Helmets vs Bees

arran77

CiB wrote:

I'd leave it, but I can't.. It's like a moth to a light, this ridiculous argument that cycling is so dangerous only a madman would do it without PPE.

chris_bass

Mikey23 wrote:

That's a good one for a fridge magnet!

you were talking about this I presume..

Captain Tiara wrote:

Presumption is the mother of all f***ups........

Mikey23

I was indeed, I think it's brilliant!

al_kidder

GiantMike wrote:

Al Kidder wrote:

While smoking, being fat, and getting pregnant after the age of 35 remain legal (quite a high risk of producing a defective baby), all of which produce public health costs vastly greater than the rare instance of cycling head injuries, I resent being ordered to wear one.

Who has ordered you to wear one? I think you may have misunderstood the law or have a persecution complex. You are free to cycle without a helmet if you wish.

Not in Australia, since 1991. It's an insane law in a warm climate.

bompington

CiB wrote:

bompington wrote:

Not only that, but I personally have met loads of people who survived World War II uninjured, never mind alive. In fact, come to think of it, I haven't met a single person who died as a result of being in World War II. Wars are clearly far less dangerous than they are cracked up to be.

Massive whole in logic alert. Clue - there is a suggestion that some people may have died in WWII. Figures vary, but suggestions are that a few million did. I don't see a correlation with cycling deaths, but that may be because the point of war is to kill people, the point of cycling isn't. In some ways we could argue that both activities largely and successfully achieve their aim. Well done all.

Oh for goodness' sake and then some. I was not arguing either side in the helmet debate. I was merely pointing out that the quality of "logic" and "evidence" that is being offered (read my post and the post I was quoting) is somewhat lacking.
For the hard of thinking, what I was pointing out is that saying "there are lots of old cyclists about so not wearing a helmet can't have been that dangerous" is, on its own, about as logical as saying that "there are lots of old soldiers around so WW2 can't have been that dangerous". Yes, I am, errr, actually aware that war is more dangerous than the sunday club run. It's just that the helmet debate brings out the worst possible pseudo-scientific guff, or in this case not-remotely-scientific-at-all guff, on all sides, which depresses me a bit.

I shall continue to wear my helmet, fully aware that it may not be increasing my chances that much, but suspecting that it probably does. Good enough for me.

gozzy

I think there's a problem with helmet threads that people get really defensive that anyone who makes a comment, that's on neither side of the argument, but is just a passing remark, that those people must actually be campaigners for the "denial of all that is right and true about cycling and thou shalt not make me wear a helmet, otherwise I shall shoot myself in the foot and decree that I shall never ride a bike again, ever!".
When actually, they're not, they were just passing comment on something someone said.

I only wear a helmet cos it makes me look pro.
I couldn't give a rats derriere if anyone else chooses to wear one or not, it's their choice.

CiB

bompington wrote:

defensive stuff

Don't post weak analogies with fine nuances and expect someone having a busy day at the office to spot them then.

FWIW here's my take on it. I get a bit racked off with the suggestion that invariably appears in every thread that mentions helmets, that anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is an idiot putting him or herself at severe risk of being spoon-fed Weetabix for the rest of his or her days. This is pretty much guaranteed to be followed by the words 'obviously I wouldn't like to see it made compulsory', but there's always an implied but following, that goes 'but as I always wear one for every ride anyway it wouldn't really bother me if it was'. You all know all the arguments, but once a few people have all smugly agreed with each other how it's only the halfwits and morons who don't wear one it's hard not to step in and say hold on a minute fellahs. Its not really that risky, and we’re not all riding in busy urban environments, or racing in bunch sprints...

And there's another aspect to it. You can be pretty certain that someone somewhere is plotting to introduce a helmet law, and I strongly suspect that one of the arguments will be along the lines of ‘you only have to read the cycling forums to see that there’s unanimous support for helmet wearing blah blah blah so making it mandatory would have no effect on the cycling community’. I don’t want that to happen or to be part of the introduction of a helmet law by apathy. It’s important [to me, hopefully to you too] that we retain the option of not wearing a helmet for every single ride so no matter how much you get cheesed off at seeing the same old arguments against helmets being put forward I’m going to keep doing it, and hope that others join in and agree that cycling isn’t dangerous, and that not wearing a helmet isn’t the mark of a madman.

bianchimoon

Hypothetically - if someone were to say to me i'm gonna drop a lump of concrete on your from say 12 inches would you like a helmet on or not before i do it, i know what i would choose.
There's still a choice, each to their own, personally would like to see people wearing helmets, but I don't lose sleep if they don't and respect their decision not to

Mikey23

@bompington...I got your point anyway!

gozzy

Al Kidder wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

Al Kidder wrote:

While smoking, being fat, and getting pregnant after the age of 35 remain legal (quite a high risk of producing a defective baby), all of which produce public health costs vastly greater than the rare instance of cycling head injuries, I resent being ordered to wear one.

Who has ordered you to wear one? I think you may have misunderstood the law or have a persecution complex. You are free to cycle without a helmet if you wish.

Not in Australia, since 1991. It's an insane law in a warm climate.

I suspect someone should have made their location explicit a little earlier, this being a predominantly UK board, rather than Australian.

GiantMike

Al Kidder wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

Al Kidder wrote:

While smoking, being fat, and getting pregnant after the age of 35 remain legal (quite a high risk of producing a defective baby), all of which produce public health costs vastly greater than the rare instance of cycling head injuries, I resent being ordered to wear one.

Who has ordered you to wear one? I think you may have misunderstood the law or have a persecution complex. You are free to cycle without a helmet if you wish.

Not in Australia, since 1991. It's an insane law in a warm climate.

Ah, didn't realise you're Australian. You have my deepest sympathy.

bompington

CiB wrote:

bompington wrote:

defensive stuff

I didn't have enough spare brainpower to understand what you were trying to say.

back atcha.

And no, it wasn't a weak analogy. So there are heaps of old cyclists around who survived without helmets? What about how many didn't? This observation simply doesn't tell us: the rate could be ten times higher than it is now, or ten times lower. I could use an analogy with the number of old drivers who have survived not wearing seat belts, if you feel it's stronger, but I was using reductio ad absurdum because it's a useful technique when faced with an "argument" that is superficially attractive but underneath makes no logical sense - the war analogy is a big stretch but the logic is identical.

Like I said, I am well aware of the more complex depths of this debate: dammit, I've even spent time with the obsessives on cyclehelmets.org, where, as much as the style and tone shout "obsessive nutters", some of the stats are hard to argue with. I happened to be picking on one of the sillier arguments against helmets, but it's all too easy to hit the other side if you want: all the "helmets saved my life" anecdotes for example, where there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure what would have happened without one.

Sorry if that made you think I was part of the conspiracy to foist helmet compulsion on us.

slowbike

bianchimoon wrote:

Hypothetically - if someone were to say to me i'm gonna drop a lump of concrete on your from say 12 inches would you like a helmet on or not before i do it, i know what i would choose.

But that's not equivalent of most ppl's rides.
You've assumed it's a given - a certain one off event - it's going to happen. How often do you come off your bike and hit your head against concrete? What do you think is the probability of doing so?

So you need to change your hypothetical to more like:

If someone were to say to me I might drop a lump of concrete on your head from say 12 inches, but I'm not going to say where or when but would you like to wear a helmet all the time just in case?

bompington

Slowbike wrote:

How often do you come off your bike and hit your head against concrete? What do you think is the probability of doing so?

Dunno, it's only happened to me twice in the last few years :-(

CiB

Slowbike wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Hypothetically - if someone were to say to me i'm gonna drop a lump of concrete on your from say 12 inches would you like a helmet on or not before i do it, i know what i would choose.

But that's not equivalent of most ppl's rides.
You've assumed it's a given - a certain one off event - it's going to happen. How often do you come off your bike and hit your head against concrete? What do you think is the probability of doing so?

So you need to change your hypothetical to more like:

If someone were to say to me I might drop a lump of concrete on your head from say 12 inches, but I'm not going to say where or when but would you like to wear a helmet all the time just in case?

bianchimoon's argument is the daftest of them all. Yes - if you threaten me with GBH but offer me a bit of protection I'll probably say yes. I'd take slowbike's argument a bit further though.

If you - mr Bianchimoon - say to me that sometime in your lifetime I might but probably won't lob some concrete in your direction and it may or may not hit you in a particular way on your head; would you like to wear a helmet every single time you go anywhere, including all the times when you're pretty sure I'm not around with my block of concrete, and those times when the chance of me hitting you with it in such a way are such that you'll need to develop a waste for Weetabix is a bit higher? You know what, I might say no. Maybe though if I was taking part in an event that involved a lot of people all with a higher propensity to lob lumps of concrete at me, I'd probably take the opportunity to put one on in that situation.

When I was 8 someone did lob a lump of concrete at me actually. It didn't kill me, or cause any long term damage, but I didn't start wearing a crash helmet every time I was near that lad's house. I [correctly it turned out] assumed that it was an unusual event that probably wouldn't happen to me again. I don't mind a bit of risk thanks.

Weak enough analogy?

ScreaminWargasm

arran77 wrote:

Just get yourself one of these and confuse the little buggers into thinking that you're one of them

Thats brilliant!!

My Helmet has 2 sets of changeable pads. One of which has a built in insect net which works a treat during summer.
Each to their own with regards to wearing a lid however, I have had 2 accidents on the bike and on both occasions, the helmets have taken a HUGE amount of damage.
I wouldn't ride without one

Mikey23

My recent and only experience of an off at 20mph. Right hand side hit Tarmac and broke clavicle, ribs and punctured lung. Head came down on grass verge next to the Tarmac and suffered minor denting and grass stains. I think my head did a kind of whiplash. Emergency services did neck brace thing but fortunately no spinal damage. Could have been anything there including a concrete wall. I didn't have time to choose my landing place. I always wear a helmet. I'm not overly concerned if you don't...

bompington

CiB wrote:

Weak enough analogy?

Don't know: TLDR.




;-)

declan1

I was riding along on the flat at about 20mph the other day when I could see a wasp flying around in front of me, weaving all over the place. I carried on, assuming I would miss it (I had a pretty good chance), however it flew straight into my mouth and proceeded to buzz around inside until I tried to spit it out, at which point the little bugger stung me on the lip. Literally 200 yards later a bee ended up inside one of my helmet vents and I had to shake my head around to let him out...

Mikey23

Bloody wasp... Bet it wasn't wearing a helmet

ToeKnee

declan1 wrote:

I was riding along on the flat at about 20mph the other day when I could see a wasp flying around in front of me, weaving all over the place. I carried on, assuming I would miss it (I had a pretty good chance), however it flew straight into my mouth and proceeded to buzz around inside until I tried to spit it out, at which point the little bugger stung me on the lip. Literally 200 yards later a bee ended up inside one of my helmet vents and I had to shake my head around to let him out...

Small question: what was the gender of the wasp?

navrig

I once had a bee get into my motorbike helmet when I left the visor up. It got stuck between my sunglasses and my face, the little bugga stung me on the eyelid.

Thankfully I was only doing 40mph and I found a layby quickly to pull into.

My face swoll up and I ended up get an antihistamine injection at Belford Hospital in Fort William.

I am completely bald so I ended up looking like Uncle Fester from The Adamas Family!!

declan1

ToeKnee wrote:

declan1 wrote:

I was riding along on the flat at about 20mph the other day when I could see a wasp flying around in front of me, weaving all over the place. I carried on, assuming I would miss it (I had a pretty good chance), however it flew straight into my mouth and proceeded to buzz around inside until I tried to spit it out, at which point the little bugger stung me on the lip. Literally 200 yards later a bee ended up inside one of my helmet vents and I had to shake my head around to let him out...

Small question: what was the gender of the wasp?

I'm not THAT observant :P

bianchimoon

Slowbike wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Hypothetically - if someone were to say to me i'm gonna drop a lump of concrete on your from say 12 inches would you like a helmet on or not before i do it, i know what i would choose.

But that's not equivalent of most ppl's rides.

That's why I said hypothetically

Slowbike wrote:

You've assumed it's a given - a certain one off event - it's going to happen. How often do you come off your bike and hit your head against concrete? What do you think is the probability of doing so?

very, very, slim possibility (not probability), but possibility nevertheless, that's why i choose to wear, because should the unexpected happen i'd rather have some protection than none. Like I said i respect your reasons for not wanting to, think about respecting others for wanting to

Slowbike wrote:

So you need to change your hypothetical to more like:

If someone were to say to me I might drop a lump of concrete on your head from say 12 inches, but I'm not going to say where or when but would you like to wear a helmet all the time just in case?

definately whilst they were around i would, this guy with the concrete sounds like a psycho

slowbike

bianchimoon wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Hypothetically - if someone were to say to me i'm gonna drop a lump of concrete on your from say 12 inches would you like a helmet on or not before i do it, i know what i would choose.

But that's not equivalent of most ppl's rides.

That's why I said hypothetically

Slowbike wrote:

You've assumed it's a given - a certain one off event - it's going to happen. How often do you come off your bike and hit your head against concrete? What do you think is the probability of doing so?

very, very, slim possibility (not probability), but possibility nevertheless, that's why i choose to wear, because should the unexpected happen i'd rather have some protection than none. Like I said i respect your reasons for not wanting to, think about respecting others for wanting to

That's not what you said - you said that you WOULD be hit on the head with a lump of concrete (paraphrase) ...
I agree that there is a possibility of hitting your head during an accident whilst cycling - I wear a helmet most of the time. I think some of those that don't are nuts - but that's only if they're riding main roads at a good pace - and I don't voice my concerns with them - it's their choice.
I don't bother if I'm going out for a slow ride in civies - like from the office into town or down to the shops ..

bianchimoon wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

So you need to change your hypothetical to more like:

If someone were to say to me I might drop a lump of concrete on your head from say 12 inches, but I'm not going to say where or when but would you like to wear a helmet all the time just in case?

definitely whilst they were around i would, this guy with the concrete sounds like a psycho

He does ... unfortunately he seems to drive around 5% of vehicles on the road ... and often more than one at a time ... gawd knows how he does it ... but yer - right psycho!

freddiegrubb

Ena sharples hair net, cheap & does the job.

navrig

freddiegrubb wrote:

Ena sharples hair net, cheap & does the job.

No it doesn't. That assumes that the hair net has some supporting hairunderneath, the combination of which will keep the said bee/wasp/(lump of concrete) separate from your skull. If you are bald the hair net will sit comfortable on your scalp giving the bee or wasp adequate access to an area of skin. Ouch

For completeness, the lump of concrete doen't care if it has an area of skin to to acces, it will still feckin' hurt.

binkybike

I wear a helmet for insurance purposes, and for that reason only.

My only other observation is that riding a hobby horse and having a sense of humour seem to be completely incompatible.

awavey

declan1 wrote:

ToeKnee wrote:

declan1 wrote:

I was riding along on the flat at about 20mph the other day when I could see a wasp flying around in front of me, weaving all over the place. I carried on, assuming I would miss it (I had a pretty good chance), however it flew straight into my mouth and proceeded to buzz around inside until I tried to spit it out, at which point the little bugger stung me on the lip. Literally 200 yards later a bee ended up inside one of my helmet vents and I had to shake my head around to let him out...

Small question: what was the gender of the wasp?

I'm not THAT observant :P

you dont have to be, if it hadnt sting you it would have been male,as it did sting you, it was female, as only the female wasps or bees can sting

ps - but thats why you should always ride with your mouth closed

declan1

awavey wrote:

declan1 wrote:

ToeKnee wrote:

declan1 wrote:

I was riding along on the flat at about 20mph the other day when I could see a wasp flying around in front of me, weaving all over the place. I carried on, assuming I would miss it (I had a pretty good chance), however it flew straight into my mouth and proceeded to buzz around inside until I tried to spit it out, at which point the little bugger stung me on the lip. Literally 200 yards later a bee ended up inside one of my helmet vents and I had to shake my head around to let him out...

Small question: what was the gender of the wasp?

I'm not THAT observant :P

you dont have to be, if it hadnt sting you it would have been male,as it did sting you, it was female, as only the female wasps or bees can sting

ps - but thats why you should always ride with your mouth closed

Well, you learn something new every day (even if it's something you really should have known already)!