Struggling up steep hills. Change chainring or cassette?

bill_gates

I've enquired about the costs of having a rear cassette and mech change and for the LBS to do this and also upgrade from 105 to Ultegra including labour is approx £150. I need to work out that cost versus just giving it some Rule V and getting on with it on the existing 11-25.

davylear

I have a SRAM 11-36 on the back of my road bike which means that it is now geared higher than my mountain bike. Needed to fit a medium derailleur tho. Cost roughly £120 in total if I remember right. Needed a bit of fiddling by the bike shop to make it work. Have a compact on the front so the bike is set up for hills although I still have the 11 to satisfy my speed adrenaline.

I was really struggling with hills being 105kg but although I rarely use all the gears now it is more the confidence that it has given me that has revolutionised my cycling as I now do not worry about seeing a steep hill in front of me or doing cycle routes to avoid them. Did the Exmoor Beauty on the bike this year and did not get off once whereas the year before I was permanently pushing it up.

Have done those hills mentioned above whearas I would never have contemplated doing them before.

dubcat

Here's more info from me. My Bianchi has a Shimano 105 setup - yes I know a small bunny somewhere got killed when they made it but it is the best bang for buck that I could afford at the time All the hills you have mentioned are on the sportive I stupidly signed up for. I have been up leith hill but my cadence was so slow it felt Iike I was moonwalking. Only sheer will got me up, I probably messed up my knees doing it, and I didn't do it as part of my first 100 mile ride. My preference is to spin up hills. I do this on my mtb and would love to do it on my roadie. I don't want to fit 3 rings up front though. I have no problem managing this many gears. I have them on my mtb. However I would like to stick with a compact setup on my road bike.

Based on what I've read it seems like a 27 or 28 cog on the back is an option and living with what I have is another option. Thanks for all of the great opinions

Oh and I should add, I want to be a killer hill eating machine. Maybe I would be by now but my focus is running at the moment so I'm not riding as much as I want to or need to. I also need to lose another stone probably but that will come as my marathon training picks up again.

dubcat

Guys - i can get 11-28 or 12-27. I totally don't know what to get! The 11-28 seems much more flexible. What is the advantage of the 12-27? If it helps, I tend to try and use the middle range of my current set up so i am not crossing my chain too much as I read this is extremely inefficient.

shamrock134

GingerMagician wrote:

drlodge wrote:

shamrock134 wrote:

Is there anything steeper/longer than White Down Lane in Surrey?

Yes - Barhatch Lane, 21% at the top and its a lot longer. Starts off around 10-12% but then ramps right up at the end.

The climb to Leith Hill via Cold Harbour is longer and quite tough, but not as steep. I think this is the highest ascent segment on Strava I have done.

For me, Chalkpit Lane is tougher than either Barhatch or White Downs - the c.20% stretch after the hairpin is more sustained and unrelenting than anything the other two can offer.

Barhatch is a bit overrated, IMO. It's steep at the top, but the rest of the climb has plenty of spot where you can recover.

Can you get up Chalkpit and Barhatch on 34-25? I don't want to have to change my cassette!

blinddrew

Dubcat wrote:

Guys - i can get 11-28 or 12-27. I totally don't know what to get! The 11-28 seems much more flexible. What is the advantage of the 12-27? If it helps, I tend to try and use the middle range of my current set up so i am not crossing my chain too much as I read this is extremely inefficient.

The advantage of the 12-27 is that there's less of a jump between the gears throughout the cassette. So it should be easier to find a comfortable gear at any speed / gradient in the middle of the range and steps between gears will be smoother (both mechanically and in terms of how much power you're putting down).
Do you really need an 11 tooth? I have a 50-12 as my highest gear* and only use the top gear on reasonable decents, I've probably spun out a couple of times but so rarely that it makes no odds. Whereas having a smaller spread of gears across the cassette gives a bit more flexibility for "normal" riding.

Does that make sense?


* I should never have bought the compact chainset but that's a separate thread.

graham_g

Apologies if this has already been posted, I just skimmed over and started ignoring all the usual gearing comments, I was just going to suggest a little bit of experimentation with climbing technique - getting comfortable climbing out of the saddle is important because there will always be stretches of hills (those that vary widely in gradient) that you're better off grimping a little on than doing seated the whole way. Sorry if it's a bit like teaching you to suck eggs, but my wife has only recently discovered the joys of riding slowly uphill out of the saddle (she thought out of the saddle = caning it!) to give knees/arse a break and keep momentum over short steep stretches.

rolf_f

paul2718 wrote:

Good information about Campagnolo cassettes.

I disagree about the gaps though, it's a significant compromise to run gears you seldom need.

FWIW I run 11-25 most of the time, 11-28 when it's hilly, and swap to a compact for special occasions. Part of it is attitude, if I can get up the Galibier on anything then Leith doesn't intimidate me, even on 39x25. If I decide I need 34x28 or lower to ascend Leith then how do I get into the right frame of mind for the Galibier? (names of climbs are indicative only...)

Paul

You're assuming that the extra gears are seldom needed. That's the point - if they are seldom needed, don't bring them. In the case of the indicative Galibier - it's not that steep. I know I could get up it on 12-27 (as I've done steeper on 11-29). I am also sure I could get up it on 12-25. It's just I'd be slower. I'd be benefiting from all those subtle single tooth changes which, tbh, don't really give you any benefit away from flat country, and losing out on the ease of spinning up. If I could get up any climb I needed to on 25, at a cadence of 80+, I wouldn't use a bigger cassette. So if I have 29 and a big enough hill I will use it - and I will be quicker - which is the point!

In the alps, in a way you just need a cassette with some small sprockets for downhill and big ones for uphill and nothing in between!

antfly

Bill Gates wrote:

I've enquired about the costs of having a rear cassette and mech change and for the LBS to do this and also upgrade from 105 to Ultegra including labour is approx £150. I need to work out that cost versus just giving it some Rule V and getting on with it on the existing 11-25.

You could do it yourself for about 60 quid less..

slowbike

Bill Gates wrote:

I've enquired about the costs of having a rear cassette and mech change and for the LBS to do this and also upgrade from 105 to Ultegra including labour is approx £150. I need to work out that cost versus just giving it some Rule V and getting on with it on the existing 11-25.

Why do you need to change the mech as well? My 105 mech is short and copes with a 28-11 cassette...

and the upgrade to Ultegra?

If you need an easier cassette just get an easier cassette and change it over. 5700 10 speed cassette < £35 ...

slowbike

blinddrew wrote:

Dubcat wrote:

Guys - i can get 11-28 or 12-27. I totally don't know what to get! The 11-28 seems much more flexible. What is the advantage of the 12-27? If it helps, I tend to try and use the middle range of my current set up so i am not crossing my chain too much as I read this is extremely inefficient.

The advantage of the 12-27 is that there's less of a jump between the gears throughout the cassette. So it should be easier to find a comfortable gear at any speed / gradient in the middle of the range and steps between gears will be smoother (both mechanically and in terms of how much power you're putting down).
Do you really need an 11 tooth? I have a 50-12 as my highest gear* and only use the top gear on reasonable decents, I've probably spun out a couple of times but so rarely that it makes no odds. Whereas having a smaller spread of gears across the cassette gives a bit more flexibility for "normal" riding.

Does that make sense?


* I should never have bought the compact chainset but that's a separate thread.

If you've been used to a 25 bottom gear then 28 is going to be like running a dinner plate on the back .... I have that dinner plate on the back and I'm aiming to swap it out for something smaller. That said, the 34/28 combo is a nice "get out" gear when you're on your last legs or you've got cramp like I did earlier this year....

Personally, from the choice and the area you're going to be riding I'd choose the 27/12 - closer ratios for the flatter sections and whilst 50/12 isn't a very high gear, by the time you're spinning out you're going fast enough and could probably do with some recovery! 34/27 is still 33" as opposed to 32" for 34/28. Your current 34/25 is 35.8"

Mad_Malx

Slowbike wrote:

blinddrew wrote:

Dubcat wrote:

Guys - i can get 11-28 or 12-27. I totally don't know what to get! The 11-28 seems much more flexible. What is the advantage of the 12-27? If it helps, I tend to try and use the middle range of my current set up so i am not crossing my chain too much as I read this is extremely inefficient.

The advantage of the 12-27 is that there's less of a jump between the gears throughout the cassette. So it should be easier to find a comfortable gear at any speed / gradient in the middle of the range and steps between gears will be smoother (both mechanically and in terms of how much power you're putting down).
Do you really need an 11 tooth? I have a 50-12 as my highest gear* and only use the top gear on reasonable decents, I've probably spun out a couple of times but so rarely that it makes no odds. Whereas having a smaller spread of gears across the cassette gives a bit more flexibility for "normal" riding.

Does that make sense?


* I should never have bought the compact chainset but that's a separate thread.

If you've been used to a 25 bottom gear then 28 is going to be like running a dinner plate on the back .... I have that dinner plate on the back and I'm aiming to swap it out for something smaller. That said, the 34/28 combo is a nice "get out" gear when you're on your last legs or you've got cramp like I did earlier this year....

Personally, from the choice and the area you're going to be riding I'd choose the 27/12 - closer ratios for the flatter sections and whilst 50/12 isn't a very high gear, by the time you're spinning out you're going fast enough and could probably do with some recovery! 34/27 is still 33" as opposed to 32" for 34/28. Your current 34/25 is 35.8"

Agree with most of this. 50/12 should get you up to about 35mph before you spin out; unless you ride in groups or have long sweeping descents you probably won't need to spend much time in 50/11.
I'd just swap the cassette for a 27-12 or close, £50 for cassette & tools (chain whip & removal tool) & do it yourself - it really isn't difficult. Your derailleur should be fine. If your chain is oldish it's a good idea to change this too (with another couple of links). If you keep the old chain it may be ok (except big-big, obv), or scrounge an extra link off someone plus a quicklink. You then have the tools & expertise to change back or go higher when go on holiday to Norfolk/get stronger.

dubcat

blinddrew wrote:

Dubcat wrote:

Guys - i can get 11-28 or 12-27. I totally don't know what to get! The 11-28 seems much more flexible. What is the advantage of the 12-27? If it helps, I tend to try and use the middle range of my current set up so i am not crossing my chain too much as I read this is extremely inefficient.

The advantage of the 12-27 is that there's less of a jump between the gears throughout the cassette. So it should be easier to find a comfortable gear at any speed / gradient in the middle of the range and steps between gears will be smoother (both mechanically and in terms of how much power you're putting down).
Do you really need an 11 tooth? I have a 50-12 as my highest gear* and only use the top gear on reasonable decents, I've probably spun out a couple of times but so rarely that it makes no odds. Whereas having a smaller spread of gears across the cassette gives a bit more flexibility for "normal" riding.

Does that make sense?


* I should never have bought the compact chainset but that's a separate thread.

Thanks very much, and yes that does make sense. I hardly every use the 11 tooth gear. Not enough to make it a consideration. I do use the lowest gear though. I am erring towards 12-27 based on what you and others wrote but a bit of me still says go for the wider gear option because i have no practical experience of struggling to find a comfortable gear, this being my first road bike.

blinddrew

Could go the whole hog and get a 12-30 cassette (you'd need to stick a couple of extra links in the chain probably - which will likely mean replacing that as well), someone may be able to correct me on this, but I think your rear mech should still be able to handle that.
See here: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cassette+ne ... f&tbm=shop

dubcat

I was hoping to just stick with the chain I have and change the cassette. By all accounts the 28 is already a very low gear so I'm not interested in going lower. It's really all about whether the jump between gears on the 11-28 are a big deal vs the flexibility this gearing gives which will tell me whether I go 11-28 or 12-27.

mugensi

styxd wrote:

I would say persevere with what you have, 34/25 is really a low gear, especially considering what people used to ride hills on.

If you can't manage to climb a hill with a 34/25 then you need to question your fitness really. If you keep going with a 34/25 then your fitness will increase and you'll find the hills you're struggling with at the moment, straightforward.

Its a really low gear if you are fit and can manage hills on it without a problem, its not low enough if you are struggling on the hills because of fitness and/or steepness of the hill.

I am reasonably fit but live in a very hilly area, no matter which road i take from my house i'm immediately onto 10-12% gradients within a mile. The 34/25 is fine for most but when my legs are cold and i'm returning from a 2 or 3 hr spin, the 25 just doesnt cut it and so i changed to an 11/28. I dont need to question my fitness, I'm just being kind to my knees/legs. I'd rather spin up a hill than grind up one, the 28 allows me to do that.

MickTheMove

As i understand it, quite a few of the riders in stage 2 of the Tour of Britain were running 32 on the back! So if it helps your enjoyment of cycling do whatever it takes, as you get fitter and stronger you will notice you dont go to the lowest gear as often!

Saying a 34/25 is a really low gear is misleading and usually only said by people that think speed humps are large climbs!

cycleclinic

A 12-27T is a better option as the 11T on a 50T chainring is pointlessly tall gearing. Or get a Miche custom 12-28T cassette. I could source one for you if you like.

Hill climbing is governed by the power output you can sustain. So long as you can sustain a cadence of about 80 or more when climbing you have the right gear as that cadence allows for efficient power development. A higher cadence of 90 when climbing will not hurt either. Spinning up hills is the way to do them quickly without wasting energy.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

IMO there is no point fitting a "macho" cassette like 11-23 gearing, if you practically never use the high gears and really struggle with the low gears for typical climbs around your area. Granted I was only using my Felt as a commuter at the time, but I eventually replaced the default cassette with I think it was a 14-27, because I was happy to freewheel down the hills and having two extra low gears (25/27) made a world of difference for getting back home again up the hills.

slowbike

NitrousOxide wrote:

IMO there is no point fitting a "macho" cassette like 11-23 gearing,

Bum - that's exactly what I have ....

But it does have triple chainrings ...

700c

Aside from the usual gearing arguments ('a 25 is for wimps', etc), I think this is an interesting thread..

I think what the OP did/ plans to do by getting a 27t bottom gear is a good idea, especially as you can then swap out individual cogs or whole cassettes and tailor your cassette depending on the ride you are planning on the day..
Which it's what I do..

Once it's had a bit of wear with the same chain it should be fine to swap without skipping. But note you can't do this with large differences in top end sprocket size due to chain length and possibly derailleur considerations.

cycleclinic

With a mihe cassette you can have what ever you want as you get individual sprockets. If you are prone to pedaling past 25mph then a 12T sprocket is useful if you don't then it is usless.

I have a 12-23 on a standard double and that is my hill climbing gearing. My old alan has 52/44 chainrings and 13-18T 6 speed freewheel. That is tough on a 10% gradient and a bit of a grind.

normanp

Spot on - thecycleclinic:
If you can't sustain better than 80 rpm on your chosen hills you need lower gears.
It's as simple as that!