When do you begin winter training?

davoj

Hi,

I have read a few different posts and views about this subject but just wondering when do most folks begin the winter season?

I will be racing 3rd Cat next year and this will be my first proper winter and need to improve my speed in the group and especially on hills so i was figuring on the turbo trainer twice mid week and a club spin on the Sunday, so would October be to early to start this or should i consider a 2-3 week break and than start the season mid to late October?

Thanks

sloppyschleckonds

December

amaferanga

If your winter training is only 2 turbo sessions and a club (aka recovery) ride at the weekend then you probably don't need to take a break before starting it.

LegendLust

I race up to the end of September, cafe rides and pootles in October, then the hard work begins again in November.

ric/rstsport

I've started mine! Now (the time between now and december) is an excellent time to make inroads on some specific issues you may be having. So, for e.g., with myself i'm working on weight loss, and increasing FTP.

If you're having issues of staying with a group on the hills and/or lacking speed you probably need to be doing more than 3 sessions a week.

For most people i coach (i.e., non-world class) then a week or two either easy riding or off should be sufficient.

Ric

poynedexter

started this week. i'll keep the mon-fri stuff at 1 hr turbo sessions along with some legs exercises, and mix up the weekend runs at different levels/ durations. focus on a little weight loss too.

davoj

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

I've started mine! Now (the time between now and december) is an excellent time to make inroads on some specific issues you may be having. So, for e.g., with myself i'm working on weight loss, and increasing FTP.

If you're having issues of staying with a group on the hills and/or lacking speed you probably need to be doing more than 3 sessions a week.

For most people i coach (i.e., non-world class) then a week or two either easy riding or off should be sufficient.

Ric

Thanks for the reply.

How many sessions would you recommend a week and whats the minimum time a person needs on a turbo if doing the right sessions?

ric/rstsport

I'm just about to take the rest of the day off, to spend time with my gf as it's her birthday :-).

however, briefly, it's not easy (impossible?) to answer this correctly/well on a forum. for e.g. when people sign up for coaching with us we send them out a 15 page questionnaire and that only gets to part of the question. it depends on many things (more is generally better tho!)

ric

SBezza

I was going to finish my season at the end of September, (and have the whole of October just riding around having fun) but have been talked into a 2up at the end of October, so now I will have a few weeks just riding around and then start properly in November.

For the OP, I will be doing a minimum of 5 days training a week, and with the majority of the time 6 days a week and a lot of my time will be on the turbo during the winter, most of the sessions on the turbo will be 1-1.5 hours I would suspect, though what is done in that time is variable, and like Ric says without knowledge of you and your goals it is impossible to give an ideal training plan. Certainly more than 3 sessions a week though to see decent progress.

wardieboy

SBezza - I'd be interested to know what kind of intensity you would be targeting on the turbo when training 5 sessions per week.

Like the OP - I currently train twice a week on the turbo (threshold intervals) and do a hard long ride at the weekends (approx 4 hours).

colinsmith123

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans

For turbo training advice this is a good place to start. Check out the rest of the trainerroad.com website and the thread in this forum.

pato

The season is only just ending and the next doesn't start till next march that's if your talking crits, bc or Tli.
It's very very hard maintain race fitness all year round. Personally I de-train for a month then just enjoy my riding till about jan next year when I steadily start to wind up the pace and training i.e chaingang, hard team training then a training holiday in Spain in march for a week and time it so when I get back I will do my first crit in march.

dennisn

When the outside temperature goes below my age.

napoleond

dennisn wrote:

When the outside temperature goes below my age.

Does it ever get above it Dennis?

dennisn

NapoleonD wrote:

dennisn wrote:

When the outside temperature goes below my age.

Does it ever get above it Dennis?

hahaha. Funny guy. Just wait, your time will come. Got to admit that way back in my much younger days I never thought I'd be 65.

SBezza

wardieboy wrote:

SBezza - I'd be interested to know what kind of intensity you would be targeting on the turbo when training 5 sessions per week.

Like the OP - I currently train twice a week on the turbo (threshold intervals) and do a hard long ride at the weekends (approx 4 hours).

I will target most intensities up to around threshold, in the winter I don't do much real heavy intensity, in fact I don't do much all year LOL. It depends on what my coach and I decide we need to concentrate on, and historically what has given the best returns in previous years.

BenderRodriguez

A few thoughts:

I would say that anyone thinking of starting full-on training now for next season runs the risk of becoming just another 'winter warrior'. What all too often happens is that someone thinks that they can transform themselves into a 'hitter' if only they start clocking up the mileage and thrashing up every hill in sight the week after the last race. In reality what usually happens is that they end up giving their mates a kicking on the winter club runs, peak around February and are physically and psychologically wasted by May. They then under-perform during the summer or pack it all in by June. Then, when there are still plenty of events that they could be riding, they repeat the mistake by starting to get the miles in for next year's imagined transformation even earlier!

Part of the problem with many 'winter warriors' is that they are often unrealistic about how much improvement they can make in one season. Most people who have been training for a couple of years would do very well to add 10% to their sustainable power output over the next 12 months, so the most effective programme is likely to be one that is designed to give such a relatively modest improvement, rather then some grandiose scheme that the rider thinks will transform them from a struggling third cat into a first cat in one jump.

Of course, you need to put the graft in, but 'sufficient' is always better than 'more'. Despite the fetish that is made of 'work' (largely because this helps to keep peoples 'noses to the grindstone' and maintain the myth of meritocracy that is so dominant in the modern age, but that's another story…) what primarily determines a rider's level of performance is their innate ability, including the degree to which training leads to adaptation. For most people, hours and hours of training day right through the winter will not see them suddenly become an elite level rider, it will just leave them mentally and physically exhausted. It is also very easy to become demoralised if you have spent all winter thrashing yourself, only to find the races as hard as ever. If you know that you still have more to come it is much easier to keep at it until the form finally comes.

BenderRodriguez

Following on from the above, this is how I have approached my own winter training. The aim is to allow me to get into my best possible condition for cycling by next April - May, and to be able to sustain this until September. Right now this means there is still about 7 months to go! Some might be able to bash away on the turbo for the next 6 months and not go stale / plateau / go mad, but I know that I couldn't! What seems to work for me is to put together a 3-phase cycle of general fitness training and maintenance work (very likely followed by an interim period of 'Reverse periodisation' higher-intensity training) followed by a base-building phase, followed by competition-orientated training.

As I now live in the Alps the winters seriously curtail what I can do on a bike and the seasons change with a vengeance, so when the weather starts getting bad I start doing some running, and then once the snow comes I get into cross country skiing and ski touring. I still try to keep my 'cycling legs' by getting in a good long ride when the weather allows for it, but often this is not possible for weeks on end. I also ride on an indoor velodrome a couple of times a week from October to get some higher quality (mainly threshold) work in, although at this point this is geared towards simply maintaining rather than building my 'top end'. This can add up to quite a lot of work over a week but I find that the variety means it is much more sustainable than if the same number of hours were spent on the bike, especially in the winter weather.

I know that some feel that cross-training is a waste of time. But to my mind anything that gives you a good cardio workout and, most importantly, a psychological change, is worthwhile. Also, unless you are a pro-level rider to whom every percentage point is vital, why not try to promote a more all-round level of fitness and health? To my eyes it is a little sad to see somebody why dedicates their lives to doing 23 minute 10's or riding 3rd cat road races who can hardly run for a bus and has the upper body strength of a couch potato! Also, other sports can be enjoyable in their own right.

In the UK where the winters are less harsh I would do more on the bike, but focus on having some fun whilst still having a good work-out for the next couple of months - doing club runs, mountain biking and so forth - supplementing this during the week when the nights are dark with running, roller sessions and whatever else took my fancy. (One season some club mates and I did aerobics classes, one bonus was that as these were mixed sessions the scenery was much more 'interesting'.) This is also a good time to trim some weight off. Even if the weather and dark nights stops you getting much done on the bike, a couple of modest turbo sessions each week (for example riding 2 x 20 minutes at threshold) should be enough to maintain most gains in power made in the previous season.

I will probably follow the foregoing programme until late December or the beginning of January, with progression to the next stage of training proper depending on the weather. In the UK this would usually be the time to start 'base building', but as it is usually difficult to 'get the miles in' at this time of year where I live due to the weather I will probably find myself doing a cycle of 'Reverse periodisation' instead. That is, I will shift the focus towards doing plenty of threshold and above work on the track, with the aim of building my 'top end', whilst also continuing with cross country skiing or getting some miles in when the weather permits. Where I live this will probably take me to around the end of February at least.

As soon as the weather is good enough, I will then complement what I have done so far, and prepare for the next cycle, by completing perhaps 6-8 weeks of base work, cutting right back on the higher intensity stuff to compensate and to ensure that I am psychologically fresh and raring to give it some real stick later on.

(I find that training in such a cyclical manner helps to prevent staleness and boredom. The change in emphasis also seems to stop the body from becoming habituated to the stresses placed upon it, so halting progress. The variety also means that I must be doing the 'right' thing at least some of the time!)

This will take me up to the end of March or the beginning of April, when I intend to once again enter a cycle with the emphasis moving towards threshold and above training in the lead up to my first targeted event some time in late April / early May. This leaves 5 months of the season to go, where I will follow a monthly cycle leading up to each of my target events, which should be quite sustainable without risk of staleness or burnout.

A rather 'old school' approach perhaps, but a lot more enjoyable than sitting on a turbo for the next 6 months!

BigFatBloke

In my opinion, really high intensity training is of little benefit unless it is done 8 to 6 weeks before racing and even then should be done sparingly. I believe that mentally you can only do so much really high intensity work before the subconscious mind starts to apply the brakes. Even if you appear to be recovering and benefiting I think you only have so many really hard sessions in you each year. Use them all up and you end up unable to perform at your very best. You need to be prepared in mind and body to really perform when it matters. You need not only a fresh body but a fresh conscious and unconscious mind to turn in your best performances.

A mentally tired athlete won't perform at his best no matter how fit & fresh his body, or how motivated his conscious mind. If the old 'reptilian' brain is not up for it, you can shout at it all you like, but you are just flogging a dead horse.

Often the old reptilian brain is putting the brakes on because it is very well aware how tired the body is no matter what the numbers might tell you. It 'knows' what state your body is really in because it gets all the signals, hormones, endorphins etc etc, it knows a hell of a lot more than your power data alone can tell you. Override it at your peril.

dilemna

Winter training ........... I never stopped :roll:

BenderRodriguez

BigFatBloke wrote:

In my opinion, really high intensity training is of little benefit unless it is done 8 to 6 weeks before racing and even then should be done sparingly. I believe that mentally you can only do so much really high intensity work before the subconscious mind starts to apply the brakes. Even if you appear to be recovering and benefiting I think you only have so many really hard sessions in you each year. Use them all up and you end up unable to perform at your very best. You need to be prepared in mind and body to really perform when it matters. You need not only a fresh body but a fresh conscious and unconscious mind to turn in your best performances.

Agree 100%!

A large aerobic 'base' supplemented by some threshold-level efforts, with really high intensity stuff being the 'icing on the cake' in the pre-competition phase is the way most elite athletes competing in 'aerobic' sports train, whatever the discipline.

That said, I feel that going to the limit occasionally probably won't do any harm at any time of the year, as long as such efforts are done sparingly and without 'forcing' oneself psychologically.

BigFatBloke

BenderRodriguez wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

In my opinion, really high intensity training is of little benefit unless it is done 8 to 6 weeks before racing and even then should be done sparingly. I believe that mentally you can only do so much really high intensity work before the subconscious mind starts to apply the brakes. Even if you appear to be recovering and benefiting I think you only have so many really hard sessions in you each year. Use them all up and you end up unable to perform at your very best. You need to be prepared in mind and body to really perform when it matters. You need not only a fresh body but a fresh conscious and unconscious mind to turn in your best performances.

Agree 100%!

A large aerobic 'base' supplemented by some threshold-level efforts, with really high intensity stuff being the 'icing on the cake' in the pre-competition phase is the way most elite athletes competing in 'aerobic' sports train, whatever the discipline.

That said, I feel that going to the limit occasionally probably won't do any harm at any time of the year, as long as such efforts are done sparingly and without 'forcing' oneself psychologically.

Best we don't agree too often otherwise Ric will accuse us both of being Trev.

BenderRodriguez

BigFatBloke wrote:

Best we don't agree too often otherwise Ric will accuse us both of being Trev.

What is this 'Trev' thing? I did a search under that name but nothing came up. Even with a 'wildcard' search there are only a few hits relating to someone called 'Ninjatrev'. Is it an 'in joke' or something?

buckles

It is quite obvious you are both the same person

markwb79

There was a lot of text, but from what i got.....

You dont start winter training until the weather improves....

Yet you do a couple of track sessions, 2 x 20 at threshold, cross country skiing...what were the other ones? Oh, running...

Sounds like you havent really stopped either.

hatone

For me, winter training is about working on your aerobic endurance. Simple.

Base-building, riding in power zone 2 around 55% - 65% of FTP. I also use the base-building period to do resistance and weight training - leg squats, sit-ups and core work.

Only when the weather improves, especially temperature wise, I begin to look at working on my anaerobic threshold by riding in higher power zones, usually 12 weeks before competition or big ride.

The most crucial thing is peaking at the right time. It's very difficult to get right unless you have coach but for most of us it's experimentation and planning your riding programme 6 + months in advance.

BenderRodriguez

Buckles wrote:

It is quite obvious you are both the same person

It is also 'quite obvious' that the word is flat and the Sun goes around the Earth, and yet both of those 'obvious' things are as incorrect as the claim that I am this 'Trev' or, come to that, BigFatBloke.

Can some please point me to some threads by this 'Trev'?

BenderRodriguez

Markwb79 wrote:

There was a lot of text, but from what i got.....You dont start winter training until the weather improves....Yet you do a couple of track sessions, 2 x 20 at threshold, cross country skiing...what were the other ones? Oh, running...Sounds like you havent really stopped either.

I would say that the distinction lies not between 'training' and 'not training', as your post suggests you think, but between doing 'winter training' and 'in season training', with the variation in emphasis and activities that each type of training lends itself to. I would think that these days most people do some sort of training all year round.

Oh, by the way, I do not do 2 x 20's on the turbo at this time of year (or ever if I can avoid it...) I merely suggested this as an alternative session to those who aren't lucky enough to have access to a velodrome.

okgo

hatone wrote:

For me, winter training is about working on your aerobic endurance. Simple.

Base-building, riding in power zone 2 around 55% - 65% of FTP. I also use the base-building period to do resistance and weight training - leg squats, sit-ups and core work.

Only when the weather improves, especially temperature wise, I begin to look at working on my anaerobic threshold by riding in higher power zones, usually 12 weeks before competition or big ride.

The most crucial thing is peaking at the right time. It's very difficult to get right unless you have coach but for most of us it's experimentation and planning your riding programme 6 + months in advance.

Your peak would be even better if you stepped out of the dark ages

BenderRodriguez

okgo wrote:

hatone wrote:

For me, winter training is about working on your aerobic endurance...

Your peak would be even better if you stepped out of the dark ages

Speaking as someone with the experience of a full 2 seasons of 'proper riding', exactly what changes would you recommend to hatone's programme?

okgo

Well I don't have a definitive idea hence I'm looking into coaching, but I can't feasibly see what good riding around at half of my FTP is going to do me. I will defer to what I get told by said coach when we begin to work together, but my initial plan was to do lots of sweetspot training, possibly a few short sprints too, I will leave vo2 stuff till nearer the beginning of the season as that comes quite quickly, but I see no need to waste 3 months where I could be building FTP riding around at a nominal pace (I do enough of that commuting as it is, I don't need to turn my training rides into that aswell!).