Sky train
Comments
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Yellow Peril wrote:
I think this is the real point. 9 ascents at a an pace expected to foil anyone jumping off the front was a reasonably tall order. A nail biting race spoilt only by the eventual winner
Well, on the day Vino won fair and square... he doped, he served his ban, he was tested with the most sophisticated analyses available, he turned out clean... he won attacking and not sucking wheels... not sure what's not to like about Vino's Olympic gold... :roll:
If you prefer a mediocre rider that was never caught to win, I don't... I think it's unfair to criminalise the individual rider when the all sport was corrupted to the bone... those who were caught were not more guilty than those who were not... was Savoldelli ever clean? Was Simoni clean? Indurain? Chiappucci? Nobody was clean and Vino on a bike was class...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Nobody was clean and Vino on a bike was class...
...apart from when he was bribing riders to win races like LBL
I take your point about them all being dirty, but my disappointment with Vino's 2012 win was that it harks back to the 'old era' and would have preferred a new generation rider like Uran (or Cav) to have won instead...0 -
dish_dash wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Nobody was clean and Vino on a bike was class...
...apart from when he was bribing riders to win races like LBL
I take your point about them all being dirty, but my disappointment with Vino's 2012 win was that it harks back to the 'old era' and would have preferred a new generation rider like Uran (or Cav) to have won instead...
Well, Uran was there and could not match a vintage Vino... he clearly was not the best... Cav was nowhere to be seen, on the day he was irrelevant. The best on the day won the race.
Bribing is as old as doping and it's part of the game... most of the alleged briberies are urban myths (there is one involving Basso and Simoni in 2006 as well)left the forum March 20230 -
Stillnox wrote:
I think that is an interesting observation and it looks like I am not the only one disagreeing with it. Could you elaborate on that thesis? Riding Giro and Tour, where he was more of a mountaindomestique than a sprinter, he even had to ask to be allowed to sprint for a stage win, is that a sensible schedule?Wallace and Gromit wrote:Riding for Sky meant Cav could prepare for the Olympics with a sensible schedule. On any other team, Cav's Olympic ambitions would have taken a back seat.
Yes. Cav needed the hill work and the endurance base for the Olympic RR given its length and hilliness, so if he'd not ridden the Tour and the Giro he'd have needed to do something similar in training. The advantage of riding for Sky is that he avoided being flogged early season or between Giro and Tour to bag "sh*tty" wins (as Cav might call them) as Sir Dave really wanted the OG road race and Cav clearly craves an Olympic gold.
Winning the RR was always a long shot, given that one day races are always unpredictable, Sky/GB are tactically dodgy at times in one day races, it had hills and the team sizes were 5 rather than 9 per the World Champs.0 -
SSRs - one of Cav's finest verbalisms
EDIT:
Cav had all of Sky's support at the Giro for stages + the maglia rosso (which he only lost out on to Purito by 1 point, remember). All of the team were there to work for stages for him except Uran and Henaom, who had to fend for themselves in the mountains. The team worked for him on every sprint stage, and he got great lead outs from Kennaugh and Thomas for the 3 stages he won.
As for the Tour, Sky worked for him on stage 2, till what, at 3k to go when he told Eisel and EBH that he'd take care of himself and he freestyled to the win all about the Lotto train. Then 2 critical things happened that pulled Sky up short: on stage 3, they lost Suitsou with a fractured leg - now down to 8 riders with almost the entire Tour still to be ridden. Then on stage 4, Cav and Eisel crashed. These things led to an even more cautious approach by the team with regards to Cav's personal ambitions.
Wiggins was the one who said before stage 18, 'we're riding for Cav today'. And they were always going to set things up for Cav for the Champs.
He still ended up with 1 more Tour stage win than this year with all of OPQS working for him 0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Yellow Peril wrote:
I think this is the real point. 9 ascents at a an pace expected to foil anyone jumping off the front was a reasonably tall order. A nail biting race spoilt only by the eventual winner
Well, on the day Vino won fair and square... he doped, he served his ban, he was tested with the most sophisticated analyses available, he turned out clean... he won attacking and not sucking wheels... not sure what's not to like about Vino's Olympic gold... :roll:
If you prefer a mediocre rider that was never caught to win, I don't... I think it's unfair to criminalise the individual rider when the all sport was corrupted to the bone... those who were caught were not more guilty than those who were not... was Savoldelli ever clean? Was Simoni clean? Indurain? Chiappucci? Nobody was clean and Vino on a bike was class...
I accept what you say and hats off to him he read the race so well. On another point would you like to be sat in a car waiting to cross a busy road junction with Uran sat behind the wheel?0 -
madasahattersley wrote:Yellow Peril wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:There's a lot of sneering about how easy box hill is.
I was there and i saw a fair bit of attrition after 9 ascents.
Has the same stats as the Poggio and that too causes problems.
Seems entirely reasonable Cav would lose a little weight for the Olympics.
I think this is the real point. 9 ascents at a an pace expected to foil anyone jumping off the front was a reasonably tall order. A nail biting race spoilt only by the eventual winner
Chinny was in good form that day until he binned it. Does anyone think that he could have won the TT if he hadn't have taken that tumble?
Nah doubt it, I reckon Wiggo was completely unstoppable at that time. Even at his 'TT peak' I'm not so sure
Yes Wiggo was unstoppable, not sure about beating Chinny at his TT peak though, it would have been a good contest. I really did think that Cancellara would have bridged the break had he negotiated that turn.0 -
I'm curious to see if threre are any developments in the Sky train for next season. Froome's train was a bit nore fragile than Wiggo's . I don' think other teams will be as intimidated in the coming year.0
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This is a Skytrain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZ-ZII44lU0
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Personally the phrase always reminds me of Freddie Laker:Paulie W wrote:This is a Skytrain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZ-ZII44lU
Twitter: @RichN950 -
No, this is the original skytrain
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The major GC teams have all beefed up* their rosters of climbers
CANT WAIT - MOUNTAIN WAR (hopefully)
*no pun, honest0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:The major GC teams have all beefed up* their rosters of climbers
CANT WAIT - MOUNTAIN WAR (hopefully)
*no pun, honest
How does one beef up their rosters?
Astana & Saxo are fairly much the same? Movistar too.
If anything Sky have Nieve and are stronger.0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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This is as good a place to put it as any...
There's an interesting podcast series that Clive Woodward (he of England Rugby fame) is doing where he's talking to managers/coaches etc on the bbc - find it on the 5 live sports special page - 2 certain people are asking why it is that Sky are so dominant. Well the recent one is with Christian Horner from the Red Bull Team. It is very interesting to not that the principles that he applies to F1, Woodward applied to Rugby and Sky/ Team GB apply to cycling are very similar. Notably all 3 have become dominant in their particular sports.
It's worth a listen if it's the sort of thing you actually want to know and are not just trying to wriggle out of an argument.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Over the summer I was having a chat with a physio who had recently been doing a lot of work for British Rowing and he was talking about how they do things and a lot of it was very familiar.ddraver wrote:This is as good a place to put it as any...
There's an interesting podcast series that Clive Woodward (he of England Rugby fame) is doing where he's talking to managers/coaches etc on the bbc - find it on the 5 live sports special page - 2 certain people are asking why it is that Sky are so dominant. Well the recent one is with Christian Horner from the Red Bull Team. It is very interesting to not that the principles that he applies to F1, Woodward applied to Rugby and Sky/ Team GB apply to cycling are very similar. Notably all 3 have become dominant in their particular sports.
It's worth a listen if it's the sort of thing you actually want to know and are not just trying to wriggle out of an argument.Twitter: @RichN950 -
"It's worth a listen if it's the sort of thing you actually want to know and are not just trying to wriggle out of an argument"
Please explain what you mean ddraver0 -
whiteboytrash wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:The major GC teams have all beefed up* their rosters of climbers
CANT WAIT - MOUNTAIN WAR (hopefully)
*no pun, honest
How does one beef up their rosters?
Astana & Saxo are fairly much the same? Movistar too.
If anything Sky have Nieve and are stronger.
'How does one beef up their rosters?'
By hiring more / better climbers that you have lost/let go
Astana have hired for next season: Scarponi, Westra, Landa
Movistar have hired: Anton, Gadret, Ion Izagirre, Gorka Izagirre
'If anything Sky have Nieve and are stronger'
Dont know how you make that out in specific relation to Nieve. He's no more than a straight swap for Uran.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:The major GC teams have all beefed up* their rosters of climbers
CANT WAIT - MOUNTAIN WAR (hopefully)
*no pun, honest
How does one beef up their rosters?
Astana & Saxo are fairly much the same? Movistar too.
If anything Sky have Nieve and are stronger.
'How does one beef up their rosters?'
By hiring more / better climbers that you have lost/let go
Astana have hired for next season: Scarponi, Westra, Landa
Movistar have hired: Anton, Gadret, Ion Izagirre, Gorka Izagirre
'If anything Sky have Nieve and are stronger'
Dont know how you make that out in specific relation to Nieve. He's no more than a straight swap for Uran.
Thanks.
Saxo still appear a little depleted on the climbing front?0 -
ddraver wrote:This is as good a place to put it as any...
There's an interesting podcast series that Clive Woodward (he of England Rugby fame) is doing where he's talking to managers/coaches etc on the bbc - find it on the 5 live sports special page - 2 certain people are asking why it is that Sky are so dominant. Well the recent one is with Christian Horner from the Red Bull Team. It is very interesting to not that the principles that he applies to F1, Woodward applied to Rugby and Sky/ Team GB apply to cycling are very similar. Notably all 3 have become dominant in their particular sports.
It's worth a listen if it's the sort of thing you actually want to know and are not just trying to wriggle out of an argument.
I wouldn't suggest that Woodward has a sterling track record bar the Rugby World Cup.
Different is not always better.
What are these principles that he refers?0 -
You mean the one he won? The only Northern Hemisphere team to do so? Also, the team voted as the best World Cup Winning team? (though I suspect that may have been pre NZ)
Christ you'd argue Black was white if one of us posted the opposite wouldnt you...
Youre going on the list, it's boring now...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
dupe0
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whiteboytrash wrote:ddraver wrote:This is as good a place to put it as any...
There's an interesting podcast series that Clive Woodward (he of England Rugby fame) is doing where he's talking to managers/coaches etc on the bbc - find it on the 5 live sports special page - 2 certain people are asking why it is that Sky are so dominant. Well the recent one is with Christian Horner from the Red Bull Team. It is very interesting to not that the principles that he applies to F1, Woodward applied to Rugby and Sky/ Team GB apply to cycling are very similar. Notably all 3 have become dominant in their particular sports.
It's worth a listen if it's the sort of thing you actually want to know and are not just trying to wriggle out of an argument.
I wouldn't suggest that Woodward has a sterling track record bar the Rugby World Cup.
Different is not always better.
What are these principles that he refers?
Why not seek out the podcasts and listen for yourself? Otherwise you'll be relying on someone else to quote or summarise what is said, and, well, people can misquote or provide an inaccurate summary, cant they...0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:ddraver wrote:This is as good a place to put it as any...
There's an interesting podcast series that Clive Woodward (he of England Rugby fame) is doing where he's talking to managers/coaches etc on the bbc - find it on the 5 live sports special page - 2 certain people are asking why it is that Sky are so dominant. Well the recent one is with Christian Horner from the Red Bull Team. It is very interesting to not that the principles that he applies to F1, Woodward applied to Rugby and Sky/ Team GB apply to cycling are very similar. Notably all 3 have become dominant in their particular sports.
It's worth a listen if it's the sort of thing you actually want to know and are not just trying to wriggle out of an argument.
I wouldn't suggest that Woodward has a sterling track record bar the Rugby World Cup.
Different is not always better.
What are these principles that he refers?
Why not seek out the podcasts and listen for yourself? Otherwise you'll be relying on someone else to quote or summarise what is said, and, well, people can misquote or provide an inaccurate summary, cant they...
You know me. I've read the Walsh book and listened to the two most recent podcasts so I'd be happy to before forming an opinion.
Is there a link?0 -
ddraver wrote:You mean the one he won? The only Northern Hemisphere team to do so? Also, the team voted as the best World Cup Winning team? (though I suspect that may have been pre NZ)
Christ you'd argue Black was white if one of us posted the opposite wouldnt you...
Youre going on the list, it's boring now...
I agree, it was impressive, albeit 10 years ago. He had a mighty team though. They were good and injury free for that WC window.
I think he went to Southampton for a while? Can't remember. Then swimming.
He's shopped around a but to find a place where he fits.
He's no Brailsford though in terms of track record.0 -
He was Elite Performance Director for the British Olympic Association, 2006-2012. 113 medals, 49 of them Gold.whiteboytrash wrote:
I agree, it was impressive, albeit 10 years ago. He had a mighty team though. They were good and injury free for that WC window.
I think he went to Southampton for a while? Can't remember. Then swimming.
He's shopped around a but to find a place where he fits.
He's no Brailsford though in terms of track record.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
He was Elite Performance Director for the British Olympic Association, 2006-2012. 113 medals, 49 of them Gold.whiteboytrash wrote:
I agree, it was impressive, albeit 10 years ago. He had a mighty team though. They were good and injury free for that WC window.
I think he went to Southampton for a while? Can't remember. Then swimming.
He's shopped around a but to find a place where he fits.
He's no Brailsford though in terms of track record.
Thanks! Then I change my position. He does have a good track record. I wasn't in Britain at the time so missed most of that. Cheers.0 -
I agree for the most part, race strategy and all, I just think a man who can win Milano San Remo while climbing the Cipressa and the Poggio at a furious pace doesnt need the shed (at least) 8 pounds to survive Box Hill.Wallace and Gromit wrote:Yes. Cav needed the hill work and the endurance base for the Olympic RR given its length and hilliness, so if he'd not ridden the Tour and the Giro he'd have needed to do something similar in training. The advantage of riding for Sky is that he avoided being flogged early season or between Giro and Tour to bag "sh*tty" wins (as Cav might call them) as Sir Dave really wanted the OG road race and Cav clearly craves an Olympic gold.
Winning the RR was always a long shot, given that one day races are always unpredictable, Sky/GB are tactically dodgy at times in one day races, it had hills and the team sizes were 5 rather than 9 per the World Champs.
He also seems to have lost a bit of his former ''kick'' in the sprints, could it be the 8 slash 10 pounds he lost last year did him more harm than good? I mean, 10 pounds is roughly 7% of his bodyweight, that is a lot for an allready in prime form athlete.0
