Contador under fire from Tinkov boss.

13

Comments

  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    ddraver wrote:

    I think it would be fair to say he did nt have the stiffest of competition. The guy in second FFS!! They guy in 7th!!!!!

    Sure - Ok, so in 2010 TdF, did he look like 2009 Bert?

    But he looked more like that in the Giro the following year.

    He was bust in 2010, so why would you continue to dope in 2011, then quit in 2013?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    So, excluding the Giro in 2011, Contador has been at a consistent and constant level between 2010 and 2013 (I sometimes even wonder about 2009), so maybe some other riders have simply improved.
  • oneof1982
    oneof1982 Posts: 703
    iainf72 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:

    I think it would be fair to say he did nt have the stiffest of competition. The guy in second FFS!! They guy in 7th!!!!!

    Sure - Ok, so in 2010 TdF, did he look like 2009 Bert?

    But he looked more like that in the Giro the following year.

    He was bust in 2010, so why would you continue to dope in 2011, then quit in 2013?

    Contador never believed that he had been caught. He still doesn't. It is plausible that he carried on doing what he had had always done as long as he thought he could get away with it. His performance this time round may be evidence that the game really is changing. Perhaps he no longer thinks he can get away with it so he is riding clean - at last.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    oneof1982 wrote:
    Contador never believed that he had been caught. He still doesn't. It is plausible that he carried on doing what he had had always done as long as he thought he could get away with it. His performance this time round may be evidence that the game really is changing. Perhaps he no longer thinks he can get away with it so he is riding clean - at last.

    But he was still equally quick / slow (in absolute times) up Alpe d'Huez this year, so the previous drugs must have been ineffective.
  • oneof1982
    oneof1982 Posts: 703
    TheBigBean wrote:
    But he was still equally quick / slow (in absolute times) up Alpe d'Huez this year, so the previous drugs must have been ineffective.

    "..equally quick / slow" - in comparison to what?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    oneof1982 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    But he was still equally quick / slow (in absolute times) up Alpe d'Huez this year, so the previous drugs must have been ineffective.

    "..equally quick / slow" - in comparison to what?

    His Alpe d'Huez times from 2010, 2011 and 2013 are very similar. Different race conditions and all that, but nonetheless the same speed.
  • lloyd_bower
    lloyd_bower Posts: 664
    ademort wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    ademort wrote:
    He also says that Roberto is not value for money. His performance does not match the salary he is on and Contador is too rich and not hungry enough and says he needs to work harder.

    well he is signing the checks!

    this guy is starting to come across as a bit of a character.

    It,s not the first time Oleg,s put his foot in it, do you remember this
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/geschke ... am-licence

    Super link, brave comments there from Marcel Kittel. Obviously the 'old school heavyweight' isn't that popular with all the peloton after all.
  • lloyd_bower
    lloyd_bower Posts: 664
    oneof1982 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:

    I think it would be fair to say he did nt have the stiffest of competition. The guy in second FFS!! They guy in 7th!!!!!

    Sure - Ok, so in 2010 TdF, did he look like 2009 Bert?

    But he looked more like that in the Giro the following year.

    He was bust in 2010, so why would you continue to dope in 2011, then quit in 2013?

    Contador never believed that he had been caught. He still doesn't. It is plausible that he carried on doing what he had had always done as long as he thought he could get away with it. His performance this time round may be evidence that the game really is changing. Perhaps he no longer thinks he can get away with it so he is riding clean - at last.

    Yeah, no doubt some truth in that about the '7 time GT winner'.

    Re: other comments can't compare Alpe d'Huez are other climbs across years, simply too many variables.
  • oneof1982
    oneof1982 Posts: 703
    TheBigBean wrote:
    oneof1982 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    But he was still equally quick / slow (in absolute times) up Alpe d'Huez this year, so the previous drugs must have been ineffective.

    "..equally quick / slow" - in comparison to what?

    His Alpe d'Huez times from 2010, 2011 and 2013 are very similar. Different race conditions and all that, but nonetheless the same speed.


    Did he go up the Alpe on is own in 2010?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    oneof1982 wrote:
    Did he go up the Alpe on is own in 2010?

    No, mostly in the company of Brajkovic.
  • oneof1982
    oneof1982 Posts: 703
    TheBigBean wrote:
    oneof1982 wrote:
    Did he go up the Alpe on is own in 2010?

    No, mostly in the company of Brajkovic.


    Sorry, I was being mischevious. The TdF did not go up the Alpe in 2010.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    oneof1982 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    oneof1982 wrote:
    Did he go up the Alpe on is own in 2010?

    No, mostly in the company of Brajkovic.


    Sorry, I was being mischevious. The TdF did not go up the Alpe in 2010.

    Indeed, but the Dauphine did. Contador was slightly (30s or so) slower then, but still quicker than everyone, but Brajkovic.
  • oneof1982
    oneof1982 Posts: 703
    TheBigBean wrote:

    Indeed, but the Dauphine did. Contador was slightly (30s or so) slower then, but still quicker than everyone, but Brajkovic.


    So we are now comparing times in different races, never mind different weather conditions, crowd engagement etc.etc. All getting a bit stretched. The point remains that Contador doped. He is less comptetitve now, which to the humble likes of myself, suggests he may not be doping. If he is to compete in future, he needs to find a way of filling the gap.
  • Setarkos
    Setarkos Posts: 239
    Making a debatable assumption - 'Most riders incl. Froome/Sky are now clean' - the following can be said:

    Riders who have been doping in the past have to change their training and preparation.
    Bernhard Kohl's reconstructed doping plan from 2008 gives a few indications. Eg. Insulin was used to boost the glycogen deposits so it was not so much an issue. Without that you have to take greater care to nutrition, sparing your glycogen levels and training your lipometabolism close to threshold power.
    As to what extent EPO and blood doping might have favoured a different kind of rider and now maybe muscle mass is more of an issue, I can only speculate. But it is conceivable that it makes a difference.
    The list goes on - here is Kohl's doping plan (it's in German but not difficult to decipher): http://images.zeit.de/static/projekte/l ... l-2008.pdf
    Schilddrüsenhormone = thyroid hormones
    Wachstumshormone = growth hormones
    Öl = Oil = Blood

    Riders who have heavily relied on doping in the past and their coaches/doctors simply don't have a clue how to train ideally without it.
    Blog ---- Excel Training Planner
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    iainf72 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    I think it would be fair to say he did nt have the stiffest of competition. The guy in second FFS!! They guy in 7th!!!!!
    Sure - Ok, so in 2010 TdF, did he look like 2009 Bert?
    But he looked more like that in the Giro the following year.
    He was bust in 2010, so why would you continue to dope in 2011, then quit in 2013?
    Maybe in a few years they'll be a book and we'll all get to find out, or at least some more info. I'd offer the opinion that form is a factor too, a gradual reduction in the levels of doping because of the potential to be caught increasing with the more sophisticated testing equipment that caught him in the first place, and the old chesnut of no studies towards the long term effects of EPO, maybe the fall off in effect is more gradual and over a longer period. It's all just speculation though isn't it, interesting just the same.
  • adamfo
    adamfo Posts: 763
    Vino'sGhost wrote:

    what utter utter fanboi bol ocks :roll:

    I can further conclude you played truant from your 'bog standard' comprehensive :shock: (copyright David Cameron)
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    iainf72 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:

    I think it would be fair to say he did nt have the stiffest of competition. The guy in second FFS!! They guy in 7th!!!!!

    Sure - Ok, so in 2010 TdF, did he look like 2009 Bert?

    But he looked more like that in the Giro the following year.

    He was bust in 2010, so why would you continue to dope in 2011, then quit in 2013?

    I'd say 2013 Bert looked like 2009 or 2011 Bert, he just wasnt going as fast as everyone else in 2013. 2011 he was faster than a load of people who wouldnt usually be faster than him anyway but in 2009 he was faster than anyone else in the world including people that we no know were doping
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Setarkos
    Setarkos Posts: 239
    ddraver wrote:
    I'd say 2013 Bert looked like 2009 or 2011 Bert, he just wasnt going as fast as everyone else in 2013. 2011 he was faster than a load of people who wouldnt usually be faster than him anyway but in 2009 he was faster than anyone else in the world including people that we no know were doping

    2009 he went up Verbier setting the highes VAM ever recorded. No comparison to this year.
    Blog ---- Excel Training Planner
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Di Luca tooled up this year.

    Di Luca also tooled up a few years back.

    They looked like different people. Doping doesn't always = same results.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    Setarkos wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    I'd say 2013 Bert looked like 2009 or 2011 Bert, he just wasnt going as fast as everyone else in 2013. 2011 he was faster than a load of people who wouldnt usually be faster than him anyway but in 2009 he was faster than anyone else in the world including people that we no know were doping

    2009 he went up Verbier setting the highes VAM ever recorded. No comparison to this year.

    What did that look like on the telly though? If he'd had the second and third places with him it would have looked much like any other bike race
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Setarkos
    Setarkos Posts: 239
    ddraver wrote:
    What did that look like on the telly though? If he'd had the second and third places with him it would have looked much like any other bike race

    So by how it looks on the telly, you think you can judge that more accurately than by comparing climb times, VAMs, wattage etc.???
    With that performance he would likely have dropped Froome this year on every climb and comparing his 2010 Ax-3-Domaines he would've matched Froome this year.
    Blog ---- Excel Training Planner
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    Verbier is very short though. I do think comparing climbing times on the same climb can be interesting, but comparing a short steep climb to a long drag is not very meaningful. For example, I have a very high VAM on speedbumps and I'm not doping.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Verbier is very short though. I do think comparing climbing times on the same climb can be interesting, but comparing a short steep climb to a long drag is not very meaningful. For example, I have a very high VAM on speedbumps and I'm not doping.


    Denials, denials...must there always be denials??? Come on, not even an addiction to Percy Pigs?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Verbier is very short though. I do think comparing climbing times on the same climb can be interesting, but comparing a short steep climb to a long drag is not very meaningful. For example, I have a very high VAM on speedbumps and I'm not doping.


    Denials, denials...must there always be denials??? Come on, not even an addiction to Percy Pigs?

    No denial at all. He may have been juiced to the eyeballs and there probably is much evidence to support that hypothesis - VAM on a short climb compared to a long climb is not it.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Verbier is very short though. I do think comparing climbing times on the same climb can be interesting, but comparing a short steep climb to a long drag is not very meaningful. For example, I have a very high VAM on speedbumps and I'm not doping.[/quote]


    Denials, denials...must there always be denials??? Come on, not even an addiction to Percy Pigs?

    No denial at all. He may have been juiced to the eyeballs and there probably is much evidence to support that hypothesis - VAM on a short climb compared to a long climb is not it.


    No, BB, I meant your personal doping denial... :wink:
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,910
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    No, BB, I meant your personal doping denial... :wink:

    Ah yes, sorry, I musinderstood. I'd be interested to know which would be more effective a Bjarne Riis 60% or losing the 4 stone of excess that I carry around....
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    Setarkos wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    What did that look like on the telly though? If he'd had the second and third places with him it would have looked much like any other bike race

    So by how it looks on the telly, you think you can judge that more accurately than by comparing climb times, VAMs, wattage etc.???
    With that performance he would likely have dropped Froome this year on every climb and comparing his 2010 Ax-3-Domaines he would've matched Froome this year.

    Jaysus....

    Iain is asking specifically how Bertie looks different this year to 2013 - the point is that actually he doesnt! He looks exactly the same just slow enough that others can keep up and a few people can drop him.

    Part of the reason he "looked so strong" post ban in 2011 is that he had very little real competition so of course he looked better! (he also had nothing to lose when riding that race so why not go for it), later that year Cuddles and Schleckette made him look human again

    However Pre ban he was better than everyone else in the world...ever...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... terms.html Perhaps this is why they had to pull the sponsorship :D
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    dougzz wrote:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html Perhaps this is why they had to pull the sponsorship :D
    Mr Argarkov deserves the Nobel Prize for Economics
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    Looks like Tinkov will soon have a few extra quid to invest

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-0 ... n-ipo.html

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