La Gazzetta on Horner

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Comments

  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    RichN95 wrote:
    Two little things to consider, a propos very little:

    - For the third year in a row the Vuelta has been won by someone who did neither the Tour nor the Giro
    - This is the first time Horner has been a team leader in a GT

    His palmares is decent but it is a million miles away from destroying the best stage racer since Contador, Valverde and Rodriguez.

    If he was always so naturally talented then even if he wasnt riding as leader he would have got reasonable placings in GTs. Please correct me if I am wrong but his best placing before now is 10th in the TdF (where he was the leader when Armstrong and Levi were out of the picture). I don't even think he has won a stage.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,599
    please don't anyone bite.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    gsk82 wrote:
    please don't anyone bite.

    What's to bite on?
    Frenchie's comment looks pretty fair to me.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    gsk82 wrote:
    please don't anyone bite.

    What's to bite on?
    Frenchie's comment looks pretty fair to me.
    I think it was the 'best stage racer since Contador' bit he was referring to, which could be nibbled at in two different ways. But that's FF's opinion, he's welcome to it.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    While we say that Cadel Evans has passed his best at 36, we have to accept that Chris Horner is living the dream at 42... if you believe in fairy tales... I don't... he smiles in the same way as Riis, have you noticed?
    left the forum March 2023
  • jordan_217
    jordan_217 Posts: 2,580
    Whats gets my goat is the brash little gobshite proclaiming his performance was legendary, and that we should all feel somewhat honored to have witnessed it. Tit.
    “Training is like fighting with a gorilla. You don’t stop when you’re tired. You stop when the gorilla is tired.”
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Where did he say that?
  • frisbee
    frisbee Posts: 691
    This thread is the cycling equivalent of Logan's Run. Actually it goes further, there is no point in spending 3 weeks cycling around Spain/France/Italy, lets weigh all the cyclists, take a muscle biopsy, measure their aerodynamics in a wind tunnel and work out who would win using an equation.

    Is he doping? I don't know, I don't care. If there is a chance that a 41 year old is winning a grand tour clean then I think it's great. In women's cycling, which is less drug fuelled, there have been athletes competing at the top level into their 50s.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    I think I'm done watching Grand Tours. I just take no pleasure from viewing this charade.

    One day races I can at least kid myself. Sort of.

    Admittedly reading Walsh and Voet during the race didn't help my attitude.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    frisbee wrote:
    This thread is the cycling equivalent of Logan's Run. Actually it goes further, there is no point in spending 3 weeks cycling around Spain/France/Italy, lets weigh all the cyclists, take a muscle biopsy, measure their aerodynamics in a wind tunnel and work out who would win using an equation.

    Is he doping? I don't know, I don't care. If there is a chance that a 41 year old is winning a grand tour clean then I think it's great. In women's cycling, which is less drug fuelled, there have been athletes competing at the top level into their 50s.

    That would be the EPO taking Jeannie Longo?
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • frisbee
    frisbee Posts: 691
    Timoid. wrote:
    frisbee wrote:
    This thread is the cycling equivalent of Logan's Run. Actually it goes further, there is no point in spending 3 weeks cycling around Spain/France/Italy, lets weigh all the cyclists, take a muscle biopsy, measure their aerodynamics in a wind tunnel and work out who would win using an equation.

    Is he doping? I don't know, I don't care. If there is a chance that a 41 year old is winning a grand tour clean then I think it's great. In women's cycling, which is less drug fuelled, there have been athletes competing at the top level into their 50s.

    That would be the EPO taking Jeannie Longo?

    Which is why I used "less", rather than "isn't"....
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Mikey23 wrote:
    Where did he say that?

    It was on the itv coverage after the stage - question was is it good for cycling for a 41yo to win - he didn't proclaim his cleanliness - just that it would be awesome viewing.

    http://www.rtve.es/m/alacarta/videos/vu ... ?media=tve from about 2 mins in.

    I've watched cycling for decades now and this win doesn't ring true to me.
    Time will tell.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    You could watch just for the nice scenery then ...
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    cougie wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    Where did he say that?

    It was on the itv coverage after the stage - question was is it good for cycling for a 41yo to win - he didn't proclaim his cleanliness - just that it would be awesome viewing.

    http://www.rtve.es/m/alacarta/videos/vu ... ?media=tve from about 2 mins in.

    I've watched cycling for decades now and this win doesn't ring true to me.
    Time will tell.

    Was a great soundbite ... No platitudes or false modesty ... He won, is ecstatic he won and is f'ing pleased about it given the length of his career and some of the stuff he's had to race through ...

    Beats the sheer relief we see from some riders (Cav/Froome) ... It's not a crime not to win, but when you do enjoy it ...

    Horner's interview could only have been better if he held up a 'f-you bikeradar' sign at the end ...
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Horner's interview could only have been better if he held up a 'f-you bikeradar' sign at the end ...

    What's Bikeradar got to do with anything? We aren't the only ones who have seen it all too frequently before to find it easy to believe in miracles.

    Either a 42 year old fairly beat some (ie all of the Vuelta entrants) of the best, and much younger riders pro cycling has to offer without the help of Contadors cook or everyone in the Vuelta wasn't even close to being second rate (how else would a 42 year old manage the win?). Or there were drugs involved. I don't know what the truth is but on the basis of past history, the latter is by far the most probable explanation and it is a very reasonable opinion for people to have even if you disagree with it.

    On the basis of his performance, how many stages of this years Vuelta could he have won if he hadn't been defending his GC position?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Horner's interview could only have been better if he held up a 'f-you bikeradar' sign at the end ...

    Do you really think anybody outside of this forum cares what's written here? I think you have an inflated view of the relevance of this forum and your self chosen role as Troll deluxe.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    As I'm reading Nate Silvers book, I keep applying his rules to this, and keep getting back to there just isn't enough data to make a reasonable decision.

    We don't have any real data points for 42 year olds at the top end of procycling. We especially don't have any data points for someone who started late, had a stop start career either. If doping can achieve this, why did we not see more older people during the 90's and 00's at the top end later in their career?

    If he's doping and getting away with it, why aren't the others?

    I would bet if there was a 100% certain way to detect doping, and it showed Horner wasn't doing it, people would still not be happy.

    I don't know if he's on anything - might be, might not be. But if you'd be happier with Nibali or Valverde winning that race, I certainly hope it isn't from cleanliness perspective.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Nice post Iain...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Ferrari comments

    http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=140

    Interesting comment on the out of the saddle thing
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    iainf72 wrote:
    Ferrari comments

    http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=140

    Interesting comment on the out of the saddle thing

    Well, his reviewer's calculation seem to be in conflict with Horner's own SRM data release:
    It is especially the performance of Pena Cabarga (545m of elevation at 9%) that triggered the Reviewers: VAM = 1958 m/h - 6.75 w/kg - 378w (assuming Horner's weight to be 56kg).

    Conversely, we have:
    Chris Horner, racing at approximately 65kg.
    Chris averaged 425 watts in the final 6 kilometers uphill with a 744 watt maximum output.(6.54w/kg)

    I suppose that makes the big question that we don't have an accurate answer to is his weight.
    Goodness knows where the 56kgs figure came from.
    If Ferrari's reviewer is right, (which I seriously doubt) young Chris, by his own admission, clocked at 7.6w/kg. :lol:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Type switching the 5 for a 6.

    I'd put his weight at 63/64.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    iainf72 wrote:
    Ferrari comments

    http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=140

    Interesting comment on the out of the saddle thing

    Thank goodness Nibali is not a factory boy and doesnt do the most efficient things as the stage would have far far worse viewing for the fans. After all, what we as fans care about is to sit down to watch and be entertained.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Horner from 2010 Tourmalet:
    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07 ... nyone.html

    Stage 18 of the Vuelta:
    http://www.srm.de/news/road-cycling/vue ... -stage-18/
    Official data. Last 6ks: 425 watts. 6.5-6.6 w/kg.
    Little picture from that climb too :roll:
    vuelta18_pic3.jpg
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    frenchfighter wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Ferrari comments

    http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=140

    Interesting comment on the out of the saddle thing

    Thank goodness Nibali is not a factory boy and doesnt do the most efficient things as the stage would have far far worse viewing for the fans. After all, what we as fans care about is to sit down to watch and be entertained.
    And that was a really entertaining stage, Horner may have won but Nibbles definitely wins the effort award! Very good performance from Roche too. Only real bummer is that it ends with a sprint stage and there are hardly any sprinters. If that had finished on that stage it would have been perfect.
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  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Type switching the 5 for a 6.

    I'd put his weight at 63/64.

    Except that calculation is correct for 56kms.
    Horner's definitely not 65 kgs, either.
    Rode the 2010 Tour at the mid point of your estimates.
    Which brings us back to the original "guesstimates"
    on twitter/Vayer etc.
    6.7w/kg
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Type switching the 5 for a 6.

    I'd put his weight at 63/64.

    Except that calculation is correct for 56kms.
    Horner's definitely not 65 kgs, either.
    Rode the 2010 Tour at the mid point of your estimates.
    Which brings us back to the original "guesstimates"
    on twitter/Vayer etc.
    6.7w/kg

    What weight would you say? SRM says approx 65.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Opps wrong thread...
    Road
    MTB
    NEW Cross
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Half the people writing about Horner can't even get his age right, let alone his weight.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    RichN95 wrote:
    Half the people writing about Horner can't even get his age right, let alone his weight.

    FF: 63.5kg

    This thread explains it all perfectly. :wink:
    http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/show ... ost2017096
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    RichN95 wrote:
    Half the people writing about Horner can't even get his age right, let alone his weight.

    41 years and 11 months is closer to 42 than 41.
    Contador is the Greatest

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