a short vid of a collision involving a cyclist

EKE_38BPM

Sideways, not shoulder check. A shoulder check is looking backwards.
If you don't want to believe me, someone who has more on the road driving experience than you and is trained to a higher standard than you, then believe Mrs Sketchley who is even more highly trained than me.

And that was not my "best attempt at deflection". A better attempt would have implied that you were overweight, slow and struggled up Balham Hill. Even that wouldn't have been my "best attempt".

sketchley

Point is a quick sidewise glance is not a shoulder check, I.e turning round and looking over you shoulder. if you feel the need to do that you shouldn't be attempting the manoeuvre and haven't been checking you mirrors etc sufficiently beforehand. Fact is you would fail a driving test it you shoulder checked whilst moving.

EKE_38BPM

Sketchley wrote:

Point is a quick sidewise glance is not a shoulder check, I.e turning round and looking over you shoulder. if you feel the need to do that you shouldn't be attempting the manoeuvre and haven't been checking you mirrors etc sufficiently beforehand. Fact is you would fail a driving test it you shoulder checked whilst moving.

Wot he sed!

DonDaddyD

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Sideways, not shoulder check. A shoulder check is looking backwards.
If you don't want to believe me, someone who has more on the road driving experience than you and is trained to a higher standard than you, then believe Mrs Sketchley who is even more highly trained than me.

And that was not my "best attempt at deflection". A better attempt would have implied that you were overweight, slow and struggled up Balham Hill. Even that wouldn't have been my "best attempt".

Sketchley wrote:

Point is a quick sidewise glance is not a shoulder check, I.e turning round and looking over you shoulder. if you feel the need to do that you shouldn't be attempting the manoeuvre and haven't been checking you mirrors etc sufficiently beforehand. Fact is you would fail a driving test it you shoulder checked whilst moving.

Now you're both just struggling to argue semantics nit-picking at the difference in seconds between a glance or shoulder check. Both of you fail to realise that at no point did I suggest that you must shoulder check your blind spot.

What I wrote, which is contrary to your point, is that you must check the blind spot - and this,despite my lack of 'driving instructor training', would appear correct.

Eke claimed that you do not need to. Sketchley attempted to back that up.

I did not specify that checking the blind spot needed a shoulder check movement or a glance. So your point of glance vs shoulder check is largely moot.

Your point was that you don't need to check the blind spot while moving as mirrors should suffice, and that, despite your much vaunted 'driving instructor training', would appear to be incorrect.

sketchley

DonDaddyD wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

The only time a driver should do a shoulder check is when moving out from a parking space, otherwise, mirrors should suffice.

I can't believe you just typed that. It is really quite ridiculous.

Any time you are driving a vehicle and about to perform a manoeuvre you should check your blindspots to avoid potential situations like the one in the video.

@DDD while you didn't mention shoulder checks here's your post calling eke's comment about shoulder checks ridiculous which started all this. You can certainly tell from this why eke thought you were talking about shoulder checks.

In short though we all agree, check your blind spots but not by turning round and looking over your shoulder when moving. Use your mirrors for that and use them frequently not just when about to manoeuvre.

EKE_38BPM

Not sure if DDD is posting at me or Sketchley, but I said a look in the mirrors and through the front windows to check the blind spot should suffice. A shoulder check is unnecessary and dangerous (which is why it would be a fail on a driving test).

sketchley

Oh and eke never said not to check your blind spot. He specifically said when to shoulder check and when not too.

As we all now agree I'll shut up.

boblo

If the two highly experienced, highly qualified (one by apparently being a driving instructor and one being married to one <sigh>) are really saying you'll fail your test by checking your blind spot when pulling out, changing lanes etc, then I call cobblers I'm afraid.

This seems to be about how the words shoulder and check are interpreted. Most here mean, 'check your blind spot'. If the two instructors/husband of instructor mean different, let's hear it. Must be time for a bit of a giggle.

Oh and BTW, if you teach with this 'I'm right/you're wrong, wah, wah, wah) attitude, God help your student drivers.

DonDaddyD

Sketchley wrote:

@DDD while you didn't mention shoulder checks here's your post calling eke's comment about shoulder checks ridiculous which started all this. You can certainly tell from this why eke thought you were talking about shoulder checks.

Well then I suggest that you and Eke actually read what I write carefully. Here it is again:

I wrote:

I can't believe you just typed that. It is really quite ridiculous.

Any time you are driving a vehicle and about to perform a manoeuvre you should check your blindspots to avoid potential situations like the one in the video.

Sketchley wrote:

In short though we all agree, check your blind spots but not by turning round and looking over your shoulder when moving. Use your mirrors for that and use them frequently not just when about to manoeuvre.

I don't think we really do though. Eke's original comment did not imply that you should check your blind spots at all, glance or otherwise.

FYI:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

The only time a driver should do a shoulder check is when moving out from a parking space, otherwise, mirrors should suffice.

sketchley

we are not saying don't check you blind sport, we are saying don't shoulder check unless you are stationary. If you are in a position where you need to shoulder check to check your blind spot while moving, say changing lanes on dual carriage way it shows that you were not using mirrors sufficiently prior to this hence why you would fail

DonDaddyD

Sketchley wrote:

Oh and eke never said not to check your blind spot.

No, he actually said that when moving mirrors should suffice. Alternatively, see above.

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Not sure if DDD is posting at me or Sketchley, but I said a look in the mirrors and through the front windows to check the blind spot should suffice.

You can't check blind spots in mirros, that's why they're called blind spots. Most car wing mirrors cannot encompass the field of vision needed to cover the entire rear/rear side of the car.

Wow some epic driving instructor training that must have been.

EKE_38BPM

I didn't say that you should not check your blind spot. Looking sideways through the front windows should suffice but this is not a shoulder check.

And for clarity, I am not a driving instructor. Cycling instructor: yes. Driving instructor: no.

EKE_38BPM

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Oh and eke never said not to check your blind spot.

No, he actually said that when moving mirrors should suffice. Alternatively, see above.

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Not sure if DDD is posting at me or Sketchley, but I said a look in the mirrors and through the front windows to check the blind spot should suffice.

You can't check blind spots in mirros, that's why they're called blind spots. Most car wing mirrors cannot encompass the field of vision needed to cover the entire rear/rear side of the car.

Wow some epic driving instructor training that must have been.

I assume you don't drive with a)blinkers on, or b) a vehicle without front windows.
If my assumptions are correct, then you can look to the side to check your blind spot and only a massive idiot wouldn't look to the sides occassionally.

Anyway, you know what they say about arguing with idiots...

DonDaddyD

Sketchley wrote:

we are not saying don't check you blind sport,

Actually, yes you both are.

Eke clearly stated that checking mirrors while moving is enough. While your initial post on the subject stated mirrors should be used in moving traffic as, albeit, shoulder checking your blindspot will incur a fail in the driving test.

You cannot check a blind spot from your mirrors.

Sketchley wrote:

If you are in a position where you need to shoulder check to check your blind spot while moving, say changing lanes on dual carriage way it shows that you were not using mirrors sufficiently prior to this hence why you would fail

That's bullsh*t and contradicts what you wrote above. You either check/can check your blind spots or not. They cannot be accessed from the mirrors, and if you have managed to then you've spent too much time looking in your mirrors anyway.

DonDaddyD wrote:

253 to 273 of the Highway Code focuses on Motorways.

267: Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right. You should

take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area to verify the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror.

sketchley

@ddd you are missing the point probably deliberately (slow day at the office?). Let's say you are driving down the dual carriageway and want to over take, so you check your mirrors, indicate then decide to look over you shoulder to check the blind spot. What this shows is that you were not looking in your mirrors prior to deciding to overtake if you were then you would not need the shoulder check. Plus what happens if the car in front that you are already going faster than decides to hit the brakes, how you going to see this if your looking over your shoulder? Point being you have allowed yourself to get in a position where a shoulder check is necessary. A good driver would not need to do this as they wouldn't put themselves in that position in the first place. Please tell me you get this regardless s of what and who said whatever above.

boblo

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I didn't say that you should not check your blind spot. Looking sideways through the front windows should suffice but this is not a shoulder check.

And for clarity, I am not a driving instructor. Cycling instructor: yes. Driving instructor: no.

You did say this didn't you?

'Considering my training to be a driving instructor, I stand by my position'

Now I'm wondering how you check a blind spot by looking out if the front window. My blind spot is a bit further down the length of the car.

And BTW, resorting to calling people 'idiots' when caught out making silly statements just makes you sound a bit dafter.

<edit> blind spots are not just on the offside. You might want to check before pulling back into lane 2 in case some wally has snuck into your nearside blindspot from lane 1

slowbike

I failed my first driving test because I didn't look over my shoulder before pulling away from the kerb. What the berk of an examiner didn't know what that I hadn't stopped checking the mirrors at any point from stopping and that nobody could've got into the blind spot. Back then at least I was always checking around me - from both cycling and dinghy racing - but you try telling the old git that when you're a teenager!
Oh, the other point he failed me on was not emergency stopping when the fire chief came onto the roundabout with his bluesntwos on - again, what the old git failed to appreciate was that the fire chief was indicating left, it was a two lane roundabout and whilst I had been instructed to leave at the same exit I modified my course to stay in the other lane and continue around the roundabout, indicating that I was doing so - and most importantly, had I carried out the required emergency stop, I would've had a car in the boot because he was following too close - plus it was my mums car and not a school car. But apparently, avoiding an accident is a negative mark ...

Bitter? not half! Still, made sure I did the shoulder check on the next one and passed ...

Oh - the cyclist? Berk ... if you're going to overtake, overtake ... otherwise you're halfwheeling ... he wasn't in a lane - if he had been (either one) then the accident would have been avoided.

EKE_38BPM

I trained to be a driving instructor, but I am not a driving instructor. Clear enough.

I didn't call anyone an idiot. I did make a point about arguing with idiots and said "only a massive idiot wouldn't look to the sides occassionally" though.

DonDaddyD

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I didn't say that you should not check your blind spot. Looking sideways through the front windows should suffice but this is not a shoulder check.

That's not what you originally said. You said that looking through your mirrors would suffice. You can't see blind spots from your mirrors.

I assume you don't drive with a)blinkers on, or b) a vehicle without front windows.

If my assumptions are correct, then you can look to the side to check your blind spot and only a massive idiot wouldn't look to the sides occassionally.

It really isn't relevant what I drive, you said that checking the mirrors would suffice when moving and about to perform a manouvre. That's wrong, you can't see the blind spots from your mirrors and you should check your blind spots when making a manouvre - including changing lanes. In order to check the blind spots, windows or not, you need to physically turn your head and look. Call it a glance if that makes you happy, but just checking mirrors won't suffice.

Eke wrote:

Anyway, you know what they say about arguing with idiots...

Ah, attacking the person not the argument. I see.

Sketchley wrote:

@ddd you are missing the point probably deliberately (slow day at the office?).

How my day is at the office is really not relevant. You two are taking the time to respond, and struggling to comprehend what I have repeatedly stated for several posts now. Is your day in the office equally slow?

Sketchley wrote:

Let's say you are driving down the dual carriageway and want to over take, so you check your mirrors, indicate then decide to look over you shoulder to check the blind spot. What this shows is that you were not looking in your mirrors prior to deciding to overtake if you were then you would not need the shoulder check or sideways glance.

That's largely incorrect, the example is specific to a set of circumstance. Your mirrors do not show you the entire World behind you so no amount of looking in them is going to give you a picture of what is or will be in your blind spot. No amount of forward planning or anticipation is going to prepare you for that which you do not know is there. That's why the Highway code advises that you check before making a manourvre.

I've posted this and the Highway Code where this is stated several times now and you have chosen to ignore this. So while you may attempt to accuse me of deliberately missing the point I would advise you ask yourself the same question.

161: Mirrors. All mirrors should be used effectively throughout your journey. You should

Be aware that mirrors do not cover all areas and there will be blind spots. You will need to look round and check

163: Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out

267: Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right. You should

take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area to verify the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror.


All of which states use mirrors but also check your blindspots.

asprilla

I'm with DDD on this one.

I check my mirrors very regularly on the motorway, but I still check my blind spot when manoeuvring. Motorbikes filter at speed on the motorway so I check. Another prime example of where I check would be when joining a road via a slip road.

I also check my blind spot when doing lower speed manoeuvres in case someone, like a cyclist, has moved into my blind spot.

I mitigate the risk of the person in front braking by leaving a reasonable gap.

For the record, I don't drive Miss Daisy, but 'make good progress'.

graeme_s-2

Sketchley wrote:

I can back eke up, even if I don't necessarily agree with it... Mrs Sketchley is recently qualified driving instructor, she explained that shoulder checks except when pulling out will mean a failed test. Mirrors should be used in moving traffic as a shoulder check would mean eyes being always from front and centre for longer.

She also had examiner give her a driving fault fault for incorrect road positioning on her part 2 because she didn't drive in non-mandatory cycle lane when it was empty empty. The examiner's view, shared by a couple of other instructors i spoke with about it, is that you should as it can be interpreted as 'necessary' to maintain correct distance from the curb and Highway Code says not to drive in them unless 'necessary'. Again not something I agreed with but then again neither did Mrs Sketchley or her instructor.....

Funnily enough my instructor (passed my test in 2009) told me to look to the right so your peripheral vision covers your blind spot when turning or changing lanes and also once told me off for driving in a non-mandatory cycle lane...

graeme_s-2

Broadly speaking I think we all agree that you should glance sideways to check your blind spot. I think there's been a bit of misunderstanding based on the term "shoulder check" which I would take to mean anything from craning your head right round to look entirely backwards to rotating your head sideways so you can take a glance to the rear.

I think this is a case of writing being an imperfect means of communication when describing a physical action. If we were all sat in a pub I suspect we'd have been in agreement from the start and there would have been no argument.

ManiaMuse

Silly cyclist. Stupid place to put himself.

I'm sure he will learn his lesson.

DonDaddyD

This is a shoulder check in the purest sense of the term:



Blind spot glance:



But that's beside the point. Both Eke and Sketchley claim that you don't need to. According to Eke checking mirrors should suffice (if you're moving). According to Sketchley you'd fail your driving test if you did this.

Ironically, assuming the motorist in the video didn't check their blind spot, if they did the cyclist may not have clipped the wing mirror. Had the cyclist been aware that they were in the drivers blind spot they may not have been there in the first place.

dondare

I was very impressed with how he landed on his feet.

dondare

I was very impressed with how he landed on his feet.

sketchley

I just gone and got this from my wife's car. The Official DSA guide to driving, the essential skills 2012 edition (basically the textbook for driving instructors / pupils unfortunatly not available online, but a good read if you want to buy it). It says this on page 68 and this reflects what is currently taught. Note I've typed this so please excuse any errors.

---
Checking blind spots on the move

On occasions it will be necessary to check blind spots while you are on the move. These blind spots will be to either side and should not require you to look round, but rather give a quick sidewise glance.

Looking right round to check blind spots on the move is unnecessary and dangerous, especially when driving at high speeds; in the time is takes you'll lose touch with what's happening in front.

Regular and sensible use of the mirrors will keep you up to date with what's happening behind. You will, however still need to know when a glance into the blind sport is needed.

Take a quick sideways glance

* before changing lanes
* before joining a motorway or dual carriageway from a slip road
* before manoeuvring in situations where traffic is merging from the left or right.

Defensive driving

Recognise where other drivers' blind areas will be and avoid remaining in them longer than necessary. THhis is particularly important when over taking large vehicles.

---

Page 67 includes the following on blind spots

---
Even though you have used your mirrors, always look round over your right shoulder to check blind spot before you move off.
---

I spoke with my wife futher on this. If you didn't "look over right shoulder" before moving off you would get either a "driving fault" or a "serious" depending on circumstance and serverity. 3 driving faults for the same thing = a serious, 16 driving faults and you fail, one serious and you fail. If you "looked right round" to check a blind spot while moving and / or did not sideways glance to check the blind spot, you would also get a driving fault or a serious.

She also says the sideways glance can be a glance into a blind spot mirror which all driving instructor cars have.

Hope this clears it up.

DonDaddyD

Sketchley wrote:

Stuff

All well and good but do you now accept that:

(i) Eke, despite his much vaunted 'instructor training', was wrong by stating that once moving checking mirrors would be sufficient.

(ii) All of what you wrote above is exactly what I have written and in agreement with the extracts from the highway code that I provided yesterday.

(iii) How blind spots should be checked is nonconsequetial to my point that they should be checked before making a manouvre whether moving or not.

CiB

I agree with DDD.

As we're on about questionable interpretations of what seems like an overlap between semantics and common sense (and blind-spot sideways glance / shoulder checks fall into that), can any of our driving instructors or people who've passed the test in the recent past comment on this?

I read somewhere recently that it's considered a serious (i.e. a fail) if on the driving test you encounter a 20mph advisory speed limit (e.g. outside a school at chucking out time) and you slow down to that speed. The logic IIRC is that you're unnecessairly holding up traffic. The concensus was that this is the current thinking and that an examiner would fail an eximanee for slowing down is this situation. Shome mishtake shurely?

sketchley

i) EKE originally said "The only time a driver should do a shoulder check is when moving out from a parking space, otherwise, mirrors should suffice". "should suffice" and "would be sufficient" have suttle but important differences in meaning. If you are being pedantic, and you are, then I have to disagree. Plus to be ultra picky on this all driving instructors now use blind spot mirrors (at least all the ones I know) and the sideways glance can be into the blind spot mirror. So unless moving off "mirrors should suffice" providing they are correctly adjusted and cover the blind spot.

ii) Yes and I said that earlier "In short though we all agree, check your blind spots but not by turning round and looking over your shoulder when moving. Use your mirrors for that and use them frequently not just when about to manoeuvre."

iii) Yes and I always understood your point. Now please do me and EKE the favour of conceeding the point that "Shoulder Checks", the original starting point of EKE posts that you took offence too, should not be used whilst moving and should infact only be used when "moving off" if you do this I think we are done.