Cyclist killed in London

AdrianStuart

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23959657

The below stat shocked me!

"Between 2008 and 2012, HGVs were involved in 53% of London cyclist deaths despite making up only 4% of the traffic."

southdownswolf

Probably because of the amount of cyclists that still insist on going up the inside of HGV's that are about to turn left....

arran77

Very sad

Without knowing the full facts sadly this ^ and other avoidable factors are often to blame

GiantMike

Sad day. Let's not judge without facts. In fact, let's not judge at all.

gubber12345

southdownswolf wrote:

Probably because of the amount of cyclists that still insist on going up the inside of HGV's that are about to turn left....

^this...+1...as a truck driver myself its unreal how many people try to undertake on the inside....not just cyclists but car drivers as well even when the indicator is on.most people don't understand the blind spots on trucks until they actually sit in one.

sad news about someone being killed tho....never nice.

Roberto di Velo

There was a feature on the Cycle Show a few weeks back, with a copper demonstrating the blind spots on one of the very big construction wagons. The point was supposedly about where cyclists should be positioning themselves to be seen, but I was amazed that its road legal to have vehicles with such impaired visibility.

Anyway, it's a very sad statistic. I'm far from convinced that its all due to cyclists passing lorries on the inside.

guinea

southdownswolf wrote:

Probably because of the amount of cyclists that still insist on going up the inside of HGV's that are about to turn left....

You mean using the cycle path?

The fact is if you are in a big truck and have blind spots you shouldn't be on the road. If you can't see where you're going you're a danger.

arran77

guinea wrote:

southdownswolf wrote:

Probably because of the amount of cyclists that still insist on going up the inside of HGV's that are about to turn left....

You mean using the cycle path?

The fact is if you are in a big truck and have blind spots you shouldn't be on the road. If you can't see where you're going you're a danger.

Are you serious?

That's got to be one of the daftest things I've ever heard :roll:

southdownswolf

guinea wrote:

southdownswolf wrote:

Probably because of the amount of cyclists that still insist on going up the inside of HGV's that are about to turn left....

You mean using the cycle path?

The fact is if you are in a big truck and have blind spots you shouldn't be on the road. If you can't see where you're going you're a danger.

Just because you are on a cycle path, does not mean that you can argue with a HGV. Unfortunately the HGV will always win. Most vehicles have blind spots, as a cyclist you should be aware of that fact.


By the way, in no way are any of my comments on this thread trying to theorise what happened to the lady that died today. They are just a general comment to the initial stat.

gubber12345

guinea wrote:

southdownswolf wrote:

Probably because of the amount of cyclists that still insist on going up the inside of HGV's that are about to turn left....

You mean using the cycle path?

The fact is if you are in a big truck and have blind spots you shouldn't be on the road. If you can't see where you're going you're a danger.

you really don't know what your talking about guinea do you...can you see the ground on the left hand side of your car when sitting in the drivers seat???????????????????

sagefly

I ride in London daily on my commute and training rides.

As a former LGV driver I understand the way a vehicle turns, it physics.

Never ever ever ever ride up the inside of a truck, lorry, wagon, caravan or bus.

Its basic commonsense, hold back 30 seconds and we will all be safe and continue to enjoy our sport or pastime.

Notwithstanding that roundabouts are amazingly dangerous, not even vehicle drivers can use them correctly.

Stay back and stay safer.

awavey

sagefly wrote:

I ride in London daily on my commute and training rides.

As a former LGV driver I understand the way a vehicle turns, it physics.

Never ever ever ever ride up the inside of a truck, lorry, wagon, caravan or bus.

Its basic commonsense, hold back 30 seconds and we will all be safe and continue to enjoy our sport or pastime.

Notwithstanding that roundabouts are amazingly dangerous, not even vehicle drivers can use them correctly.

Stay back and stay safer.

ok Id never choose to ride up the inside of a truck, bus or long vehicle of any description,as that much I have control over, thats something I can do to increase my own safety and I dont have an issue doing that as I know the physics too and they favour the truck.

but when those types of vehicle choose to overtake you, and then either most commonly immediately veer back across before the overtake is complete, or worse then try to hook turn directly in front of you, then what ?

how does any cyclist protect themselves in that kind of situation when something the size of a lorry or bus treats you as if you werent there at all, because the physics still favour the truck, but now your safety has been compromised through no fault of your own and you'd better hope theres some available escape route out of that situation for you to take or your about to have a very bad day, and in London most often those escape routes are blocked by other vehicles or street furniture.

Dazza @>@'

sagefly wrote:

I ride in London daily on my commute and training rides.

As a former LGV driver I understand the way a vehicle turns, it physics.

Never ever ever ever ride up the inside of a truck, lorry, wagon, caravan or bus.

Its basic commonsense, hold back 30 seconds and we will all be safe and continue to enjoy our sport or pastime.

Notwithstanding that roundabouts are amazingly dangerous, not even vehicle drivers can use them correctly.

Stay back and stay safer.

+1
I drive in LONDON everyday (well at work I do otherwise I hate the place) I wish there were more of you on the roads with that attitude to cycling.

Caller

guinea wrote:

The fact is if you are in a big truck and have blind spots you shouldn't be on the road. If you can't see where you're going you're a danger.

As someone's already mentioned, all vehicles whether they're cars, vans, trucks or motorbikes all have blind spots. As the blind spots tend to be behind the driver, it's difficult to constantly monitor them while trying to watch where you're going, namely forward.

It's not really difficult is it? Don't ride up the inside of vehicles at junctions. If you're not there then they can't hit you.

It doesn't matter who's in the right and who's in the wrong. People need to use common sense to try and stop themselves getting squashed.

phreak

Something I've noticed as well is that on a left hand bend (not a corner), cars will often overtake you and then look for the apex of the bend before they're safely out of your way.

Sadly you only really tend to pick up on these things through experience, but it really is better to err on the side of caution when riding in London and give drivers as much room as possible.

Having ridden around the Thurlow Park area a fair bit, I'd never really associated it as a dangerous part of town (certainly compared to other areas), but it's always sad to hear of another fatality on the roads.

AdrianStuart

Quick question,

Lets say the traffic ahead of you is at a stand still for miles. Cars on the other side of the road are flowing as normal.

Do you stick to the left hand side of the road and undertake stationery cars or move to the right and face oncoming traffic?

Guanajuato

awavey wrote:

but when those types of vehicle choose to overtake you, and then either most commonly immediately veer back across before the overtake is complete, or worse then try to hook turn directly in front of you, then what ?

Unfortunately, high-profile cases with CCTV evidence show that this kind of overtake & left hook are the more common cause. If the actions of the driver have put them in that blind spot, then its the driver's fault entirely. Cyclists who go up the inside of a large vehicle are putting themselves at huge risk. But drivers overtaking like that are putting someone ELSE at huge risk. HANG BACK equally applies to motor vehicle drivers too.

phreak

AdrianStuart wrote:

Quick question,

Lets say the traffic ahead of you is at a stand still for miles. Cars on the other side of the road are flowing as normal.

Do you stick to the left hand side of the road and undertake stationery cars or move to the right and face oncoming traffic?

In my experience, the most dangerous thing in that kind of situation is pedestrians popping out from in between the stationery cars. I've tried going up the inside (in the cycle lane) and up the outside, and both seem to carry the same risk in that regard.

One more thing to keep an eye out for.

Roberto di Velo

Guanajuato wrote:

awavey wrote:

but when those types of vehicle choose to overtake you, and then either most commonly immediately veer back across before the overtake is complete, or worse then try to hook turn directly in front of you, then what ?

Unfortunately, high-profile cases with CCTV evidence show that this kind of overtake & left hook are the more common cause. If the actions of the driver have put them in that blind spot, then its the driver's fault entirely. Cyclists who go up the inside of a large vehicle are putting themselves at huge risk. But drivers overtaking like that are putting someone ELSE at huge risk. HANG BACK equally applies to motor vehicle drivers too.

Going back to my point about the blind spot on large construction vehicles, because of the height of the cabs it's absolutely massive! You could easily get a dozen cyclist in it.

I don't blame the drivers, but I do blame the operators and legislators who allow them to operate with such poor visibility.

hatch87

http://road.cc/content/news/78863-londo ... rban-lorry

Hopefully theses will become compulsory one day

djhermer

AdrianStuart wrote:

Quick question,

Lets say the traffic ahead of you is at a stand still for miles. Cars on the other side of the road are flowing as normal.

Do you stick to the left hand side of the road and undertake stationery cars or move to the right and face oncoming traffic?

For over ten years i always stuck to the kerb. That was until 12 months ago when doing this, in a cycle path, when a passenger in one of the queing cars decided he was bored of waiting, so opened his door to get out. His door swinging right out into the cycle path. How i wasn't 'doored' i'll never know. But i still took a nasty fall as i tried to bunnyhop onto the kerb and failed. Needless to say he was very embarrassed. He didn't even think to check his wing mirror.

So now, i always flow on the outside of the traffic. Yes it's towards the oncoming traffic, but by taking it steady it leaves the ability to dip in and out as required. It's dangerous. But you have to make progress somehow and I feel more in control of the situation flowing down the outside.

Guanajuato

Roberto di Velo wrote:

Going back to my point about the blind spot on large construction vehicles, because of the height of the cabs it's absolutely massive! You could easily get a dozen cyclist in it.

I agree entirely. And a cyclist who chooses to put themselves in that position really needs their head examining.

Roberto di Velo wrote:

I don't blame the drivers, but I do blame the operators and legislators who allow them to operate with such poor visibility.

Its the situation where the driver of the vehicle has chosen to put the cyclist in the blind spot by overtaking that IS to blame. If you overtake a cyclist, you KNOW they are there when they go into the blind spot. Just because you can no longer see them doesn't mean they cease to exist. They cannot magically transport themselves out of the situation the driver has just put them in. So if you're in a lorry about to turn left, HANG BACK. Its physics.

cookeeemonster

Reading some of these comments depresses me.

There really is a large number of w*nkers on these forums.

arran77

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Reading some of these comments depresses me.

There really is a large number of w*nkers on these forums.

That's a bit sweeping......who?

:roll:

cookeeemonster

arran77 wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Reading some of these comments depresses me.

There really is a large number of w*nkers on these forums.

That's a bit sweeping......who?

:roll:

I'll let you decide...or disagree

Peace and love to all

the_cyclist_of_catan

AdrianStuart wrote:

Quick question,

Lets say the traffic ahead of you is at a stand still for miles. Cars on the other side of the road are flowing as normal.

Do you stick to the left hand side of the road and undertake stationery cars or move to the right and face oncoming traffic?

Personally I feel a LOT safer going up the middle, facing the oncoming traffic. I can see them, they can see me, drivers to my left tend to look in their right-hand mirror a LOT more than the left-hand one, and they're not likely to suddenly open their doors or turn right without indicating (except that last one - minivan drivers have to be watched like hawks).

Though I agree that the comments blaming the cyclist for putting themselves on the left-hand side of HGVs both smacks of victim-blaming, ignores where the highways authority puts the cycle lanes, and presumes that the HGV wasn't going faster than the bike and didn't just overtake.

ManOfKent

The piece on "The Cycle Show" referred to earlier shocked me and has changed the way I ride in traffic. I had no idea lorries' blindspots were so big - basically the entire left side of the lorry and right across the front below the level of the windscreen. Some of these areas are partially covered by mirrors but unless the driver happens to be looking at the moment you creep past, he'll have no idea you're there. And if there's a group of cyclists ahead at the lights, the driver will be able to see them move away but can't see any stragglers right in front of his cab.

I will now go up the inside of a lorry only if it's stationary and clearly will not move before I get to the front, and provided the gap is wideish. If it's a tipper or concrete mixer I stay back; those account for nearly all lorry-related cycling fatalities if my recollection of Evening Standard stories is correct. And I certainly wouldn't want to be directly in front of a lorry at the lights.

Someone here mentioned pedestrians crossing in traffic. Yesterday, I very nearly hit a man who ran out from behind an ambulance; I think Alanis Morrisette might have considered that ironic. I've also learned to become suspicious of anything that looks like a vehicle-width gap in stationary traffic: it's often there because someone is trying to let an oncoming vehicle turn, that I most likely can't see if I'm on the nearside.

I'm fortunate that I've never (as far as I can recall) been overtaken by a lorry that immediately turned left, although it's happened a few times with cars. I have to say that despite the cautions above I don't feel constantly endangered riding in London. There's something in safety in numbers, and road users generally are alert to the presence of cyclists too.

hoojammyflip

Given cars have all these parking detectors mounted on them nowadays, could we maybe have something similar for lorries, warning the driver when something is within 0.5m, and maybe applying brakes automatically. Equally, maybe have lorries equipped with automatic warning speakers/sirens/fog horns which when the detect a cyclist going down the left, give the cyclist an almighty blast.

When you take motorbike training, you get given all this information about how dangerous lorries are, and that lorries cannot see you in front of them. I did my training in London and the instructor said basically, if there is a lorry at the lights, park up into the cyclist area ahead of them, and the police will understand why you have done it and not punish you. I seem to remember it was something like a whole car's length is invisible in front of the lorry driver. It seems insane that these vehicles are being driven around like this, with such poor visibility, when London is so congested. Irrespective of any fault or blame, this is a basic design problem of the way a lorry is constructed. You wouldn't do it with a London bus, having the driver 2m up in the sky. Alternatively, maybe restrict the hours which lorries can use the roads.

Very sad news, thinking of her friends and family.

monkimark

hoojammyflip wrote:

Given cars have all these parking detectors mounted on them nowadays, could we maybe have something similar for lorries, warning the driver when something is within 0.5m, and maybe applying brakes automatically. Equally, maybe have lorries equipped with automatic warning speakers/sirens/fog horns which when the detect a cyclist going down the left, give the cyclist an almighty blast.
.

They are available and in use by some contractors.
http://www.fors-online.org.uk/index.php ... S_KELTBRAY

Having sat in the cabs of various tipper trucks & concrete wagons on site, the size of the blind spots is quite scary.

gubber12345

hoojammyflip wrote:

Alternatively, maybe restrict the hours which lorries can use the roads.

there is..its called drivers hours regulations

binsted

Firstly condolences, it is sad to hear of the death of any cyclist.

There is a fundamental need to eyeball any vehicle driver that may pose a threat and for years now a lot of buses/hgv's have signs saying "if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you", this can be taken further to read if you cannot see the driver in the mirror you are in a blind spot.

Driving sensors will help but educating cyclists needs to contribute too.