Female TdF

frosty99

I don't think there's anyone who actually disagrees with a women's tdf as a principle. The issue is how and when, currently there is not enough media demand for a female Tdf. (By media I mean commercial media not social media). ASO are quite right to rebut the idea of running a race concurrently. It would need to be extremely lucrative for them to even consider the logistical nightmare it would cause, and women's cycling is no where near lucrative.

It would be great to see a women's tdf but no one has any obligation to provide one just because it would be nice.


Women's cycling, in the uk at least, appears to be growing slowly, I would suggest that it focuses on proving it can sustain a calendar of week long stage races before petitioning/demanding a TDF

Tom Butcher

I don't think anyone is expecting a full 3 week tour with 100 mile stages - in other words a mirror of what the men have. But a smaller version maybe mirroring a week of the Tour - possibly with shorter stages (for logistical reasons, not because women can't race 100 miles) most days - why not ? No ASO don't have an obligation to provide that - but the UCI do have an obligation to try and grow the women's side of the sport and one way to do that would be to work with ASO and other organisers.

To say women's cycling will never be a large professional sport smacks of defeatism to me. Why shouldn't it be ? Yes there are obstacles and there is a long long way to go but then we've seen the way cycling has gone through the roof in the UK in terms of popularity - things can change and if you aim for the stars you might only reach the moon but at least that's something. Do people want to watch women's cycling - well I'd rather watch the female TdF than some domestic pros racing in front of sparse crowds in British town centres or some of the other races that get air time.

RideOnTime

Perhaps the Tour of Britain needs to show the way.

An 8 day tour seems emminently more suitable.

frenchfighter

"It’s the biggest race in the world," Pooley told CNN. It’s a matter of principle, why shouldn’t we race? “It’s outdated and old fashioned to think women can’t do it —professional sport is there to inspire.

"So many women watch the Tour de France and they should have the chance to be able to be inspired.

"It’s a marketing game, it’s about sponsorship and money and I know that. But the sponsors and authorities should see the dollar signs because there’s a huge growing market and it’s growing quickly."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/25/sport ... -de-france

rick_chasey

The problem with discussing gender equality in sport is that it very very quickly ends up getting caught up in the tension between social equality and the physical differences. There is no easy or straightforward answer to that. Nor are sports fans or sports governors the best people to judge.

It's easier to look at my own preferences with an honest eye.

I don't get that excited about most women's sports. I find women's football too slow and the quality too low. The same can be said for most team ball sports.

I used to enjoy women's tennis more than men's. It used to be more technical and less about power. Now it has swapped around.

I can get behind women's sport at the Olympics. Especially races.

Do I watch women's cycling at the worlds? No.

It's also important to note that not enjoying women's sport as much as men shouldn't be taken beyond sport. I'm not some misogynist. I'd love women's sport to be equal. But I doubt my preferences are that unique.

dougzz

Rick - Beach Volleyball, prefer men or the ladies?

EPO Delivery Man

Keyser__Soze wrote:

EPO Delivery Man wrote:

It doesnt matter what they come up with, the only way it would get on TV is if the Wiggle girls all rode nude and one of the teams was sponsored by Ann Summers.

Not entirely true. The women have been getting a fair bit of exposure on the ITV4 Tour Series when they have raced on the same day as the blokes and there seemed to be a lot more interest in the women's race at the Nocturne than the men's. The women's road and track races were popular with viewers at the Olympics with lots of posters on here commenting that the women's Oly RR was much more interesting than the men's. Companies such as Wiggle are realising this interest and sponsoring teams. There're some nonsensical UCI rules limiting the length of women's road races (alleged to be related to 'comfort breaks') which would prevent them doing entire stages but I'd like to see them be given at least the opportunity to make a go of it and do the last 2/3s or 3/4s of each stage, even if only for two of the three weeks.

Yeah i always fastforward the womens bit to get to the proper action.

Alitogata

madasahattersley wrote:

[...]

I really don't mean to offend anyone, but women's cycling will never be a large scale professional sport.

I don't get your point... I didn't know that there is a rule which says that professional races had to be only in large scale. :?

EPO Delivery Man

Look, lets just get to the heart of the matter.

Womens sport in general is pretty boring to watch, proof? Not even the average woman at home can be bothered to watch it. Proof? Ask your Mrs who Vos is then ask her who Wiggins is. I rest my case.

Talk all you want about specs, distance, blah blah blah. Nobody will watch it in their numbers. So in terms of funding and sponsorship its never going to get off the ground.

We can all do that human thing of skirting around the issue and 'pretending' we are interested in certain things to be politically correct but we all know deep down we arent, as is the case with womens cycling. Its nothing personal, its just the way it is. And to those who will say 'not true, i think its great' well good for you. Now go off and try to create a huge womens event from scratch based on your passion for it. You will quickly find you are in a massive minority with zero chance of making it happen. Proof? Would you remortgage your house to make it work?

Thought not.

Alitogata

Tom Butcher wrote:

I don't think anyone is expecting a full 3 week tour with 100 mile stages - in other words a mirror of what the men have. But a smaller version maybe mirroring a week of the Tour - possibly with shorter stages (for logistical reasons, not because women can't race 100 miles) most days - why not ? No ASO don't have an obligation to provide that - but the UCI do have an obligation to try and grow the women's side of the sport and one way to do that would be to work with ASO and other organisers.

[...]

It would be interesting to add here, that if TdF's stages were shorter anyway, there would be ( perhaps) less doping on men racers.. Because the length of the stages and the number of them, is the things that motive athletes to get doped in order to cope with the demands of the race..

TheBigBean

Two things I dislike about this:
(i) Comparison to the Olympics. Lots of people watched table tennis and handball at the Olympics. They watch the Olympics not the sport itself.
(ii) Women have played tennis almost since its creation. The first Wimbledon Championship for Ladies was in 1884 (7 years after the men's) and tennis grew in popularity because it was a great way to meet people of the opposite sex. It really doesn't compare to cycling.

Sport is a very good meritocracy and for a few lucky people it is a way of making a living; however, I always think the primary reason for doing sport is to enjoy it - not in the hope that someone else will pay you to do it.

All of that said, good luck to them, and if they can prove there is demand to watch it, it may well work.

Tom Butcher

EPO Delivery Man wrote:

Look, lets just get to the heart of the matter.

Womens sport in general is pretty boring to watch, proof? Not even the average woman at home can be bothered to watch it. Proof? Ask your Mrs who Vos is then ask her who Wiggins is. I rest my case.

Talk all you want about specs, distance, blah blah blah. Nobody will watch it in their numbers. So in terms of funding and sponsorship its never going to get off the ground.

We can all do that human thing of skirting around the issue and 'pretending' we are interested in certain things to be politically correct but we all know deep down we arent, as is the case with womens cycling. Its nothing personal, its just the way it is. And to those who will say 'not true, i think its great' well good for you. Now go off and try to create a huge womens event from scratch based on your passion for it. You will quickly find you are in a massive minority with zero chance of making it happen. Proof? Would you remortgage your house to make it work?

Thought not.

Basketball must be inherently boring because it hasn't taken off in the UK - or is it that football inherently boring because it hasn't taken off in the USA?

Just because a sport hasn't captured the public imagination doesn't mean it can't. There are social and historical reasons why some sports are popular in some places but these things aren't fixed.

joelsim

Basketball is inherently boring. 'Soccer' hasn't taken off in the US because they aren't World Champions of the World Series (as other countries also play this particular game).

One of the key elements to a sport doing well/capturing the public's imagination is getting to know the characters involved. I like watching football but am I interested in Detroit Galaxy or Los Angeles Rednecks? Nope, and nor will I ever be.

Sport is a soap opera (with an added sense of belonging), and that's why it works.

There's no reason why a women's Tour couldn't work but it would need help with financing, massive PR about the characters and a decent amount of time to establish. It's not something that will take off immediately (unless of course all riders were to wear an all-over Sky-style seethrough bodystocking and no underwear in which case...)

awavey

Tom Butcher wrote:

I don't think anyone is expecting a full 3 week tour with 100 mile stages - in other words a mirror of what the men have..

but thats exactly what the petition/letter calls for a womens TdF"...at the same time, over the same distances, on the same days" as the mens race, which is why in some ways its such a depressing way of tackling the very real inequality issues within the sport.

morstar

Joelsim wrote:

There's no reason why a women's Tour couldn't work but it would need help with financing, massive PR about the characters and a decent amount of time to establish. It's not something that will take off immediately

Even then it's not guaranteed to work. I used two examples earlier, UK ice hockey and UK grid iron. All the money in the world won't make a sport popular in a sustainable way. Both these examples had massive amounts of money thrown at them and they thrived for short 'bubble' periods before the lack of emotional connection amongst other things saw interest wane. Contrived rivalries and lack of grass roots links are very transparent no matter what the marketeers tell the public.
If womens pro cycling was in a really healthy state and regularly competitive with broad strength in depth, it could benefit from investment and somebody taking a chance on giving it more exposure right now. If that's not the case and you invest at the top level now, people will quickly switch off.
Personally, I don't think its' s ready for the investment yet. Too few truly elite women out there which is symptomatic of the lack of participants at all levels. If I was investing in womens cycling right now, I'd be trying to build a really healthy domestic scene where domestic pros could make a modest living wage. I'd only do this if the governing body was fully on board and had a plan and similar initiatives were happening in other nations. If multiple nations had a healthy core of full time female athletes then the best of these riders would surely be delivering some great international races. A marquee womens event would surely then create real demand.

squired

The biggest problem is that the main group of people interested in sport are men. One only has to look at internet viewing habits. How often do you walk past the desk of a woman and see her reading a sports related page? Another example is magazines. There are vast arrays of magazines on sport, mainly purchased by men. Even the lads mags have sections on sport. Do the popular female magazines? I think we all know the answer to that.

England has a very good female cricket team. They are often live on Sky Sports, so get decent coverage. Do women turn up in their droves to watch it? Do men rush home to watch it? No on both fronts. At the same time, the BBC has, I believe, been showing a female football tournament (Euro Championships) quite extensively in recent days/weeks. Despite being given plenty of airtime I bet the viewing figures were awful, despite football being the number one sport in England by a long way.

Talk of sporting equality is great, but it is unrealistic. There are very few sports where women in their own rights are at a standard equal to or better than men. One that does spring to mind is gymnastics, where the women are simply amazing. Female tennis certainly has financial equality (one could argue that the women are actually better paid given the number of sets they play), but I'm yet to meet a single woman in England that knows more about female tennis than what happens on the grass courts of Wimbledon each summer. I'm sure there are plenty of hardcore female tennis players who do, but for any sport to be truly successful it needs to grab the attention of the casual fan. The same is true of cycling. If a female Tour de France was launched would we suddenly see thousands of female fans lining the roads of alpine passes, or would it just be a smaller subset of those turning up each year in July to watch the men?

Tom Butcher

awavey wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

I don't think anyone is expecting a full 3 week tour with 100 mile stages - in other words a mirror of what the men have..

but thats exactly what the petition/letter calls for a womens TdF"...at the same time, over the same distances, on the same days" as the mens race, which is why in some ways its such a depressing way of tackling the very real inequality issues within the sport.

Yes you are right - but From other stuff people like Pooley have said it's clear they know that's not going to happen but they think something wwould be an advance on the nothing they have now.

sbbefc

Would I travel all the way to France to watch a womans TdF? No

Would I stick around to watch the woman's TdF if it was held on the same day as the mens? Most probably yes

That's the problem, for it to be financially viable it needs to be run on the same days as the men's event, is that logistically viable, perhaps.

Richmond Racer

I'm a female. I love most sports, though cycling most of all. I've followed men's racing for years, and continue to love even with all the bloody things its thrown at us. I've been inspired and entertained by individuals and team performances at times, and thrown things in fury at the telly at other times.

Would I happily watch from the roadside a women's TdF go by, a couple of hours ahead of the men? Sure, it'd all add to the entertainment of a long afternoon waiting on a climb.

Would I prioritise going to watch the women over the men, given the choice? No, not in a month of Sundays.

Would I spend yet more time watching feeds of the women's race as well? Frankly no, I probably spend too much time watching cycling as it is, and I'm not going to choose the women's racing over the men's.

So in a nutshell, a women's TdF isnt going to draw me in as a spectator unless I'm at the roadside already.

iainf72

I wouldn't watch it.

Like RR, I spent too much time watching cycling anyway so I need to use my time investment wisely and I'd use that on mens racing

Turfle

Come on, there are literally hours every day with no cycling on! And a fair chunk of that is filled with reading/typing about what cycling has happened and will happen.

I could definitely fit an entire calendar of women's cycling in without it changing my life dramatically.

Richmond Racer

Turfle wrote:

Come on, there are literally hours every day with no cycling on! And a fair chunk of that is filled with reading/typing about what cycling has happened and will happen.

I could definitely fit an entire calendar of women's cycling in without it changing my life dramatically.

Holy shoot, Turfle, how would you do it? I mean, seriously?

Turfle

It wards off the loneliness.

Actually it's a combination of working from home (at night), and most of my free-time coming when others are busy at work. So many hours to fill.

richard_farrant

I think the people behind the petition should put their attention to promoting the existing events so that more people/sponsors take notice rather than campaign for a new event. Once the interest has grown the money will be there to fund new events, maybe ITV4 should make a big deal out of the Giro Rosa next year, the as well as the female ToB could be a good test of the marketability of new events?

Richmond Racer

Someone like Guy Elliott of Sweetspot - here talking about next year's new 5 day stage race in UK for women - seems to have a decent approach to launching a new women's race

http://road.cc/content/news/89427-women ... and-venues

PuttyKnees

Strength in depth? If you'd been at the recent youth national circuit races or the recent youth omniums you would have seen a massive upsurge in female participation in cycling. At every single point, we come up against the same arguments and the same entrenched values. It's almost depressing to read it. Yes men are more likely to be interested in sport, but that's a cultural position not an inherent one. Just check out the history of women's football - women weren't allowed to play on the association's grounds after 1921. Is it any surprise it struggled? There are many similar examples. I support their ambition. I doubt it will happen until all the old diehard duffers are cleared out from the governing bodies though.

Tom Butcher

There is nothing intrinsic in women's cycling that makes it less interesting than men's. if the races had the same history, we knew the riders' stories, etc then it would be as good. The idea of piggybacking onto mens racing is to borrow some of the prestige, fan support and history of events like the TdF, Flanders etc which standalone women's races don't have. It makes more sense to do that than try and reinvent the wheel by building up new and distinct womens events.

morstar

PuttyKnees wrote:

Strength in depth? If you'd been at the recent youth national circuit races or the recent youth omniums you would have seen a massive upsurge in female participation in cycling.

This is great. Together with a plan for progression and then launching a big marquee event in a few years is surely a recipe for success. At the moment, the picture you portray doesn't follow through to the Elite level.

Look at the success of BC olympic programme. Came to fruition fully in 2008 but how many years prior did it start?

dilemna

Would this mean podium boys? You couldn't have podium girls kissing female riders, could you :? ?

I'm all for a womens' TdF. Would they ride the same route and therefore distance and get the same prize money and bonuses etc?

There would need to be a new jersey for Queen of the Mountain and would the Queen be subservient to the King of the Mountain? Just a thought.

EPO Delivery Man

Richmond Racer wrote:

I'm a female. I love most sports, though cycling most of all. I've followed men's racing for years, and continue to love even with all the bloody things its thrown at us. I've been inspired and entertained by individuals and team performances at times, and thrown things in fury at the telly at other times.

Would I happily watch from the roadside a women's TdF go by, a couple of hours ahead of the men? Sure, it'd all add to the entertainment of a long afternoon waiting on a climb.

Would I prioritise going to watch the women over the men, given the choice? No, not in a month of Sundays.

Would I spend yet more time watching feeds of the women's race as well? Frankly no, I probably spend too much time watching cycling as it is, and I'm not going to choose the women's racing over the men's.

So in a nutshell, a women's TdF isnt going to draw me in as a spectator unless I'm at the roadside already.

Youre a female? You fit? 8) :twisted: