Contador under fire from Tinkov boss.

Tom Butcher

OK I can understand people not liking Riis and not liking Contador because of the doping issue but let's be fair.

Saxo did not mess up the bike change in the last TT - as I remember it Froome was coming into the last time check well ahead before he stopped to change bikes, and then finished well ahead - the bike change / no bike change issue made very little difference to the result - it may have gained or lost Froome a handful of seconds but we don't know.

Whether Froome looked shaky on the descents or not at least Saxo attempted to find out if he was. Certainly Froome didn't follow Contador down the Sarenne - what if Movistar had tried to follow Saxo there - then we'd have found out whether Froome could descend or not - as it was he didn't have to push the limits there as he knew they could get 2 riders back in the valley.

Other than that yes the stage where Contador crashed on the descent, the echelon stage , they had a go. Whether Contador could have held on to 2nd spot I don't know but I'm pretty certain he'd have stayed on the podium if he'd ridden more conservatively.

lloyd_bower

frenchfighter wrote:

I reckon he will probably take a pay cut until and if he returns to World Beater. I know he is super motivated to beat Froome.

Lack of professionalism and laziness is 100% the wrong thing to say about him and shows how little Oleg knows.

I doubt we'll see Contador offering to take a pay cut! though his value might be less.

I'm sure lack of effort his the one thing you can't accuse Contador of though. He's just less immortal sans dope, and nearer the pack which is to be expected.

Setarkos

No tA Doctor wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

Riis wasn't at the Tour this year.

Errr, yes, he was. Missed the first few days, that's all.

My bad.

Turfle

He's quite an unpleasant man (if that twitter actually is him).

As for Contador, I think this is just who he's been since he came back. He can't sustain attacks or go with attacks, and he can't TT. He's a podium contender now - and no shame in that.

Overpaid? Sure, but that's the risk of signing a former great who is coming back from a doping ban.

Setarkos

Tom Butcher wrote:

Saxo did not mess up the bike change in the last TT - as I remember it Froome was coming into the last time check well ahead before he stopped to change bikes, and then finished well ahead - the bike change / no bike change issue made very little difference to the result - it may have gained or lost Froome a handful of seconds but we don't know.

Time difference Froome/Contador:
top of 1st climb: +2"
bottom of 2nd climb: +20"
top of 2nd climb: +11"
finish: -9"

Contador lost a few seconds on the last descent to Purito and Piti as well.

Source: http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2013/us/li ... -1700.html

Pross

Setarkos wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Saxo did not mess up the bike change in the last TT - as I remember it Froome was coming into the last time check well ahead before he stopped to change bikes, and then finished well ahead - the bike change / no bike change issue made very little difference to the result - it may have gained or lost Froome a handful of seconds but we don't know.

Time difference Froome/Contador:
top of 1st climb: +2"
bottom of 2nd climb: +20"
top of 2nd climb: +11"
finish: -9"

Contador lost a few seconds on the last descent to Purito and Piti as well.

Source: http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2013/us/li ... -1700.html

But that +11" ignores the fact that Froome changed his bike a few metres short of the time check so in reality he was probably already level with Bertie. It was a clever tactic by Sky to help get duff info to Saxo. Add to that, Sky always look for negative splits i.e. try to make the second half of the ride quicker than the first.

Tom Butcher

Well I may be wrong, correct me if I am (but I don't think I am), Froome was almost in the last check when he changed bikes and if he hadn't he'd have been well ahead of Contador going through it. In other words Froome was already leading the TT before he changed bikes and by your figures above must have been pulling out that lead in the latter stages before the bike change.

That surely is the most relevant fact - the bike change didn't make a deal of difference.

edit - cross post with Pross

Pross

adamfo wrote:

OnYourRight wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Contrary to popular opinion, Froome never looked shaky on the descents

Agreed. Froome is a proper racer with few real chinks in his armour. A hard guy to beat in a stage race. I think Contador’s approach was most likely to work, because Froome has a surprisingly reckless attitude to risk and can be goaded into doing silly things. He descended far too fast on several occasions when he didn’t strictly need to, he attacked needlessly early on stage 20 and lost half a minute to Quintana, he bonked once, etc. Beating Froome will involve repeatedly putting him under pressure and waiting for him to make a mistake or have a bad day, not fighting him on his own turf. Contador tried that, and it didn’t work this time – but it might have.

Froome has an analytical mind, he studied economics at university. The mistakes he made are unlikely to be repeated.

I doubt that's true, he seemed to adopt similar (attacking) tactics to the Vuelta last year but had the form to carry through with them early in the Tour. In the last few days he attacked needlessly and blew himself up a couple of times. He rides impulsively which is good to watch and far from the controlled Sky / Wiggins way but it is the sort of riding that can cause bad days.

Setarkos

Pross wrote:

But that +11" ignores the fact that Froome changed his bike a few metres short of the time check so in reality he was probably already level with Bertie. It was a clever tactic by Sky to help get duff info to Saxo. Add to that, Sky always look for negative splits i.e. try to make the second half of the ride quicker than the first.

Well it's pointless to speculate but Froome won 20" against Contador on the last descent where they had different bikes and the other main contenders all changed bikes to whom Contador and Kreuziger also lost a few seconds (Purito/Valverde)

Paulie W

Pross wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Saxo did not mess up the bike change in the last TT - as I remember it Froome was coming into the last time check well ahead before he stopped to change bikes, and then finished well ahead - the bike change / no bike change issue made very little difference to the result - it may have gained or lost Froome a handful of seconds but we don't know.

Time difference Froome/Contador:
top of 1st climb: +2"
bottom of 2nd climb: +20"
top of 2nd climb: +11"
finish: -9"

Contador lost a few seconds on the last descent to Purito and Piti as well.

Source: http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2013/us/li ... -1700.html

But that +11" ignores the fact that Froome changed his bike a few metres short of the time check so in reality he was probably already level with Bertie. It was a clever tactic by Sky to help get duff info to Saxo. Add to that, Sky always look for negative splits i.e. try to make the second half of the ride quicker than the first.

That's irrelevant - he gained 20 seconds on Contador from that time check and it rained for Froome on the descent so you could suggest that in identitical conditions he could have gained more. Of course, we cant know that this was down to bike and not down to other factors but Contador certainly thought it was.

Setarkos

Tom Butcher wrote:

In other words Froome was already leading the TT before he changed bikes and by your figures above must have been pulling out that lead in the latter stages before the bike change.

The bike change didn't take 10s and yes, he did make up time to Contador but in the end it doesn't matter who is faster in what section but the total time in the end and On different bikes (no other differences) Froome was 20 seconds faster on the last descent.

mididoctors

smithy21 wrote:

The only person who really knows the answer to this is Contador himself. Could be just a simple case of him not being the same rider without the PED's, age catching up, maybe he misjudged the quality of the opposition, maybe he was used to winning races on his terms and couldnt deal with a dominant team.

I get that he tried but just couldnt make anything stick but I wouldnt in a million years have imagined we would have seen Kreuziger dragging him up mountains.

+1 really

speculation...if he did overly rely on the gear in the past It may be he has to relearn how to get himself into peak shape. He may come back as there may be headroom for improvement

the mind is there he kept trying to follow froomes wheel and blew twice I think

ventoux and ax...if he let go earlier and paced he may have finished on the podium?

despite not really being a fan and not being someone who sort of felt sorry he missed the podium that race benefitted greatly by his presence. I hope he comes back stronger

mididoctors

Setarkos wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

In other words Froome was already leading the TT before he changed bikes and by your figures above must have been pulling out that lead in the latter stages before the bike change.

The bike change didn't take 10s and yes, he did make up time to Contador but in the end it doesn't matter who is faster in what section but the total time in the end and On different bikes (no other differences) Froome was 20 seconds faster on the last descent.

I tell you this whatever the truth of the bike change effect the two of them were close... contador was staring daggers as he watched froome just pip him.

mididoctors

ademort wrote:

He also says that Roberto is not value for money. His performance does not match the salary he is on and Contador is too rich and not hungry enough and says he needs to work harder.

well he is signing the checks!

this guy is starting to come across as a bit of a character.

ademort

mididoctors wrote:

ademort wrote:

He also says that Roberto is not value for money. His performance does not match the salary he is on and Contador is too rich and not hungry enough and says he needs to work harder.

well he is signing the checks!

this guy is starting to come across as a bit of a character.

It,s not the first time Oleg,s put his foot in it, do you remember this
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/geschke ... am-licence

goonz

I personally think there are a few riders who are no longer real contenders. They will be there or there abouts but not realistically likely to challenge for GC in the next few years. Contador being one. Nothing in this tour gave the impression he could go on to win in any other year.

Clearly his doping day are over and its now back to the hard grind which is not good enough. Froome, Nibs, even J-Rod are potentially better GC and then you have the new guard, Quintana being one of the best by the looks of things.

frenchfighter

You dont just back a rider when they are on top of the World if you are a real fan.

Old school heavyweight forever.

As Robert Millar said himself: `Best stage race rider of his generation`

Tom Butcher

Setarkos wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

In other words Froome was already leading the TT before he changed bikes and by your figures above must have been pulling out that lead in the latter stages before the bike change.

The bike change didn't take 10s and yes, he did make up time to Contador but in the end it doesn't matter who is faster in what section but the total time in the end and On different bikes (no other differences) Froome was 20 seconds faster on the last descent.

Yes and he made up about the same amount of time on the previous (shorter) section on a road bike if you factor in the bike change. That's the point - Froome was finishing fast and Contador fading. Froome may have gained but we are talking maybe 5 seconds at most.

I don't really think Riis should be in charge of a team but to say he got his tactics "very wrong" as someone did is a bit strong.

Setarkos

How do you know it gave him 5 and not 9 seconds?
There is a lot more time to be gained uphill than downhill. It may have made the difference it may not have.

andrewjoseph

bertie can win a tour after being dragged off a beach holiday with very little preparation, but can't win a tour after training for it.

i think oleg has a point. ;-)

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

Lack of professionalism and laziness is 100% the wrong thing to say about him and shows how little Oleg knows.

He's certainly not lazy but as a recent drug cheat we have to accept that his "professionalism" rating has taken a smashing.

If he stays clean and continues to conduct himself well in the coming years then I'm sure his reputation as a professional will grow.

thamacdaddy

Thats the point really. We know in the past Contador has had that old school attitude in preparing for racing (in more ways than one) where as the point about effort is not about in race but out of race. There is seems to be something the team know about outside of the race that leads to criticism around effort in preparation which led to the fact he looked well off during the tour.

More teams are going to adopt the Sky approach if they aren't already in terms of conditioning their riders and controlling their training.

mike6

mididoctors wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

In other words Froome was already leading the TT before he changed bikes and by your figures above must have been pulling out that lead in the latter stages before the bike change.

The bike change didn't take 10s and yes, he did make up time to Contador but in the end it doesn't matter who is faster in what section but the total time in the end and On different bikes (no other differences) Froome was 20 seconds faster on the last descent.

I tell you this whatever the truth of the bike change effect the two of them were close... contador was staring daggers as he watched froome just pip him.[/qe

Well....on the TV coverage Froome was at least 11 seconds behind when he passed the last checkpoint. On the TT bike he made it up, plus a further 8 seconds. It was probably a mixture of losing the stage and the sight of Froome changing bikes that did Contador's head in. He did not look pleased. This "marginal Gains" thing might only get you 20 seconds or so, on a short TT stage, but extrapolate that, even perceived, gain over the whole Tour and it is meaningful.
Also, Contador spent a lot of time out of the saddle, not a good idea in a TT usually. I know it was a hilly route but Froome stayed on the TT bars most of the time. Can someone who is well up on aerodynamics say if it would make much difference at the speeds they were doing.

iainf72

Question for all the "Berts slower coz he's doing it clean"

Was he clean in 2011 when he crushed everyone in the Giro? If so, why? He'd already tested + and what not. Did he decide it wasn't worth doping during ban?

Puzzled...

Dorset_Boy

I think he's only gone clean since this last winter - he was juiced up in 2011, and probably to a lesser degree in 2012. Perhaps the realization that Lance has finally been nailed, plus other riders coming out has hit him.

Vino'sGhost

Dorset Boy wrote:

I think he's only gone clean since this last winter - he was juiced up in 2011, and probably to a lesser degree in 2012. Perhaps the realization that Lance has finally been nailed, plus other riders coming out has hit him.

And i dont think he was beaten by clean riders.........

OOOO the shame, my opinion its worth as much as everyone elses

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

Question for all the "Berts slower coz he's doing it clean"

Was he clean in 2011 when he crushed everyone in the Giro? If so, why? He'd already tested + and what not. Did he decide it wasn't worth doping during ban?

Puzzled...

Fair Question...IF you look at that years top 10

DSQ Alberto Contador (ESP) Saxo Bank-SunGard 84h 05' 14"
1 Michele Scarponi (ITA) Pink jersey Red jersey Lampre-ISD 84h 11' 24"
2 Vincenzo Nibali (ITA) Liquigas-Cannondale + 46"
3 John Gadret (FRA) Ag2r-La Mondiale + 3' 54"
4 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Team Katusha + 4' 55"
5 Roman Kreuziger (CZE) White jersey Astana + 5' 18"
6 José Rujano (VEN) Androni Giocattoli + 6' 02"
7 Denis Menchov (RUS) Geox-TMC + 6' 08"
8 Steven Kruijswijk (NED) Rabobank + 7' 41"
9 Kanstantsin Sivtsov (BLR) HTC-Highroad + 8' 00"
10 Mikel Nieve (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi + 9' 58"


I think it would be fair to say he did nt have the stiffest of competition. The guy in second FFS!! They guy in 7th!!!!!

Walter White

For what its worth Contador did say himself not swapping bikes in the MTT was a mistake.

Froome was going through the last check about the same time as conatdor give or take a couple of seconds.

EPO Delivery Man

Contador post dodgy steak looks half the man he was when hammering the dodgy corned beef.

thomthom

Walter White wrote:

For what its worth Contador did say himself not swapping bikes in the MTT was a mistake.

Froome was going through the last check about the same time as conatdor give or take a couple of seconds.

He did?
http://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/article2043599.ece