Improved descending skills

Peddle Up!

I’ve posted here previously about my poor descending skills and how (almost) everyone else seems to whizz by me on a ride. By practicing I’ve managed to slowly increase my downhill speed, but I still don’t feel comfortable to simply let the bike “run” on steeper hills.

When I crest a hill I shift back a little, put my weight on the pedals to lower the bike’s centre of gravity and off I go. I grip the hoods lightly, and I’m starting to experiment with descending in the drops. So far, so good.

But, as the speed builds I reach a point where I feel the bike is “getting away from me” and when I apply the brakes, by tightening my grip the road vibration is transferred to my arms and the whole setup feels significantly less stable. So I tend to brake earlier than my “courage limit” allows to compensate.

How on earth do I overcome this limitation? All “Rule 5”, MTFU, HTFU comments taken as read.

But seriously, has anyone overcome a fear of descending successfully and would be willing to share how they did it?

Thanks.

marcusjb

Definitely practice at using the drops on descents. It puts you in much better control, especially with regards to being able to get the best out of the brakes.

Barteos

Peddle Up! wrote:

But, as the speed builds I reach a point where I feel the bike is “getting away from me” and when I apply the brakes, by tightening my grip the road vibration is transferred to my arms and the whole setup feels significantly less stable.
How on earth do I overcome this limitation? All “Rule 5”, MTFU, HTFU comments taken as read.
Thanks.

Wider tyres, lower pressure. Faster and safer.
Oh... and use the drops.

city_boy

Still a beginner myself and certainly no 'expert' descender but my descending has improved quite a bit, mainly by learning to relax on the bike, especially in the upper body, arms and shoulders. I know it sounds corny, but by being relaxed you feel more at one with the bike and you feel you have more time to react and ride with more confidence.
I find the more tense I am, the more nervous I am and feel less steady and confident.

Peddle Up!

City Boy wrote:

Still a beginner myself and certainly no 'expert' descender but my descending has improved quite a bit, mainly by learning to relax on the bike, especially in the upper body, arms and shoulders. I know it sounds corny, but by being relaxed you feel more at one with the bike and you feel you have more time to react and ride with more confidence.
I find the more tense I am, the more nervous I am and feel less steady and confident.

Absolutely agree but it's when I pull on the brakes that I "recouple" with the bike and that's when the whole thing feels (gets!) less stable. That's the problem I need to solve.

andrewjoseph

Try putting your knees on the top tube to brace yourself and help reduce speed wobbles.

Are your arms bent at the elbows or locked out straight?

It will come, try not to rush it.

Peddle Up!

andrewjoseph wrote:

Try putting your knees on the top tube to brace yourself and help reduce speed wobbles.

Are your arms bent at the elbows or locked out straight?

It will come, try not to rush it.

Elbows slightly bent.

chrisaonabike

The descent I'm most chicken on is coming down Broomfield Hill in Richmond Park. I freewheeled all the way down every time - without a second thought - without touching the brakes when I was a kid, I just can't do it now.

So I've been working on letting go of the brakes a little bit further up each time. Mostly I go round clockwise (so I'm going up BH not down it) but when I go anti, I am getting gradually better.

IMO, there's no point at all telling people to relax. Of course it's true that it's better when you're relaxed, but IME, relaxation comes as a consequence of competence and hence confidence; it's not something that I can voluntarily do when basically, I'm scared.

city_boy

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

IMO, there's no point at all telling people to relax. Of course it's true that it's better when you're relaxed, but IME, relaxation comes as a consequence of competence and hence confidence; it's not something that I can voluntarily do when basically, I'm scared.

That's a fair point Chris, it is easier said than done. I did find though, making a conscious effort to try and be a bit looser on the bike, especially in the arms and shoulders and not gripping the handlebars for dear life, it did start to feel more controlled on the descent, and confidence built from that.

I do agree though, it's a bit chicken and egg.

chrisaonabike

City Boy wrote:

making a conscious effort to try and be a bit looser on the bike, especially in the arms and shoulders and not gripping the handlebars for dear life, it did start to feel more controlled on the descent, and confidence built from that.

I don't doubt this at all. That's technique though, initially deliberate, later I guess unconscious, that led to control (competence) and hence confidence.

Maybe the usual advice to relax is just worded wrong, and it should be phrased as you have, with specific things to consciously do, that will lead to greater competence.

desweller

Check your setup. If your saddle is too high or you are otherwise too far forward then your weight on the bike will not feel under control. Try hanging your backside out over the rear wheel.

sdalby

As above, stay relaxed on the bike. If your legs and arms are fully tensed and you're gripping on for dear life then every little change in the road surface transfers itself through the bike onto you and that's when it starts feeling unstable. Taking technique from MTB you need to let the bike move underneath you and keep your body stable. If you're going around corners try to push the bike through into the road as much as possible and look for the exit where you want to aim for rather than looking at the bushes or barriers where you don't want to end up.

chrisaonabike

sdalby wrote:

If you're going around corners try to push the bike through into the road as much as possible

What does this bit mean?

bails1310

Peddle Up! wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

Try putting your knees on the top tube to brace yourself and help reduce speed wobbles.

Massive +1 on this. I had a horrible speed wobble on my bike and lost lots of confidence. I usually lock my left leg straight down and wedge my ledt knee cap just under the top tube which has helped a lot.

Also, I have changed bars and dropped a couple of spacers which may have helped as it always felt 'loose' above a certain speed.

Love descending now, happy and in control at 40+

It is just practice to build confidence but there are things that you can so yourself.

suzyb

Cornering while descending is my weakness, especially around blind corners or when the road surface is patchy. I'm just too scared to lean the bike over

Peddle Up!

suzyb wrote:

Cornering while descending is my weakness, especially around blind corners or when the road surface is patchy. I'm just too scared to lean the bike over

Sound practice, if you ask me!

chrisaonabike

suzyb wrote:

Cornering while descending is my weakness, especially around blind corners or when the road surface is patchy. I'm just too scared to lean the bike over

You and me both.

TommyB61

Some interesting thoughts on here & some useful tips too. Thanks to the hints on this forum & plenty of practice I'm gradually getting used to descending at pace, & starting to enjoy it a bit as well.

However, what really hold me back is what lurks at the bottom of descents. There's a great one near me - West Hythe Hill - which is great to hone descending skills on...except that there's a side road on the left at the bottom of it which cars pull out of, often without checking what's coming down the hill. Knowing that that might be waiting for me really scares me. How do you folks cope with something like that?

desweller

I have something similar. Not a super fast descent, but you can be going along mid-30s quite easy, but there's a T-junction onto the road where people simply have no visibility in the summer.

I slow down significantly and run well into the middle of the road for that one.

philwint

Maybe try some "cross training" on a mountain bike? I learnt my bike handling on the MTB over nearly 20 years, and transitioning to the road was very easy.

Took me an hour or two to get comfortable in the drops descending fast - but I feel that was pretty key.

When you are down there, you have much more control over braking, and because your top half is down it's natural to slide your bum back too (which is a MTB thing, and i can't descend fast without it - it just feels wrong! The thinking here is it puts your centre of gravity further back which makes going over the bars much less likely)

So what I was thinking was that if you could borrow/hire/buy a mountain bike and give it a go on some rough stuff it might help you a lot. Firstly you obviously don't have to worry about cars, but also MTB descents are usually steeper, and rougher... so after that the road will seem simple (but MTBs do have much better brakes and wider tyres to balance it out!). I'm just thinking that if you try doing the same thing over and over nothing will change, so mix it up a bit and see if that helps???

daxplusplus

Peddle Up! wrote:

But, as the speed builds I reach a point where I feel the bike is “getting away from me” and when I apply the brakes, by tightening my grip the road vibration is transferred to my arms and the whole setup feels significantly less stable. So I tend to brake earlier than my “courage limit” allows to compensate.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what your describing here in terms of feel. My bike feels great at speed with no braking, however if I apply the brakes hardish, at speed, then sometimes it does feel less stable .. a kind of mini speed wobble. I just accept that is what it does.

But I don't experience this “getting away from me” with every descent (in fact hardly ever - otherwise I reckon I'd be doing something wrong). So maybe you are perhaps your actually travelling too fast?

I know that's the case for me.

Sometimes I'll get the fear and it's because I've let the speed creep up and rather than slow myself down with a hint of brakes in a timely fashion it's way too late for that and I have to apply a lot of braking force .. that's when I feel that the bike is "getting away from me". And so I brake hardish and get the mini speed wobble (it's not really a proper tankslapper but the bike definitely feels unstable).

So perhaps the key is thinking that your travelling too fast and braking too hard?

philwint

I had another thought today while hurtling down a hill.

When you brake how exactly are you braking?

If you just grab a big handful of brake I can see how it would de-stabilise you. I was trying to pay attention to what i was doing today - so this is what I do and not necessarily some universal "rule" of braking!!

As i decide i want to slow down on a descent I:

1. Very gently start to apply the rear brake, what I call "feathering" it. This takes a couple of mph off and seem to stabalise the whole thing.
2. I slowly apply the front break while simultaneously releasing the rear. The front is much more powerful than the rear, so needs a lot less force
3. But if i still need to slow more I go back to the rear applying more force this time
4. Then back to the front.

All of this is done sub-consciously and very quickly - the entire cycle above might only take 4-6 seconds.

I've probably got the physics all wrong and someone will hopefully come by to explain. But the way I conceptualise it is with me and my bike as a bit of sting. as long as there is tension we are nice and straight, but we crumple when put under pressure.

By sticking the rear brake on first it feels like it's stretching us all out as the front tries to get away, keeping us in a nice straight line. But if you hit the front brake first the "string crumples as me and the back are thrown forward. And as I'm holding the bars, that's why you get a wobble?

As I said, probably all wrong, but I was out for 4 hours on my own this afternoon and was mulling it over

stueys

Interesting. I tend to apply both brakes evenly but with more force on the front, I suspect the back is fairly minimal and just keeping things in check. One thing I do notice is the brakes start to bite once they warm so I tend to apply gently and then back off. I'm fairly useless at corners, struggle to find descents with hairpins to practice on.

roger_merriman

from years of MTBing I tend to use the brakes independently feeling the bite point and how much grip etc, and adjusting as needed.

On the whole with thin high pressure hard compound tyres, it's unwise to push too hard, brake before the corner not though it, pick your line though and be smooth.

in terms of improving well, practice makes perfect as you where.

but equally remember being a rubbish descender will cost you seconds even down long hills but a rubbish climber can loose minutes, local big hill to my folks going down fastest is 5 mins slowest is 10, going up fastest is 25 mins and slowest is 1hr with plenty in the 45min mark. lot of these will be sportives etc.

slowbike

Re brake usage - I tend to apply the back brake more when just trying to moderate speed. The front brake comes on when I really want to slow down.
With your weight back the back brake can have a reasonable effect in slowing you down - and you're not going AoverT if you apply too much.

As always when going fast - look further ahead and plan your descent. If you're on a busy road then consider taking the whole road - if you're doing 40+ then you're not slowing them up - especially if there is a 30 limit at the bottom!

djm501

TommyB61 wrote:

Some interesting thoughts on here & some useful tips too. Thanks to the hints on this forum & plenty of practice I'm gradually getting used to descending at pace, & starting to enjoy it a bit as well.

However, what really hold me back is what lurks at the bottom of descents. There's a great one near me - West Hythe Hill - which is great to hone descending skills on...except that there's a side road on the left at the bottom of it which cars pull out of, often without checking what's coming down the hill. Knowing that that might be waiting for me really scares me. How do you folks cope with something like that?

If it's genuinely dangerous, brake. No sense it getting killed for bravado.

I can descend very quickly - being a big heavy git is mostly helpful in this sense. I've managed 56 mph on a long straight descent when I could see for miles. But if there's hazards like tight blind bends, gravel, ice, water/oil then you are simply silly to fly around without due care and attention.

It should be number 1 in 'the rules' - make sure you're still alive when the ride ends.

kajjal

I did the same as above. Once you master mountain biking downhilling at speed it is alot easier on road. To be honest the big thing for me that affects speed is age. When I was in my twenties I would go down rocky steep drops at high speed without a care in the world. Now just in my forties I take it easier as I don't want to crash and really injury myself.

Don't let that put you off just my observation.

Peddle Up!

Some really good advice here - thanks. The MB tip is certainly something to look into.

I shall attack the downhills with renewed enthusiasm.

nferrar

Whilst there are a few key skills in descending a lot of it just comes down to balls/how much you're willing to risk. I'm quite a fast descender but I wouldn't say I'm particularly skilled at it, I'm just willing to scare myself a little more than most for the extra thrill. I have various scars to prove I sometimes go a little too far and at the end of the day you have to ask yourself is it worth it? I'd be slower if I was married with kids or self-employed...

Mikey23

I've noticed that when my brakes aren't centred, the wheels get pulled slightly to one side or the other when braking. Would this have the effect of causing speed wobble or instability at speed?

feemackenzie

After riding a motorbike for years remember:
- look ahead, if the apex of the corner is moving away it's a corner that opens out
- if the apex stays/gets closer, is a tight corner
- front brake early and release it
- if still going too quick, feather rear brake and KEEP LOOKING WHERE YOU WANT TO GO

As soon as you look at the front wheel, in my experience, a ditch is about to happen.

Tyres (especially in the dry) grip more than your mind lets them :-)

Oh and practice!