Chris King freehub damage

TheSmithers

Hi All

I recently purchased a set of hand built wheels with CK hubs about a month ago. Since then I've done around 420 miles on them. I'm worried I may have done some damage to the freehub body

Over the weekend, I removed my cassette to give the drive train a thorough degrease and clean. Upon removing the cassette locknut, it struck me as odd that it didn't require much force to remove, hardly any in fact! On removing the sprockets from the freehub body, I noticed some small deep gouges on the leading edge of some of the splines. The burr they created made removing the sprockets quite difficult. My cassette is the standard Shimano 105 that came with the bike.

Now, a couple of weeks earlier, I removed the cassette to adjust the rear hub bearing preload, per the CK running in guidelines. I remember the locknut being much harder to loosen, and the freehub body was fine then. Could it be I didn't tighten the cassette lock nut enough when I re-assembled everything, causing play in the sprockets? I don't have a torque wrench yet (all these tools are so bloody expensive!), but did it as tight as I could with the 12 inch extension bar I was using. Thing is, the locknut doesn't seem to tighten smoothly, more notchy like interlocking teeth. This makes it seem tighter than it actually is which was probably the mistake I made.

This time, I've done it much tighter and WILL be getting a torque wrench ASAP. The bike is going in to have the BB bearings replaced on Thursday (again haven't got the tools yet), so I'll get them to check the cassette. In the meantime though, have I done any lasting damage to my rear hub?

I should have got some pics with hindsight, but hopefully I've described it well enough.

Thanks for any advice.

drlodge

Sounds rather odd Smithers, do you mean that the freehub is burred where they make contact with the sprockets i.e. at the contact point? I would have thought the freehub material (presumably metal) would be hard enough to withstand the forces. Even if the locknut wasn't tight I doubt the sprockets could move around.

A photo would help...

drlodge

Are all the sprckets unsupported, or joined together? According to this thread its pretty normal..http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/chr ... 60720.html

Should have got those expensive Novatec Hubs not crappy CK :-S

TheSmithers

The largest 3 sprockets are connected and effectively 1 piece. The others are individual, separated by plastic spacers.

drlodge wrote:

Sounds rather odd Smithers, do you mean that the freehub is burred where they make contact with the sprockets i.e. at the contact point?

You are correct. I've looked up some other threads on the web, and yes I'm not the only one to have this problem. The freehub body is a soft alloy and prone to this.

drlodge

TheSmithers wrote:

The freehub body is a soft alloy and prone to this.

And you got the CK hubs because...they are "high quality" and will last ages? :? :shock: I know Harry Rowland doesn't rate CK hubs, may be this is why. There is mention on that link of getting XT or SRAM cassettes but without knowing how extensive the damage is, its hard to tell whether you can just file the burs down or more drastic action is needed.

TheSmithers

Like I say, This has happened in the last couple of weeks! :? It was fine when I removed everything the first time. I've also noticed that, since then, the gear change has been awful, particularly when on the large chain ring and changing into higher gears. It tends to get caught in between the current gear and the one I want to change into, making a racket in the process, and then eventually going in seconds later. Changing into lower gears has been fine. This could be simple adjustment of the rear mech required, but I can't help think it's related. Since tightening the lock nut tighter over the weekend, gear changing was much better during my 50 mile club ride.

TheSmithers

drlodge wrote:

TheSmithers wrote:

The freehub body is a soft alloy and prone to this.

And you got the CK hubs because...they are "high quality" and will last ages? :? :shock: I know Harry Rowland doesn't rate CK hubs, may be this is why. There is mention on that link of getting XT or SRAM cassettes but without knowing how extensive the damage is, its hard to tell whether you can just file the burs down or more drastic action is needed.

Fortunately, the damage isn't extensive. In the main, the freehub outer body is still as new. The gouges and burring are limited to only 2 or 3 of the splines.

I don't regret buying CK hubs at all. It's a unanimous opinion they are high quality, and very serviceable. I think it's a case of user error on my part here.

drlodge

Sounds like a combination of user error (locknut too loose) and design flaw (use of soft metal), hopefully you can erase the burs with a file and secure the sprockets adequately with the locknut. I do my locknuts up pretty tight with a 12" adjustable spanner, no torque wrench needed with my gorilla hands

nicklouse

just put it all back together and use it.

it is not a big issue. But using a cassette with as many cogs on a carrier the better, the 3 smallest are often free to move anyway.

jermas

The notching (caused by the cassette) is common on alloy freehubs. I haven't got CK hubs, but all my alloy freehubs developed notches early on, then they don't really get any bigger. I've got one I'm using with 20,000 miles on it, and it's fine.

TheSmithers

Thanks for the replies.

For a hub maker with such a reputation for quality and engineering, I just don't buy into the idea that this is normal. Either I have a faulty unit, or it's a design flaw as drlodge suggested, but more likely I'd say my own error.

I've sent an email to both Wheelsmith, where I bought the wheels, and to Chris King info. Let's see what comes back. In the meantime, it's not detracting in the slightest from my enjoyment of both the wheels and hubs out on the bike!

ugo.santalucia

It is quite common on soft alloy free hubs with Shimano splines... Novatec are prone to this... one would hope CK were a bit better, gut hey ho... I'd say it's not your fault and if in doubt, get a new freehub under warranty... these are very expensive hubs with a 5 years warranty, therefore the freehub is not to be treated as a "consumable" as it is for basic hubs...
400 miles is a bit too little for the splines to be already damaged though... :?

nicklouse

TheSmithers wrote:

For a hub maker with such a reputation for quality and engineering, I just don't buy into the idea that this is normal.

belive it. it is totally normal

alloy freehub bodies get cut into. fact. Ti freehub bodies get marked. Steel ones dont.

do you want me to post up a whole pile of pictures?

can do.

it is one reasom that shimano brought out the 10spd only set up that had deeper splines. but then it was ah does it matter all the aftermarket hubs are coming with alloy freebodies we may as will shelve it and just use the normal patten.

racingcondor

Yup. Normal I'm afraid (happened to mine too, not badly but it's there).

CK like most use alloy freehub bodies as they're a lot lighter than steel and the cycling world is obsessed with that last 10g. Your best bet is to do what I did for your next wheels. DA hubs are still made of sterner stuff (Ti freehub body, may mark but hadn't last time I looked).

TheSmithers

In scouring the internet on this, I've already seen plenty of images of shredded CK freehubs. They were all on MTB, which I could kind of understand given the higher stress they must be under. But a road bike after 400 miles use?!

TheSmithers

racingcondor wrote:

Yup. Normal I'm afraid (happened to mine too, not badly but it's there).

CK like most use alloy freehub bodies as they're a lot lighter than steel and the cycling world is obsessed with that last 10g. Your best bet is to do what I did for your next wheels. DA hubs are still made of sterner stuff (Ti freehub body, may mark but hadn't last time I looked).

I don't think I'll be getting DA hubs

desweller

If you leave the locknut loose enough then the sprocket can saw its way through the splines eventually. I've done it (took several thousand miles though). Fortunately I was able to buy a new freehub body with a steel spline (Novatec hub), but I haven't tried it yet; I became too heavy for the wheels :oops:

nicklouse

DesWeller wrote:

If you leave the locknut loose enough then the sprocket can saw its way through the splines eventually. I've done it (took several thousand miles though). Fortunately I was able to buy a new freehub body with a steel spline (Novatec hub), but I haven't tried it yet; I became too heavy for the wheels :oops:

having the lock nut tight or loose has very little bearing on it.

seen it go through an alloy body and the lock ring was on as tight as.

schweiz

The freehub body on my powertap hub is exactly the same. Sometimes I have to use a flat bladed screwdriver to get some of the sprockets off and then use emery cloth to remove the burrs so that I can get them back on again.

nferrar

Yeah I hate the use of soft alloy on freehub bodies, it's just a retard place to save weight. At least Hope have an option for steel inserts but ffs I wish all alloy bodies were reserved for specialist climbing wheels. As has been said, a loose lockring won't have contributed much if anything to the damage, it's just the crap use of lightweight material were it shouldn't be (and CK hubs are heavy as it is so no doubt they have to save grams wherever they can to not look quite as bad in comparison to much cheaper hubs).
I file the burrs off mine when replacing cassettes, makes it easier to install the next one and hopefully remove it later. Cassettes with as few loose sprockets as possible help to.
Oh and don't bother with a torque wrench, certainly not for tightening cassette lockrings up, just need to do it 'bastard tight' and yeah it can feel notchy when you tighten it, that's normal

racingcondor

TheSmithers wrote:

I don't think I'll be getting DA hubs

Fair enough, they're kind of heavy and old school compared to Extralites and the like.

I'm fast becoming of the opinion that some companies make light things and some make things that work. Shimano falls into the later and the result is that Dura Ace hubs really are very good (maintenance - easy, durability - excellent, geometry - better than everything I've seen except Chris King and Alchemy). The more I ride the more I start to sound like Ugo...

TheSmithers

Cheers all!

I had a reply from Derek at Wheelsmith, who referred me to the FAQ section:

Wheelsmith FAQs wrote:

39. My Shimano cassette has created grooves in the freehub body. Is this normal?

It is with some light alloy freehub bodies - they have to accommodate 9&10sp Shimano and SRAM, and 10sp Shimano was designed for deeper splines. You can file down the burrs and refit cassette or contact us for replacement body. SRAM cassettes generally do not dig in like this.

Ok, so I'm a little less worried about the whole thing. BUT for what I paid for those CK hubs, which in all other respects are top notch, I would have expected better, especially after such little use. Haven't had a reply from CK yet, so let's see what they come back with.

ugo.santalucia

racingcondor wrote:

The more I ride the more I start to sound like Ugo...

Nobody has come up with a clever way to shed weight from the hub without compromising its function. A rear hub does a pretty heavy job... there is load, there is rotation, there is crap getting in, there is a freehub mechanism that needs to work faultlessly, there are four bearings... it's really the last place you want to look to scrimp on 50 grams.
At Shimano they're no fools and if they can't make these things light, it's because you can't make them light and durable, otherwise they would.

nicklouse

TheSmithers wrote:

Haven't had a reply from CK yet, so let's see what they come back with.

it will be it is normal.

TheSmithers

Just to complete this thread, below is the response from Chris King:

Chris King wrote:

Thanks for the email. Yes, this is something that can happen due to the cassette being steel and the aluminum driveshell being a soft metal. Make sure you're tightening the lockring to the spec torque because if this is a little loose it can make the gauging worse. If you have a straight edge file you can remove the burs that will allow you to install and remove the cassette a little easier.

The other issues is that 105 is 10-speed and our driveshells are 11-speed. Our hubs come with a spacer for that, but when using Shimano you have to use their spacer too (they have some weird proprietary spacer) so if you're not using both spacers you will need to install both of them.

If it continues to get worse let us know, we'll do whatever we can to help solve the issue.

The only spacer I'm using is the one that came with my hubs if using a 10 spd cassette. This proprietary spacer he speaks of I don't have. In any case, when all the sprockets are on the freehub, including the CK supplied spacer, it's a snug fit. If any more spacers were to be added, you wouldn't be able to get the lock nut on.

keef66

You may have the Shimano 10 speed spacer stuck to the back of the cassette where it sits in a small recess

TheSmithers

keef66 wrote:

You may have the Shimano 10 speed spacer stuck to the back of the cassette where it sits in a small recess

Really? While it's not being used you mean? :?

keef66

First couple of times I took off my cassette I didn't realise there was a spacer because it remained stuck in the groove on the back of the largest sprocket. I was wondering if you'd done the same and in fact do have 2 spacers installed, that's all.

TheSmithers

I'll have a look. Thanks for that info!

andyrr

The way tht the lockring tightened up is normal, it isn't just a smooth progressive tightening it's kind of like a soft ratchet sound feel and no need to do it up stupid tight, no idea of the torque but I just make it very tight but I don't start pushing with all my weight on the wrench.

robbo2011

If you are really worried about the freehub damage, get a SRAM Red cassette. all of the cogs are on a single carrier and the freehub with not be damaged at all. And it's lighter than your current cassette