Erik Zabel - Resigns from the pro cycling council.

dougzz

LeicesterLad wrote:

So if Millars flat had never been raided he would have come clean anyway, written a book, made a million and become the face of anti-doping.

For what it's worth I get the sense he is actually sorry he did it, which is clearly more than some of these characters who are typically sorry they got caught. It is important to keep a sense of proportion, but Zabel is a serial liar and someone I find it hard to care about losing his job.

cal_stewart

I'm with LL on Millar to a point. No doubt he was on his arse and worked his butt off the get back but the Jesus act breaks me.

LeicesterLad

dougzz wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

So if Millars flat had never been raided he would have come clean anyway, written a book, made a million and become the face of anti-doping.

For what it's worth I get the sense he is actually sorry he did it, which is clearly more than some of these characters who are typically sorry they got caught. It is important to keep a sense of proportion, but Zabel is a serial liar and someone I find it hard to care about losing his job.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, he is genuinely remorseful but only post the event, having been caught. Couldn't see him fessing up off his own back. I don't mind Millar to an extent, he would only have done what everybody else would have in his situation, likewise he probably would have kept quiet like many others if he hadn't been raided.

deejay

Cal_Stewart wrote:

I'm with LL on Millar to a point. No doubt he was on his ars* and worked his butt off the get back but the Jesus act breaks me.

Never bothered me and just lost interest with his Crocodile Tears.

deejay

Galatzo wrote:

Is anyone actually surprised by this ?
Six green jerseys (and two 2nds and four 3rds) in that era had bells ringing so loud with me that I thought Quasi Modo was ringing them

1997 San Remo did it for me and then he was just regarded as rubbish.
In fact the whole Telekom team then became trash, where before it was just Bjarne Riis.
I often wondered how Sean Kelly felt (then and now) when Zabel was brought to the commentary box after 6 green jersey's.
Yes we know about the alleged drugs before the "Super Juice EPO"

RichN95.

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

Richmond Racer

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

^'Tis a fair point

deejay

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

Those insignificant social networks seem to get people into the Law Courts.
We have just got through a period where the Texan had so much leverage in these matters.
I'm easy enough to track down if need be.

LeicesterLad

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

My Name is Bob Monkhorse, I'm in my twenties and from Wigston in Leicestershire.

I agree with some of what you say Rich - but I don't expect anyone to come clean, history shows they rarely do and probably rarely will. BUT he had the best opportunity of his life to tell the truth and help the sport in 2007, he turned it down and carried on lying. He accepted the EPO claim in 2007 which was enough to tarnish him and his career, so why not just admit to the lot?

above_the_cows

I confess to cheating in numerous weekly French and German vocab tests at school, because well I could.

Please don't ruin my career. I like my job.

RichN95.

LeicesterLad wrote:

I agree with some of what you say Rich - but I don't expect anyone to come clean, history shows they rarely do and probably rarely will. BUT he had the best opportunity of his life to tell the truth and help the sport in 2007, he turned it down and carried on lying. He accepted the EPO claim in 2007 which was enough to tarnish him and his career, so why not just admit to the lot?

Because in 2007, everything from 1999 onwards was still inside the statue of limitations and he would have been banned. There was no incentive for him to say any more than had already been revealed.

LeicesterLad

RichN95 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

I agree with some of what you say Rich - but I don't expect anyone to come clean, history shows they rarely do and probably rarely will. BUT he had the best opportunity of his life to tell the truth and help the sport in 2007, he turned it down and carried on lying. He accepted the EPO claim in 2007 which was enough to tarnish him and his career, so why not just admit to the lot?

Because in 2007, everything from 1999 onwards was still inside the statue of limitations and he would have been banned. There was no incentive for him to say any more than had already been revealed.

Which makes him the sneaky turd I'm saying he is then? He knew exactly what he was doing, trying to save his own a*se whilst blubbing about how sorry he was.

slowbike

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

I don't make money or compete on these forums - nobody on here will know me from Adam so my real name is irrelevant. I dont (well try not to) say anything that could adversely affect me in my real life too - whether I can be identified or not.

Cheating in competition is cheating whether you're paid or not - I don't expect anyone to voluntarily admit to cheating out of the blue - but with cycling there has been a steady flow of admissions of guilt - so if guilty they should confess and/or remove themselves from the sport. But then, if they've been prepared to cheat then it is unsurprising that they won't readily confess.

TheBigBean

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

I don't expect riders to voluntarily admit to doping, but I'm not going to complain if they finally receive some sanction for having been caught. In my ideal world all samples would be retested inside the 8 year WADA limitation and punishments dished out accordingly. This would discourage the current crop from doping. The whole let's brush it under the carpet as things are different now only serves to encourage doping today.

That's my opinion. My name is an irrelevance. Whether I'm big, blue and round or tall, dark and skinny has no affect on the merits of my opinion.

LeicesterLad

TheBigBean wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

I don't expect riders to voluntarily admit to doping, but I'm not going to complain if they finally receive some sanction for having been caught. In my ideal world all samples would be retested inside the 8 year WADA limitation and punishments dished out accordingly. This would discourage the current crop from doping. The whole let's brush it under the carpet as things are different now only serves to encourage doping today.

That's my opinion. My name is an irrelevance. Whether I'm big, blue and round or tall, dark and skinny has no affect on the merits of my opinion.

And anyway, Riders that admit guilt should have serious reprecussions for their future. If they don't want that, don't do it in the first place. Otherwise whats the f*cking point. If I rob a bank and plead guilty, it doesn't mean I should get away with it?

RichN95.

TheBigBean wrote:

I don't expect riders to voluntarily admit to doping, but I'm not going to complain if they finally receive some sanction for having been caught. In my ideal world all samples would be retested inside the 8 year WADA limitation and punishments dished out accordingly. This would discourage the current crop from doping. The whole let's brush it under the carpet as things are different now only serves to encourage doping today.

I agree generally. But in my opinion once the WADA limitation is up then that era should be consigned to history - these constant archeology expeditions do nothing to help anyone. People should be judged on what they are now, not what they were then. Hounding riders for something they did 15 years ago serves only to lose some good people from the sport.

RichN95.

LeicesterLad wrote:

And anyway, Riders that admit guilt should have serious reprecussions for their future. If they don't want that, don't do it in the first place. Otherwise whats the f*cking point. If I rob a bank and plead guilty, it doesn't mean I should get away with it?

But not everyone robs banks, do they? More or less everyone doped in the 90s.

You said earlier that you are in you twenties - so in 1998 you were, at most, 14 - more likely 10. You will have know little of cycling at that time. You are viewing 1998 through the lens of 2013 standards. Everyone was doping. Scapegoating individuals 15 years later is the act of either a zealot or a moron.

ddraver

LeicesterLad wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I do find it amusing that some people expect riders to voluntarily admit to all wrong doing in their career which may have serious reprecussions for their future, yet these same posters can't even bring themselves to use their real name on a insignificant internet forum.

My Name is Gavin Gamble, I'm in my twenties and from Wigston in Leicestershire.

My name is Erik from Germany

You cut me deep Gav, you cut me reeeel deep just now

LeicesterLad

RichN95 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

And anyway, Riders that admit guilt should have serious reprecussions for their future. If they don't want that, don't do it in the first place. Otherwise whats the f*cking point. If I rob a bank and plead guilty, it doesn't mean I should get away with it?

But not everyone robs banks, do they? More or less everyone doped in the 90s.

You said earlier that you are in you twenties - so in 1998 you were, at most, 14 - more likely 10. You will have know little of cycling at that time. You are viewing 1998 through the lens of 2013 standards. Everyone was doping. Scapegoating individuals 15 years later is the act of either a zealot or a moron.

I don't see it as scapegoating - do something wrong, pay the price. Thats life, and that's how it should be.

So weyhey, it might have been years ago or whatever. But the things coming to light from years ago have a direct impact on the sport today: On the new, young riders who have to answer the questions, the cost to sponsors, race organisors of having a tarnished sport, the disillusionment of fans...it all add's up. Nothing wrong with holding people responsible for that.

Anyway Like I said, not so much about the doping with Zabel, more the fact he put on a big show of crying and apologising whilst behind the tears he was probably laughing thinking 'hell yeah, they think I got roped in to using EPO once, they will take pity, suckers don't know i've been pumping blood bags for 6 years hahahahahahaha'. Cowardly and pathetic in my book. Glad he's been found out and that's that. It's people with that attitude that make a mockery of the sport - not so much just the people doping.

salsiccia1

RichN95 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

And anyway, Riders that admit guilt should have serious reprecussions for their future. If they don't want that, don't do it in the first place. Otherwise whats the f*cking point. If I rob a bank and plead guilty, it doesn't mean I should get away with it?

But not everyone robs banks, do they? More or less everyone doped in the 90s.

You said earlier that you are in you twenties - so in 1998 you were, at most, 14 - more likely 10. You will have know little of cycling at that time. You are viewing 1998 through the lens of 2013 standards. Everyone was doping. Scapegoating individuals 15 years later is the act of either a zealot or a moron.

I haven't read through all this thread, but I'm broadly in agreement with Rich here. To me, there comes a point where we say 'OK this was what was happening then, and we're working to make sure nothing like it happens again.' There has to be a point when it's not about retribution but learning.

Anyway, it's not like it's a surprise when anyone from the early 90s up to the mid 2000s admits having doped. It's safe to assume that virtually everybody was.

oneof1982

LeicesterLad wrote:

My Name is Gavin Gamble, I'm in my twenties and from Wigston in Leicestershire.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

And I thought you were the guy who lived round the corner off Queens Road.

I thought the nick name thing was just part of the fun. if anyone says anything really naughty, then that Rick Chasey fellow will dob them in surely (?)

oneof1982

Above The Cows wrote:

I confess to cheating in numerous weekly French and German vocab tests at school, because well I could.

Please don't ruin my career. I like my job.

How did taking PEDs help with French and German vocabulary?

RichN95.

oneof1982 wrote:

I thought the nick name thing was just part of the fun. if anyone says anything really naughty, then that Rick Chasey fellow will dob them in surely (?)

But where will the nickname thing stop? It's already creeping into the peloton. Steele Van Hoff, for example. That's not a real name - he's really called Graham Wilkins.

TheBigBean

oneof1982 wrote:

I thought the nick name thing was just part of the fun. if anyone says anything really naughty, then that Rick Chasey fellow will dob them in surely (?)

Personally I think that keeping your real name off the internet is very important. You don't want prospective employers and the like finding out anything you haven't told them yourself, and they all look.

dougzz

deejay wrote:

1997 San Remo did it for me and then he was just regarded as rubbish.
In fact the whole Telekom team then became trash, where before it was just Bjarne Riis.
I often wondered how Sean Kelly felt (then and now) when Zabel was brought to the commentary box after 6 green jersey's.
Yes we know about the alleged drugs before the "Super Juice EPO"

Doping is doping. You can't seriously suggest that doping in one era is different. Each era uses what was available. I understand EPO changed things and rewarded responders, whereas stimulants probably rewarded equally, but it's somewhat limited to pretend one sort of doping is all good old boy laughs, and another sort is evil and must be hounded out even 20 years later. So much of this is based on wanting to like a particular character, Merckx or Sean Kelly, but vilify a certain Texan, it's all doping. What I hate about all this varying application of standards is it's making me defend something I thought indefensible.

above_the_cows

oneof1982 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

I confess to cheating in numerous weekly French and German vocab tests at school, because well I could.

Please don't ruin my career. I like my job.

How did taking PEDs help with French and German vocabulary?

Actually I just hid a piece of paper with the vocab on it under the test piece of paper. You jest, but the taking of performance enhancers in academia is an issue. Students who take goodness only knows what during exams to help concentration, academics taking beta blockers during presentations etc. etc. Beta blockers are also used by concert musicians apparently, especially during auditions.

RichN95 wrote:

Steele Van Hoff, for example. That's not a real name - he's really called Graham Wilkins.

'Tis true. He's my cousin. He's not Australian though. He's like Russell Crow and is really from Auckland.

LeicesterLad

oneof1982 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

My Name is Gavin Gamble, I'm in my twenties and from Wigston in Leicestershire.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

And I thought you were the guy who lived round the corner off Queens Road.

I thought the nick name thing was just part of the fun. if anyone says anything really naughty, then that Rick Chasey fellow will dob them in surely (?)

I can often be spotted around Queens Road, nice little area.

oneof1982

TheBigBean wrote:

oneof1982 wrote:

I thought the nick name thing was just part of the fun. if anyone says anything really naughty, then that Rick Chasey fellow will dob them in surely (?)

Personally I think that keeping your real name off the internet is very important. You don't want prospective employers and the like finding out anything you haven't told them yourself, and they all look.

To be honest, I've alwys worked on the basis that it is all traceable, and attributable. I wouldn't say anything on here that I wouldn't put my name to.

But try telling my kids that! :roll:

TheBigBean

Above The Cows wrote:

Beta blockers are also used by concert musicians apparently, especially during auditions.

and golfers.

LeicesterLad

TheBigBean wrote:

oneof1982 wrote:

I thought the nick name thing was just part of the fun. if anyone says anything really naughty, then that Rick Chasey fellow will dob them in surely (?)

Personally I think that keeping your real name off the internet is very important. You don't want prospective employers and the like finding out anything you haven't told them yourself, and they all look.

You mean they are going to see what I write? GREAT

I love my job, the people I work with are the finest I know, they work hard and never slack, everything they say and do is perfect and I love them like I love my family. Especially Emma in listings. She has nice norks.