham UK

Asker Jeukendrup is professor of exercise metabolism at the University of Birmingham and has published over 150 research papers and books on exercise metabolism and nutrition, as well as being consultant to many elite athletes

apreading

BigFatBloke wrote:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-are-protein-drinks-effective-in-boosting-sports-performance-42022

Read this by these blokes below.


Kevin Tipton is a senior lecturer in exercise metabolism in the School of Sport and Exercise Sciences at the University of Birmingham UK

Asker Jeukendrup is professor of exercise metabolism at the University of Birmingham and has published over 150 research papers and books on exercise metabolism and nutrition, as well as being consultant to many elite athletes

Despite some rationale and even some evidence, we don’t feel that a solid recommendation for endurance athletes to ingest protein in addition to carbohydrate can be supported by the science.

So he acknowledges that there is some evidence and rationale - just not enough for him...

there’s simply no evidence that ingesting protein during exercise leads to better performance in that event

But thats not what anyone here is arguing - we are talking about for recovery after, not for performance during the event. So he is testing something quite different than the subject of this post.

phreak

Insufficient evidence against does not equate to sufficient evidence for either though does it? There still seems very little actual science out there showing how frequently you need to train for the magic meal to be worthwhile.

Suffice to say I do still tend to eat right after exercise if possible, but I've no idea if it actually makes much difference as I haven't been able to find any evidence that it does, least of all for amateurs like us who will probably have at least 24 hours before we train again.

I mean who can say with any confidence whether a meal right after the workout is better/worse than (for instance) an ice bath/massage/compression tights/a run of the mill cool down on the bike etc.?

BigFatBloke

apreading wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-are-protein-drinks-effective-in-boosting-sports-performance-42022

Read this by these blokes below.


Kevin Tipton is a senior lecturer in exercise metabolism in the School of Sport and Exercise Sciences at the University of Birmingham UK

Asker Jeukendrup is professor of exercise metabolism at the University of Birmingham and has published over 150 research papers and books on exercise metabolism and nutrition, as well as being consultant to many elite athletes

Despite some rationale and even some evidence, we don’t feel that a solid recommendation for endurance athletes to ingest protein in addition to carbohydrate can be supported by the science.

So he acknowledges that there is some evidence and rationale - just not enough for him...

there’s simply no evidence that ingesting protein during exercise leads to better performance in that event

But thats not what anyone here is arguing - we are talking about for recovery after, not for performance during the event. So he is testing something quite different than the subject of this post.

If you were to read the whole article you will see recovery is covered. You need to read it all the way through. Easy to see how easy you are to brainwash.

apreading

BigFatBloke wrote:

If you were to read the whole article you will see recovery is covered. You need to read it all the way through. Easy to see how easy you are to brainwash.

Yeah - only in as much to say that he hasnt tested for it, many other studies have concluded it to be beneficial, others havent proved it but none have disproved it - and that there is no downsite to hedging your bets and having protein/carbs after exercise.

Interestingly enough, the same web page links to http://www.pponline.co.uk/download/post ... eals-41680

Exercising burns up amino acids, glucose, and glycogen stored in the muscles. Upon completion, your muscles are more receptive to accepting nutrients that would restore and repair levels found in the muscles. Scientific studies show that consuming a carbohydrate/protein supplement within 30 minutes of completing exercise increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage. Replacing your glycogen storage levels quickly allows your body to recuperate faster and recharge your fuel system for the next workout or event.

In this free download, available to registered members of PP Online, we provide a series of recovery meal recommendations.

You are right - I didnt bother reading it, because I wasnt interested enough so just skipped to the conclusion. Now that I have read it, I dont find anything that supports you.

Do you also wear tin foil on your head to stop the government branwashing you through the TV?

BigFatBloke

apreading wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

If you were to read the whole article you will see recovery is covered. You need to read it all the way through. Easy to see how easy you are to brainwash.

Yeah - only in as much to say that he hasnt tested for it, many other studies have concluded it to be beneficial, others havent proved it but none have disproved it - and that there is no downsite to hedging your bets and having protein/carbs after exercise.

Interestingly enough, the same web page links to http://www.pponline.co.uk/download/post ... eals-41680

Exercising burns up amino acids, glucose, and glycogen stored in the muscles. Upon completion, your muscles are more receptive to accepting nutrients that would restore and repair levels found in the muscles. Scientific studies show that consuming a carbohydrate/protein supplement within 30 minutes of completing exercise increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage. Replacing your glycogen storage levels quickly allows your body to recuperate faster and recharge your fuel system for the next workout or event.

In this free download, available to registered members of PP Online, we provide a series of recovery meal recommendations.

You are right - I didnt bother reading it, because I wasnt interested enough so just skipped to the conclusion. Now that I have read it, I dont find anything that supports you.

Do you also wear tin foil on your head to stop the government branwashing you through the TV?

It is a good idea to eat a good balanced meal after training or a race. But you do not need some cheap whey based supplement. You would do far better getting any additional protein you might need from shellfish, fish, meat, eggs, nuts etc etc.

It is far better to get your carbs & protein via a wide variety of foods thus getting a wider range of nutrients. With a small amount of effort even someone on a low income can put together a highly nutritious after training or race meal.

A supplement might be cheap and convenient though, if you can stomach the muck.

apreading

So you are basically saying that it is scientifically impossible to manufacture something for a specific purpose that is better than exists in nature? I guess if you apply the same logic we should all stop wearing man made clothes and go live in the wilderness like bear grylls then?

Fair enough, if you cant see otherwise there is little point discussing with you. I wont post again - please go on with your belief.

ric/rstsport

it's easier just to put Trev and his various names (big fat bloke, bender rodriguez, etc) on your foe list and then you don't have to read their diatribe (or indeed anyone elses who starts to annoy you). It does ruin the threads a little as you can't always see what's written.

BigFatBloke

apreading wrote:

So you are basically saying that it is scientifically impossible to manufacture something for a specific purpose that is better than exists in nature? I guess if you apply the same logic we should all stop wearing man made clothes and go live in the wilderness like bear grylls then?

Fair enough, if you cant see otherwise there is little point discussing with you. I wont post again - please go on with your belief.

Go read a real book on nutrition instead of adverts.

BigFatBloke

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

it's easier just to put Trev and his various names (big fat bloke, bender rodriguez, etc) on your foe list and then you don't have to read their diatribe (or indeed anyone elses who starts to annoy you). It does ruin the threads a little as you can't always see what's written.

Ric,

I'm not BenderRodrigues, no idea who the fuck he is.

Trev.

lewiskinch

Cracking read, Bigfatbloke.

I don't think anyone is suggesting replacing a balanced diet with a protein shake. What people are suggesting is using protein shakes at times when a meal won't go down to well or is not available eg after a hard training session.

I find it strange that you can't comprehend that someone has made a powder that has a high protein content that you can mix with milk. What do you think is in the powder, dust? Thousands of people see real world muscle growth by using whey protein powder. You might be able to afford some to try yourself if you hadn't spent all your money on tin foil.

Maybe you could give us some evidence of your own progress?

charlie_potatoes

lewiskinch wrote:

You might be able to afford some to try yourself if you hadn't spent all your money on tin foil.