When do hard rides become counter productive?

Gav888

Hi,

I have been doing roughly 8-10 hours a week based on 4 hard rides a week (Tues, Wed, Fri, Sun) for the last couple of months based on SST and Threshold intervals of varying lengths and taking days off inbetween just to see how I would get on doing this much focused work and although I can tell my fitness is increasing I have found that on my rest days I am knackered a lot more than usual and im sleeping more, I used to feel fresh waking up before the alarm, now I am knackered and I struggle to get out of bed for my early ride lol... these are typical signs of too much hard stuff so I suspect if I carry on like this much longer they will become counter productive for me

So, it got me thinking, as I am doing too much (for me) how much is enough to see the desired gains without doing too much?

For example, a lot of people typically recommend 2x20 Z4 twice a week is plenty of threshold work a week then add on a spirited group ride at the weekend and easier rides inbetween, is this enough to get gains or is more threshold better? Is specific threshold training for 120min better? Is 140min then too much? Is doing 2x30 better than 2x20, or is 1x40 better than 1x60 etc... you get the idea.

I have read in the past that more isnt always better when it comes to these intensity levels and you dont need to be doing loads to get the desired gains???

By gains I mean increased FTP/average speeds etc, basically riding faster for longer

What do you guys think, how much time should be spent riding at SST, Z4, Z5 per week (regardless of the time of the year, just in general speak here) to get the benefits without doing too much to impact your training?

Cheers

ric/rstsport

sorry, i don't see, but what are your goals?

what's your CTL? TSB?

Gav888

Sorry should have added that, goals are simple really, I dont do racing etc but I would like to next year, but for this year its just group rides every weekend and I want to be able to keep up with the fast boys (which I cannot do at the moment), so really its to average 20mph over 60 miles which is what a lot of the guys can do solo (obviously more in a group).

At present I am more around 18mph average solo so a little way to go, hence all the SST/Z4 work.

CTL is currently at 80, TSB is -20, these are today and I last rode Sunday.

ric/rstsport

there's a variety of sessions you may need to do if you want to race. additionally, you may need to do more than 4 rides a week (of which some sessions should be easier).

But, if you'd like to race next year, i'd really suggest that you go and do a race this year. find out what your strengths and weaknesses are based on a race (not a training ride) and what you need to work on.

if you'd like some help with your coaching please do give me a shout

ric

Gav888

Cheers Ric appreciated, but I am looking to educate myself as I like to understand these things

Regarding the racing, I am interested in trying Time Trials, we have quite a big TT scene in the UK so I plan on doing some 10,25 and 50 TT's next year.

I did a 10 and a 25 this year to see how they are and I liked them, but slow lol hence all the SST/Z4 training I am now doing to boost my FTP, so hopefully come next year I am doing better.

Ive done the usual checks on forums regarding TT training plans and they all require a focus on raising your FTP (as to be expected with TTs) but only quote things like 2x20 at L4 twice a week or 1x40 SST twice a week padded out with easier rides, these to me just dont seem to be enough to raise your FTP.... or I am doing too much and I need to rain myself in a bit more?

ric/rstsport

Gav888 wrote:

Cheers Ric appreciated, but I am looking to educate myself as I like to understand these things

Regarding the racing, I am interested in trying Time Trials, we have quite a big TT scene in the UK so I plan on doing some 10,25 and 50 TT's next year.

I did a 10 and a 25 this year to see how they are and I liked them, but slow lol hence all the SST/Z4 training I am now doing to boost my FTP, so hopefully come next year I am doing better.

Ive done the usual checks on forums regarding TT training plans and they all require a focus on raising your FTP (as to be expected with TTs) but only quote things like 2x20 at L4 twice a week or 1x40 SST twice a week padded out with easier rides, these to me just dont seem to be enough to raise your FTP.... or I am doing too much and I need to rain myself in a bit more?

easiest way to educate yourself would, perhaps, be to get a plan and see a good way of how things are laid out.

i know we have quite a big TT scene in the UK. i've done a stack of TTs since 1984!

to improve your TTing you need to do training centred around TT power. you also need other stuff. exact mixes will depend on individual circumstance

maryka

What's your CTL ramp rate? Do you always do the same TSS every week? No weeks where you stretch yourself with more, or weeks when you do less (recovery/easy weeks)?

If you're doing basically the same week in and week out, eventually you will plateau. You sound as though you're probably not getting enough rest tbh. 4 hard rides a week every week (depending what else you're doing, but at only 8-10 hours a week I guess that means 6-8 hours is "hard"?) is quite a bit tbh.

If those rides themselves are also much the same every week I would think that would lead to mental boredom and physical stagnation. Hard to say as you don't give much info in your OP about what you're actually doing.

If you're trying to raise FTP, most people generally overload then recover. That's how training works. If you never do one nor the other then it's not really going to keep increasing your FTP after a point.

What's your 5 min peak power vs your FTP? If you always do Z3/4 work and never do any Z5 then you might have brought your FTP as high as it can go without raising your Z5 "ceiling".

Need more info to know for sure.

Gav888

Cheers Maryka,

Yeah your assumptions are right but to give you some details.

Winter was mainly turbo work, CTL low and roughly the same week in week out, weather is pants so didnt get out much.

Come Spring I started doing longer rides and backed off the intensity a bit, mainly Z3/Tempo type rides to boost my CTL, ramp rate was no more than 5 a week to roughly where it is now, 80.

I have been doing a focused 'block' I guess I would call it where I have been focusing on FTP raising with SST/Z4, my CTL has remained at 80 and I (incorrectly I guess) assumed that 3 days off the bike a week was plenty of recovery time....

My typically week looks like:

Tues - 60min SST
Wed - 120min Tempo/Z3 and pushing to Z4 on all hills
Fri - 60min SST then as per Wed for another 60min
Sun - Group ride usually 4hrs pushing the whole way, or hammering round the forest on my MTB

I (again possibly wrongly) assumed that as it isnt structured as such, ie, the Z4 bits are dependant on the route I take, flatter overall = less Z4 time for example, that I could get away with doing this until the winter comes along again?

Regarding 5min peak power, no idea to be honest, the only time I do Z5 is when pushing really hard on hills.

maryka

Sorry for the delayed reply, got pretty busy the last couple of days!

First off, from my own observation (n=1 and all that yada yada) high-quality turbo work is "worth" more stress than the TSS would show. So comparing weeks of indoor vs outdoor riding in TSS isn't quite perfect. But nonetheless, your fatigue and plateau started when you moved outdoors?

Do you ever do any harder efforts like 2x20 at a slightly higher intensity than your 60-min SST? Or what I call "FTP raisers" 4-10 min at high Z4/low Z5? SST is great (I do a lot of it myself) but always doing your SST intervals as 1x60 is a recipe for stagnation I think.

The 5-min test would be good to know. If your max 5 min watts is e.g., 85% of your FTP, then you'd probably do well with a block of Vo2max training to see if you can raise those 5 min watts, then go back to FTP building and see what happens.

Why not recovery rides or the odd easy rider rather than 3 days off a week completely? I think the "always pushing hard" mentality of every ride you do (relative to the duration) is very mentally wearying. Some easy rides are good for the mind and recovery rides are much better for many people than complete days off. And why not some longer endurance rides?

It could also be that your FTP as high as you're going to get it on the hours you're doing, unless you radically change your volume/structure. How many years have you been riding, what's your FTP improvement been over the months/years, do you take a lot of time off at the end of season and lose fitness, etc. etc. Where did you start and where are you now? Some people I know who track their training closely have equated their FTP with their CTL, as in the higher their CTL gets, the higher their FTP is. Might not be the case for everyone but might try it -- see if you can do a volume block to raise your FTP to 100 or so, recover from that and see what you get?

As an example, I'm at 4.8w/kg, was just below that when I raced in 2009/2010 and now back to it after having a baby in 2011, averaging 8-10 hours/week in winter and 12 hours in summer. But I'd probably need to ride full-time to raise mine much more I think (and lose some more weight) though I'm going to try and hit 5w/kg next season... those last 10 watts are elusive! Once you get to near your max fitness, improving by even a few percent is a lot harder.

I'm not a coach and I've never cared about or been concerned enough about my results to hire a coach, I've always been happier self-coached with a small circle of like-minded athlete friends to have for advice and opinion. But Ric is right about one thing -- if you want a better idea of what to do and you don't feel like you have the time or desire to experiment yourself with training structure to find out what works and what doesn't work for you, then get a coach for a while, or maybe pay someone for a one-off to go over your power files and give you some more ideas as to what's going on. But if you're happy learning it as you go and making the associated mistakes that go along with that (I've certainly made my share!) then by all means don't be afraid to mix up your training a bit more and try different approaches. One thing the human body is very good at is being lazy, so you need to keep throwing new challenges at it if you want it to get stronger. Doing the same thing for a long time just means your body gets to adapt to that then stop adapting. Change it up a bit and you might find yourself going up another step on the FTP ladder.