Another death in London...

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

If there is any form of memorial/protest/road safety ride as a result of this, please post details. Despite my stance protest rides - I gladly add my bike for something like this.

Tonight 18:15 meet in russel Square for an 18:30 departure. organised by the LCC


Edited to credit the LCC not the CTC

DonDaddyD

Many thanks

cookeeemonster

nah it's the LCC: http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-organise ... r-cycling/

There's a number of feeder rides leading up to it too.

Cant make this one, but the one on Friday was well organised - 1500 people, good atmosphere, plenty of tv and news coverage. ITV news are sending a crew tonight apparently

spen666

CookeeeMonster wrote:

nah it's the LCC: http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-organise ... r-cycling/

There's a number of feeder rides leading up to it too.

Cant make this one, but the one on Friday was well organised - 1500 people, good atmosphere, plenty of tv and news coverage. ITV news are sending a crew tonight apparently

My mistake, I was posting from memory - it seemed wrong as I typed it to say CTC instead of LCC

adam0bmx0

Used to cycle up that road every day to uni, it can be manic as cars and lorries barrel along the road. Nearly got left hooked by a woman on her phone driving a 4x4! She'sd just overtaken me (I was in the bus lane on the left) then cut across, couldn't believe it, then saw her on the phone! just shook my head and carried on.

sketchley

I think I'll be heading there tonight. I'll be leaving from Docklands if anyone wants to join me let me know.

Clever Pun

I'm heading over as well

lastant

After reading about the latest casualty on London's roads I felt that I had to include myself in the numbers tonight. I went and took part in this (didn't spot either of you two, Clever Pun or Sketchley) and it was an impressive turn-out...I overheard a couple of the LCC-bibbed organisers / volunteers suggest there were possibly 2,000 riders in total?

It was a bit stop-start, certainly far more than I envisaged it being (the whole 2mi. or so route took about half an hour) and I have to admit I felt sorry for the pedestrians wanting to cross that we kept waiting and the obvious queues that had built up at the bus stops as we neared the finish towards Lincoln's Inn Fields.

Hopefully we achieve something from it, although I'm not sure what the actual message was other than to highlight the fact that we're on the roads and we're unlikely to be going anywhere so please look out for us?

Something needs to be done, whether it's as 'simple' as banning these vehicles from our commuter belts in peak hours or a far-more ambitious solution involving re-structuring our transport network...I'm just not convinced these small flash rides are as big a voice as perhaps some people think.

I'm not sure what the solution is - perhaps it's a case of going big along the lines of the Westminster motorcycle parking tax? There's enough of us to clog up a system, but that's the opposite of what we're trying to say...get more people onto bikes and the road and city becomes a nicer place.

Having seen a couple of riders have a go at a taxi and his passenger for having the temerity to point out that the protest was taking up two lanes of traffic and holding him up (to be honest, he had a point...it was ridiculous that riders were being encouraged to take both lanes at that point), I do wonder if perhaps the best thing we could do is accept that the roads are for sharing and it's not a case of 'us vs. them'?

Headcam vigilanties, nodders with no road awareness and those that seemingly have no patience whatsoever...they're just as bad as the drivers some cyclists seem adament are the 'bad guys'. Maybe if we all just started acknowledging other road users when appropriate and passed on knowledge as to the best practice of city cycling we'd help make cycling in this city even more pleasant than it can be at the moment (because the majority of days aren't bad, we just remember those ones).

It's late. I'm rambling. I apologise.

daviesee

lastant wrote:

....I do wonder if perhaps the best thing we could do is accept that the roads are for sharing and it's not a case of 'us vs. them'?
...

And there is the main issue.
There are far too many drivers who simply believe that we shouldn't be there.

I have said it before and I make no apology for repeating it again but:-
The only thing that will change things is education and people's attitudes, both drivers and cyclists.
You can change the laws and infrastructure all you want but this will continue.
If everybody simply obeyed the highway code and showed a little patience and courtesy things could dramatically improve. Unfortunately, too high a percentage of the population is too selfish for this to happen.

jonny_trousers

daviesee wrote:

If everybody simply obeyed the highway code and showed a little patience and courtesy things could dramatically improve. Unfortunately, too high a percentage of the population is too selfish for this to happen.

Good two posts above, guys!

Although I do feel I want to support awareness and change, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with mass rides that inevitably end up frustrating and alienating. I haven't come up with a better solution, however, and I do admire those who took part for the right reasons.

On the day of this protest highlighting yet another needless death, I was astonished by the sheer number of RLJs I whitnessed on my way into work tonight. These weren't 'lycra louts' looking to beat their Strava times. These weren't chavs on un-roadworthy bikes. They were perfectly ordinary men and women on perfectly decent bikes travelling slowly! If you're not in a hurry then why on earth jump lights?!? I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but we can't have it both ways. We can't have respect from our fellow road users if we don't respect the rules of the roads we ride on.

prj45

lastant wrote:

Having seen a couple of riders have a go at a taxi and his passenger for having the temerity to point out that the protest was taking up two lanes of traffic and holding him up (to be honest, he had a point...it was ridiculous that riders were being encouraged to take both lanes at that point),

*rubs index finger and thumb together, smallest violin in the world*

I passed a taxi driver who was ranting out of his window, and then I asked him what taxi drivers do when they want to protest against pay and conditions. He knew the answer:

http://www.demotix.com/news/1358211/cab ... ia-1358222

prj45

To add.

Cyclist occasionally "block" london streets for a protest about road safety, delaying people for a while, motor vehicle drivers do it ever day as a matter of course.

il_principe

daviesee wrote:

lastant wrote:

....I do wonder if perhaps the best thing we could do is accept that the roads are for sharing and it's not a case of 'us vs. them'?
...

And there is the main issue.
There are far too many drivers who simply believe that we shouldn't be there.

I have said it before and I make no apology for repeating it again but:-
The only thing that will change things is education and people's attitudes, both drivers and cyclists.
You can change the laws and infrastructure all you want but this will continue.
If everybody simply obeyed the highway code and showed a little patience and courtesy things could dramatically improve. Unfortunately, too high a percentage of the population is too selfish for this to happen.

Not attitudes. It's behaviours that need to change.

DonDaddyD

There are occassions (usually exceptional circumstances) where following the highway code can place you in greater danger.

Stopped at a traffic lights with no ASL where a vehicle decides to pull up beside you. Now in situations like this, and if safe to do so, I won't move forward and position my bik infront of the driver - that'll antagonise him. I might, however, move through the lights (there by creating my own ASL ahead of the car and crossing), RLJ or if at a junction, wait on the other side of the crossing but not pass the junction until my light goes green. This is largely anecdotal/circumstantial and born from an experience I had when I waited at the lights alongside the car that didn't appreciate my wobble as I set off nor gave me any space when he drove off.

To add:

Blindly following the highway code, can in itself, create its own dangers. Personally I think attitudes to road use and the behaviour of people that use them needs to change.

I do think that with the increased number of cyclists on the road and the number of collisions involving cyclists is likely to increase while the percentage of accidents may very well decrease (assuming that's mathematically possible):

Example, a car waiting to turn left into a side road; now 5 years ago you'd only have to wait for 2 - 3 bikes to ride past whereas these days it could be as high as 10 - 12 bikes. With more cyclists on the road there is more potential for an accident to occur. I would also argue that the quality of cycling has gone down, the problem is that anyone can pick up a bike and ride it - cost of the bike and equipment, and physical fitness is not an indicator of that person's riding ability or how safe they are on a bike. There are many who have picked up a bike as a cheaper healthier alternative for their commute but who have no interest in reading cycle craft, following the Tour de France or even associating themselves as a 'cyclist'.

There is also the problem with the growing perception that somehow 'cyclists' are not people. I cite the girl who knocked over a person, didn't stop and then tweeted "definitely hit a cyclist today..." As though doing so was OK. What to challenge that - its exactly the same issue motorcyclist campaigners are attempting to address, where they set about attempting to remind people that 'bikers' are people with families, children, loved ones and friends.

There are so many other issues about people's attitudes, behaviour, perception and understanding that needs to be tackled long before we even begin to address things like infrastructure and implementing "a dutch style system".

roger_merriman

DonDaddyD wrote:

There are occassions (usually exceptional circumstances) where following the highway code can place you in greater danger.

Stopped at a traffic lights with no ASL where a vehicle decides to pull up beside you.

I'm not a aggressive rider and on the whole pull in, slow down etc to allow traffic to flow, but one place I always take the lane is junctions, if your in the middle of the lane cars will not pull beside you, I have never ever had to jump a red light.

spen666

@DDD (and others) - you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking the Highway Code is the law, it is not, it is only a CODE.

It is a very good code in most situations, but there are always going to be times when it is not the best thing to follow.

The problem is too many people make too many exceptions to that code to benefit themselves and ignore how their actions affect others

Ben6899

prj45 wrote:

lastant wrote:

Having seen a couple of riders have a go at a taxi and his passenger for having the temerity to point out that the protest was taking up two lanes of traffic and holding him up (to be honest, he had a point...it was ridiculous that riders were being encouraged to take both lanes at that point),

*rubs index finger and thumb together, smallest violin in the world*

Wrong attitude. If the riders could have occupied one lane only - as indicated by lastant's post - then they should have occupied one lane only, rather than blocking both lanes [to make a point?].

Just because taxi drivers demonstrate by blocking the roads, well... I'm sure your parents taught you that two wrongs do not make a right.

lastant

Apologies, I should clarify this point a little I think (it was late last night!). The road on which the protest was cycling down and this altercation happened was a two-way, single carriageway street...riders were taking both lanes preventing cars from progressing along the lane they were entitled to be in - it only served to antagonise the driver (and fare), and could easily have been avoided.

Just thought it was worth adding that little bit.

daviesee

spen666 wrote:

@DDD (and others) - you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking the Highway Code is the law, it is not, it is only a CODE.

It is a very good code in most situations, but there are always going to be times when it is not the best thing to follow.

The problem is too many people make too many exceptions to that code to benefit themselves and ignore how their actions affect others

Fair point.
Make it law.
If everybody obeyed it there wouldn't be "accidents".
In almost every incident at least one person has broken the code.
I am struggling to come up with a scenario where an accident could occur without someone breaking the code.
FWIW, IIRC there is no such thing as an accident in Italian law. Someone is always to blame.

Ben6899

lastant wrote:

Apologies, I should clarify this point a little I think (it was late last night!). The road on which the protest was cycling down and this altercation happened was a two-way, single carriageway street...riders were taking both lanes preventing cars from progressing along the lane they were entitled to be in - it only served to antagonise the driver (and fare), and could easily have been avoided.

Just thought it was worth adding that little bit.

Definitely worth adding, lastant. Thanks.

I am all for protests and raising awareness, but they have to be carried out carefully. When lorry drivers block roads - because of the fuel prices - I agree with their sentiments, but because of the hassle they cause I'm often minded to think "f*** the lorry drivers". There will have been drivers last night - previously ambivalent - thinking "f*** the cyclists", if lanes were being blocked unnecessarily.

That's the last I am posting in this thread because it's the wrong place. Apologies for derailing.

rick_chasey

Indeed. Probably the wrong place to discuss 'critical mass' style events.

It's been covered enough in the past anyway.

Let's hope the family appreciated the support and took it as I'm sure it was meant - as a show of respect to someone who suffered an untimely and decidedly unfortunate death.

cookeeemonster

daviesee wrote:

spen666 wrote:

@DDD (and others) - you seem to be falling into the trap of thinking the Highway Code is the law, it is not, it is only a CODE.

It is a very good code in most situations, but there are always going to be times when it is not the best thing to follow.

The problem is too many people make too many exceptions to that code to benefit themselves and ignore how their actions affect others

Fair point.
Make it law.
If everybody obeyed it there wouldn't be "accidents".
In almost every incident at least one person has broken the code.
I am struggling to come up with a scenario where an accident could occur without someone breaking the code.
FWIW, IIRC there is no such thing as an accident in Italian law. Someone is always to blame.

Totally agree with that, 100% overlooked when people quote the shocking death and serious injury toll that happens on our roads every year. Yes a bolt of lightening striking a tree that falls in your path is an 'accident', as is an animal running out unexpectedly and there are probably more, but most of the time it's due to people not looking properly and/or speeding

jonny_trousers

Rick Chasey wrote:

Indeed. Probably the wrong place to discuss 'critical mass' style events.

It's been covered enough in the past anyway.

Why? This is not a memorial thread; it's a discussion about a particularly awful incident and the aftermath of it. The critical mass style protest was a direct result of it, and that surely makes this thread the perfect place to discuss it, should contributors wish to do so.

Most topics relating to cycle commuting have been covered here in the past.

mtb-idle

an update on this sad story

Lorry driver "charged with causing the death by careless driving ... is also charged with “causing death by driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence,” meaning that he did not have a valid licence for the class of lorry he was driving at the time, and with causing death while driving with no insurance"

The Rookie

Lets hope the punishment matches the crime committed, which clearly we don't know all the facts about yet.