Losing Visceral fat

keef66

Diets of very low carb /unrestricted fat or of very low fat /unrestricted carbohydrate are neither sustainable nor very good for you. Both lost weight because their diets were unpalatable. The low carb diet more so because it included a lot of protein which more quickly made him feel full. Lack of hill climbing ability on a very low carb diet shouldn't come as a surprise to a cyclist.

The real killer is the combination of sugar and fat because it is extremely tasty and we appear able to over-consume it to a spectacular degree.

Ben and Jerry have a lot to answer for...

meanredspider

What I found really amazing (as it seems did the twin doctors) was that a high fat diet increased his risk of diabetes much more that the twin on a high sugar diet. 8 years of working in the diabetes medical device industry and it came as a real surprise to me.

JustinLeeAtkinson

keef66 wrote:

Both lost weight because their diets were unpalatable. .

Thats your conclusion then, I dont recall that being the explanation in the programme, and there was certainly a scientific explanation for the the loss of muscle in the fat only twin.

Clear conclusion was that the fat/sugar combined recipe was the route to obesity though as you mentioned. Cheesecake anyone...?!

temitchell1987

madasahattersley wrote:

BillyMansell wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

The RDA of 2500 calories is based on a sedentary lifestyle and is a minimum based on an average body weight. Then you get people on forums like this one recommending strict calorie restriction of maybe 1800 calories per day for a 100kg bloke. This is NOT POSSIBLE. Performance will diminish to the point of not being able to excercise, you'll get depressed very quickly, binge eating will make it impossible etc. Even if it does work, eating that few calories is starvation, an absolute eating disorder.

Such nonsense. It's quite possible for a person to consume fewer calories and to exercise. As for stating it will make you depressed and being an eating disorder, such utter pish.

Go on then, try eating 1500 calories less than you need and let me know how many days before you crack?

I am currently a 100kg man with a weight target of 90kg. This weight is mainly due to the fact I used to play a good standard of rugby so used to weight train alot, however when I got injured and retired 2 years ago I continued to eat as much as I had done when weight training and put on 20kg (worst weight got up to 115kg), I know calorie count using myfitnesspal. Occasional cheat days, but I still count it because it tells me how fat I'll get if I do it every day. So I often have a calorie deficit of between 1000-1500 calories if I ride.

Not everyone is the same, I find that I have to exercise and control my intake to control my weight (my brother in law however eats between 3000-3500 calories most days, does a bit of exercise here and there and is 6'5" and 12 stone soaking wet), in no way have I got and eating disorder, nor am I depressed. Your comments are based on absolutely no fact. The fact is that if you eat less than you burn you will lose weight. If you eat less than you burn but eat the wrong things you will only last so long granted but providing you are sensible you can do it.
It's clear there are more people on here who can testify to losing weight from limiting calorie intake than those who have put weight on by doing it.......

meanredspider

I think you're probably the exception that proves the rule. There's plenty of studies that have shown that people who just focus on exercise tend to put on weight or lose significantly less than those who focus on diet simply because they overcompensate for the exercise they've done. IF your diet is already perfect for weight maintenance (unlikely if you want to lose significant weight) and then you add significant exercise, you are, in effect, calorie-restricting. Part of the trouble though is that we all know that calculating calories burned in exercise is difficult. Calculating what calories you're eating is much easier. It also doesn't rely on finding an hour or two a day and is easier to fit into people's lives.

jotko

For most people with work family commitments etc it's a lot easier to not eat 500 calories a day than to burn 500 calories a day through exercise.

FWIW the best thing you can do (if it is an option) is commute to work on your bike. I do 26 miles a day if I ride in (~1000 calories) and I don't really have to find the time to do it. Saves me £8 a day as well.

Camcycle1974

Agree with the two sensible comments above. Much easier to manipulate diet than to find an hour or more a day to exercise. I ride because I love it, not to control my weight.

Camcycle1974

Luke, with respect you are a pro cyclist, not your average Joe doing a 50 mile training ride once a week on a Sunday. The amount of riding you do will largely offset any calorie surplus. For those of us who can't train as much a moderate calorie deficit is a useful tool for weight loss. A daily 16h fast creates my deficit without the usual feelings of restriction as I can still eat decent sized meals and lost weight.

muzzmackay

Surprisingly, eating LESS carbs and MORE FAT may help you.

Seems to have helped this endurance athlete.

meanredspider

muzzmackay wrote:

Surprisingly, eating LESS carbs and MORE FAT may help you.

Seems to have helped this endurance athlete.

Sure, I ate protein ....., but in very low amounts

There's stupid right there

muzzmackay

meanredspider wrote:

muzzmackay wrote:

Surprisingly, eating LESS carbs and MORE FAT may help you.

Seems to have helped this endurance athlete.

Sure, I ate protein ....., but in very low amounts

There's stupid right there

Best put that whole section in so it makes sense. Could it be he ate mostly carbs ?

"Sure, I ate protein and fat, but in very low amounts. All my undergraduate and graduate nutrition classes taught that and, of course, all of the endurance magazines and nutrition products touted the benefits of high-carb diets".

meanredspider

muzzmackay wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

muzzmackay wrote:

Surprisingly, eating LESS carbs and MORE FAT may help you.

Seems to have helped this endurance athlete.

Sure, I ate protein ....., but in very low amounts

There's stupid right there

Best put that whole section in so it makes sense. Could it be he ate mostly carbs ?

"Sure, I ate protein and fat, but in very low amounts. All my undergraduate and graduate nutrition classes taught that and, of course, all of the endurance magazines and nutrition products touted the benefits of high-carb diets".

I'm not sure how that helps. Even GCSE school kids know that you need protein for body repairs. Since an athlete is all about body changes and repairs, eating protein in "very low amounts" is stupid

muzzmackay

Well lets all be glad he sorted himself out

rayjay

I always recommend that the fat ones, you know , they wear the big black baggy clothes and just have a carrot and hot water when out with their friends, but when they get home they dial out for a extra fat super large Pizza of joy and gluttony with extra fat cheese and hot dogs in the crust with a big side of mash and gravy and a bottle of Sunny delight followed by a tub of Ben and Jerry's chocolate big boy.
you know them, you know the fat ones, about half an hour later they eat seven doughnuts and a bag of cheese and onion and half a bottle of a very nice Chianti ...I say stop putting so much crap down your throat and you won't get so fat.

I am available for any of your health concerns ,,,at a huge fee

slowbike

rayjay wrote:

I always recommend that the fat ones, you know , they wear the big black baggy clothes and just have a carrot and hot water when out with their friends, but when they get home they dial out for a extra fat super large Pizza of joy and gluttony with extra fat cheese and hot dogs in the crust with a big side of mash and gravy and a bottle of Sunny delight followed by a tub of Ben and Jerry's chocolate big boy.
you know them, you know the fat ones, about half an hour later they eat seven doughnuts and a bag of cheese and onion and half a bottle of a very nice Chianti ...I say stop putting so much crap down your throat and you won't get so fat.

I am available for any of your health concerns ,,,at a huge fee

I have to assume you're joking ...

Not every "fat" person is like that. I know fat ppl who eat less than I do but don't lose the weight.

For those who do throw loads of food/drink down their throats then weight loss is quite simple (even if it is hard to achieve mentally). For those whose metabolic rates are so low that they can eat a stick of celery and put weight on it's much much harder.

rayjay

Slowbike wrote:

rayjay wrote:

I always recommend that the fat ones, you know , they wear the big black baggy clothes and just have a carrot and hot water when out with their friends, but when they get home they dial out for a extra fat super large Pizza of joy and gluttony with extra fat cheese and hot dogs in the crust with a big side of mash and gravy and a bottle of Sunny delight followed by a tub of Ben and Jerry's chocolate big boy.
you know them, you know the fat ones, about half an hour later they eat seven doughnuts and a bag of cheese and onion and half a bottle of a very nice Chianti ...I say stop putting so much crap down your throat and you won't get so fat.

I am available for any of your health concerns ,,,at a huge fee

I have to assume you're joking ...

Not every "fat" person is like that. I know fat ppl who eat less than I do but don't lose the weight.

For those who do throw loads of food/drink down their throats then weight loss is quite simple (even if it is hard to achieve mentally). For those whose metabolic rates are so low that they can eat a stick of celery and put weight on it's much much harder.

It was a joke ,,,sort of.

We now seem to have a high amount of obesity, IMO the fast and easy food culture that we now have,has become the norm and is a lot to do with this. People have forgot how to cook.

Have you seen that show secret eaters. Its usually starts with some fat people saying how healthy they eat and they don't know how they got so fat. Then the camera's follow them around for a few days and they catch them eating all sorts of crap. Most of the time people are in denial. I don't know your friends ,they may have a thyroid problem but that's not that common.
Some people don't even realise that what they are eating is quite high in fats and bad sugars.
Education is important.
IMO it boils down to common sense and most fat people make excuses for their bad life style choice and won't admit they need help.
We all know when we eat that doughnut that we might as well rub it on our thighs if we are not prepared to work those extra calories off. We all know, at least should know what we are eating.

slowbike

rayjay wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

rayjay wrote:

I always recommend that the fat ones, you know , they wear the big black baggy clothes and just have a carrot and hot water when out with their friends, but when they get home they dial out for a extra fat super large Pizza of joy and gluttony with extra fat cheese and hot dogs in the crust with a big side of mash and gravy and a bottle of Sunny delight followed by a tub of Ben and Jerry's chocolate big boy.
you know them, you know the fat ones, about half an hour later they eat seven doughnuts and a bag of cheese and onion and half a bottle of a very nice Chianti ...I say stop putting so much crap down your throat and you won't get so fat.

I am available for any of your health concerns ,,,at a huge fee

I have to assume you're joking ...

Not every "fat" person is like that. I know fat ppl who eat less than I do but don't lose the weight.

For those who do throw loads of food/drink down their throats then weight loss is quite simple (even if it is hard to achieve mentally). For those whose metabolic rates are so low that they can eat a stick of celery and put weight on it's much much harder.

It was a joke ,,,sort of.

We now seem to have a high amount of obesity, IMO the fast and easy food culture that we now have,has become the norm and is a lot to do with this. People have forgot how to cook.

Have you seen that show secret eaters. Its usually starts with some fat people saying how healthy they eat and they don't know how they got so fat. Then the camera's follow them around for a few days and they catch them eating all sorts of crap. Most of the time people are in denial. I don't know your friends ,they may have a thyroid problem but that's not that common.
Some people don't even realise that what they are eating is quite high in fats and bad sugars.
Education is important.
IMO it boils down to common sense and most fat people make excuses for their bad life style choice and won't admit they need help.
We all know when we eat that doughnut that we might as well rub it on our thighs if we are not prepared to work those extra calories off. We all know, at least should know what we are eating.

I know these ppl - they're not cheating - they're genuinely eating less than me - but you've got the right bit - it's a lifestyle "choice" where they had a period of time of not being significantly active - and now it's a struggle to get more active once more.

Also, we're not all built the same - some ppl are more predisposed to being a larger build so have to work hard at keeping the weight off - whilst others can eat till the cows come home and still lose weight.

keef66

While channel hopping I encountered the 70 stone bloke trying to lose enough weight to make surgery possible. I thought he must have a serious medical condition to explain the weight. Then they said at one time he'd been consuming 10,000 calories a day :shock:

That's the thing I can never get my head around. I start to feel uncomfortable after the inevitable Xmas over-indulgence when my trousers feel a bit snug around the waist. But I stop eating crap again and my weight is back to normal in a few weeks.

At some point that bloke must have noticed the weight building up, his clothes no longer fitting him, his genitals disappearing, and losing the ability to get out of bed. But in spite of all that he carried on over-eating on an industrial scale.
Surely some kind of psychological intervention would have been more appropriate at an earlier stage? You try to kill yourself with an overdose and you're going to spend some time with a shrink. Try to eat yourself to death and you get lifting equipment and bariatric surgery. And the people who were supplying him with 10,000 calories a day? Are they not guilty of something?

Sorry, went off on a ramble there.

meanredspider

Slowbike wrote:

Also, we're not all built the same - some ppl are more predisposed to being a larger build

Especially if you live in a country called "America"

It seems there's some truth in the metabolism thing but there's also an increasing number of people who are just getting fat from eating far more than they use

slowbike

keef66 wrote:

While channel hopping I encountered the 70 stone bloke trying to lose enough weight to make surgery possible. I thought he must have a serious medical condition to explain the weight. Then they said at one time he'd been consuming 10,000 calories a day :shock:

Yes - that's quite shocking - to a point he could be obtaining the food himself, but beyond a certain point then it has to be carers getting it for him. You'd think it'd be quite simple to give him xxxx calories a day and unlimited water supply....

slowbike

meanredspider wrote:

It seems there's some truth in the metabolism thing but there's also an increasing number of people who are just getting fat from eating far more than they use

Yes - there is a growing number of ppl eating themselves into obesity - it's easy to sit on the sofa watching TV and shuving chocolate bars down your throat.

But the anti-fatties have to remember that that isn't the only reason why ppl put on too much weight.

rayjay

There was a very interesting show I saw a while back ,can't remember the name , BBC show I think.
It showed that foods that had %50 sugar %50 fat can be very addictive. It's like the magic number for getting people to eat your food. Ice cream, glazed doughtnuts etc .

I always feel awful if I indulge a bit to much. The next day I just don't feel like eating crap. I want to get myself feeling good again. I just don't understand how people let themselves get so big.
We have all kinds of super models both men and women advertising everything,,, being in incredible shape like that is the norm. People cannot compete with that image. Self esteem becomes a big issue for a lot of people.
Images should be realistic, it sends out the wrong messages. People have their lives to live and cannot spend all day in the gym. Eating well and healthy. If your fat, don't eat crap. Eat a bit more healthy. Eat a bit less and you will lose weight. Calories in calories out.

slowbike

rayjay wrote:

Eating well and healthy. If your fat, don't eat crap. Eat a bit more healthy. Eat a bit less and you will lose weight. Calories in calories out.

Really - again ... it isn't always that simple.

meanredspider

Slowbike wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Eating well and healthy. If your fat, don't eat crap. Eat a bit more healthy. Eat a bit less and you will lose weight. Calories in calories out.

Really - again ... it isn't always that simple.

What happens to the people whose metabolism is slow if they hardly eat? Do they pass out? Does the body have no mechanism for using the fat? Is their blood sugar level stupidly low in normal state? That's the bit I haven't understood. They must be using some calories in order to live - the rest gets stored as fat - I just haven't figured out how all of that works.

rayjay

How much of your weight depends on your genes?
Genes are probably a significant contributor to your obesity if you have most or all of the following characteristics:

You have been overweight for much of your life.
One or both of your parents or several other blood relatives are significantly overweight. If both of your parents have obesity, your likelihood of developing obesity is as high as 80%.
You can’t lose weight even when you increase your physical activity and stick to a low-calorie diet for many months.
Genes are probably a lower contributor for you if you have most or all of the following characteristics:

You are strongly influenced by the availability of food.
You are moderately overweight, but you can lose weight when you follow a reasonable diet and exercise program.
You regain lost weight during the holiday season, after changing your eating or exercise habits, or at times when you experience psychological or social problems.
These circumstances suggest that you have a genetic predisposition to be heavy, but it’s not so great that you can’t overcome it with some effort.

At the other end of the spectrum, you can assume that your genetic predisposition to obesity is modest if your weight is normal and doesn’t increase even when you regularly indulge in high-calorie foods and rarely exercise.


People with only a moderate genetic predisposition to be overweight have a good chance of losing weight on their own by eating fewer calories and getting more vigorous exercise more often. These people are more likely to be able to maintain this lower weight.

ai_1

rayjay wrote:

...I always feel awful if I indulge a bit to much. The next day I just don't feel like eating crap. I want to get myself feeling good again. I just don't understand how people let themselves get so big......
......People have their lives to live and cannot spend all day in the gym. Eating well and healthy. If your fat, don't eat crap. Eat a bit more healthy. Eat a bit less and you will lose weight. Calories in calories out.

The tough thing about food is that there are very deep seated triggers that are far more powerful than will power in the long term. All the studies I've seen show that once you've gotten into bad habits will power alone is simply not capable of getting you back on track.
If you become addicted to food there's no option to simply quit. You can't go cold turkey. You need food. Food has been processed and marketed with the specific aim of making it more addictive and easy to obtain, afford & consume. There's no mystery to the proliferation of obesity!

It's very easy for people with no issue maintaining a healthy weight to say "It's simple, just eat less. These people have no will-power" etc...
If the reality was that straight forward there wouldn't be a problem. It's not. Will power is a short term tool. You can't change long term habits or overcome real craving or serious addictions with will power alone. Countless studies have shown this to be true. Those who think a lack of will power is the core of the problem don't understand it. In fact, thinking that will power is the cause/solution usually makes things worse. How many women do you know who are overweight or think they are so they decide to go on an unsustainable "diet" only to inevitably fail to maintain it and bounce back to a higher weight than before. They try again and again and each time they get heavier not lighter. There's a number of mechanisms at play and I won't pretend to fully understand them but essentially their attempts to use "willpower" and their impatience to lose weight results in cycles of starvation and binge eating because you trigger your mind and body to respond to periods of withdrawal of nutrition by increasing cravings for high energy foods and increasing fat stores as the circumstances allow. Historically these mechanisms acted to protect humans or our predecessors from periods of scarcity - now they're driving a vicious cycle that dooms the efforts of anyone who falls for the claims that there's anything to be gained by dramatic diets (esp. fad diets).

Medical aberations like "slow metabolism" or thyroid problems is not the problem except perhaps for a tiny fraction of the obese population.

When I was younger I ate what I liked but not badly and my weight stayed stable and pretty healthy. As I got into my late twenties and early thirties my lifestyle was pretty sedentary and my weight started slowly drifting up. Nothing too dramatic but over a period of several years it got too high for good health. I was certainly overweight but I don't think most people would have called me fat, I have muscular frame that hid it somewhat. Anyway, when your body adapts to a higher weight, that new higher weight becomes essentially a setpoint. It's relatively easy to raise the setpoint but it's extremely difficult to lower it. Even having lost weight, you need to work to maintain it, in a way that someone who was always that weight does not. People who have never been noticeably overweight don't realise that and can be extremely judgemental about something they clearly don't understand. having said that, most heavy people don't understand it either!

slowbike

meanredspider wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Eating well and healthy. If your fat, don't eat crap. Eat a bit more healthy. Eat a bit less and you will lose weight. Calories in calories out.

Really - again ... it isn't always that simple.

What happens to the people whose metabolism is slow if they hardly eat? Do they pass out? Does the body have no mechanism for using the fat? Is their blood sugar level stupidly low in normal state? That's the bit I haven't understood. They must be using some calories in order to live - the rest gets stored as fat - I just haven't figured out how all of that works.

If I knew the answer I'd be a rich man - or we'd have many thinner ppl!

meanredspider

Slowbike wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Eating well and healthy. If your fat, don't eat crap. Eat a bit more healthy. Eat a bit less and you will lose weight. Calories in calories out.

Really - again ... it isn't always that simple.

What happens to the people whose metabolism is slow if they hardly eat? Do they pass out? Does the body have no mechanism for using the fat? Is their blood sugar level stupidly low in normal state? That's the bit I haven't understood. They must be using some calories in order to live - the rest gets stored as fat - I just haven't figured out how all of that works.

If I knew the answer I'd be a rich man - or we'd have many thinner ppl!

Surely they know. There must have been instances where these folk have gone short of food...

slowbike

I think they know quite a bit ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catabolism

but perhaps rather crucially, not an easy way to change the type/amount of energy used.

Anyway - have a read of this
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledg ... eigh-less/

I think the last line is complete cobblers though ... but there are some bits in there about calorie deficit and the body doing less that could be true.

keef66

Not sure Zoe Harcombe is an unbiased read. She seems to have some kind of agenda going on.